What's with the Leper Upgrade for Nurgle? Does it mean, that Nurgle can Summon every Cultist once per turn for free, or can once per turn Summon one Cultist for free?

borg029un03 said:

He can summon EACH Cultist for free once per turn IF he summons them to a region that has no other Nugle figures in it. So you could move all 6 of your Cultists for free if there were enough vacant (of your followers) regions.

I'll be happy when they give us the FAQ. I don't believe it will be 2+ with a noble for Slaanesh honestly because there continues to be references about how easy their threat condition is and nothing anywhere mentions 2+ with a noble. Even the old way, Slaanesh has won 0 games in our group due to everyone ganging up on them and Khorne earily, which in turn causes them to advance more slowly and the game becomes about control rather then a race.

Now, if they do reply that it is 2+ in a Region, then I'll play by the rules, I just realy want to know what the rules are rather then continuing to leap to conclusions. I do love the simple elagence of this game though. It reminds me a lot of Diplomacy in that it can cause tempers to flare though

SideshowLucifer said:

Well, Slaanesh seems to be the best power in our group, playing with the 2 or more +noble condition for him and 2 or more kills in a region for Khorne. I notice Khorne seems a little underpowered with these changes - maybe we should include peasant tokens?

With the redressed rules, Nurgle seems about the same, maybe a bit better, and Tzeentch suddenly has a real chance of victory

I agree with those already posted who said peasants don't count for Khorne kills as written - they are plainly not figures

phobiandarkmoon said:

Well, the rulebook also says 2+ kills for enemy creatures in a region for Khorne. Maybe we've been playing it wrong, but I feel it's the only way for Khorne to compete with the other powers, especially in a 3 player game when Nurgle isn't playing. Slaanesh and Tzeentch use tokens to advance their dials, so it seems to reason Khorne should be allowed as well.

Well I'm not sure oh Khorne. On page 15 the rulebook clearly states that Peasent Tokens and Enemy Figures are not the same thing. Under Assigning Hits, "..The player simply announces, for each hit, which enemy figure, or Peasent Token, he is targeting."

If Peasent tokens counted as enemy figures, then I don't think they would need to differ them. Also, enemy figures are defined as plastic models where as Peasent Tokens are grouped in Old World Tokens.

I'm hoping that if they make Slaanesh have to have 2+ tokens with nobles that they also count heroes since they seem to have as much synergy with them they do the nobles. Until I get an FAQ though, I have to play by te written rules, which are on the cards at the moment.

The Slaanesh dial condition includes Heroes as well. Says so on the card I believe.

I know I know the card isn't technically right, but the ruling from my understanding is 2+ corruption tokens in a region per phase with a Noble or Hero.

mylastnerv said:

Yes, that is the current ruling. I am nort sure why people are so resistent to that. This thread is a collection of official responses. FFG has stickied this thread so that it can be visible as the "official" thread. I understand wanting a nice looking FAQ answer sheet to print off and show their doubting friends. But the answers there are going to be the answers here.

When using Changer of Ways to cancel another card's Text Effect, does it reverse an immediate effect that already happened?

Example 1: Khorne plays The Blood God's Call in Norsca and moves two figures to the region. Tzeentch plays Changer of Ways in Norsca. Do Khorne's figures go back to where they came from, or do they stay?

Example 2: Tzeentch plays Teleport in The Empire and moves a cultist to The Badlands. Other Gods begin to place figures in The Badlands so Tzeentch plays Changer of Ways in The Empire. Does his cultist come back to The Empire?

It seems that Changer of Ways would have a similar effect on the following cards: All Things Decay (Nurgle), The Meddling of Skaven (Tzeentch), Teleport (T), The Blood God's Call (Khorne), Dark Influence (Slaanesh), Degenerate Royalty (S), Soporific Musk (S), and Perverse Infiltration (S).

Thank you in advance!

I thought up a few more followups to the above question:

1) Does the Changer of the Ways card cancel effects that move Old World Tokens on the board, such as Dark influence?

Example: Dark Influence is played in Norsca and the Slaneesh player moves a Hero token from Norsca to The Empire. Changer of the Ways was played afterwards (in the same summoning phase), would it return the Hero token to Norsca?

2) Does Changer of the Ways cancel effects of cards that place or remove corruption tokens during the summoning phase?

Example: The Nurgle player places the All Things Decay card in Norsca and removes one Khorne corruption token. Later during the same summoning phase the Tzeentch player plays Changer of the Ways in Norsca. Does the Khorne corruption token get placed back on the board in Norsca?

3) If a figure is moved by a chaos card, then subsequently in the same summoning phase moved again to another region through any means would Changer of the Ways still reverse all of the effects of the original summoning chaos card.

Example: Khorne plays The Blood God's Call, moving 2 Bloodletter figures from The Empire to Norsca. In his next turn during the same summoning phase Khorne summons one of those bloodletters out of Norsca to Kislev. If Changer of the Ways is played in Norsca later during that summoning phase are both Bloodletters returned to The Empire?

4) If Changer of the Ways is played in a region, does it cancel the effect of a card played afterwards in the second slot of that region during the same summoning phase?

To the Changer of Ways questions above:

If an immediate effect happens, it has already resolve. The text effect it is referring to is one that would occur later in the turn.

So, and this only going by my own interpretation, no. To all the scenarios listed except for 4, where I would assume it does.

Degenerate Royalty doesn't -have- a text effect - it only counts for domination, and Changer of Ways doesn't remove the card from the slot, so it still counts for pretty much definite.

"Text effect" in the rules glossary is defined as: "The portion of a Chaos card that describes, in plain english, what it does." The diagram on page 13 that describes the Chaos cards indicates that "text effects" refers to the entire central section of every card containing "The special game effect this card has". In other words, to not have a "text effect" using the given definitions, the card should be devoid of any description of what it does.

With that definition in mind the Changer of Ways Chaos card's text effect is: "The text effects of all other chaos cards in this region are cancelled." The cards should all have text effects, should all still be in the the region they were played in until at least the end phase of that turn (Not even Changer of Ways should be removing any cards from a region prior to the ending phase of a turn), and Changer of Ways explicitly says it cancels the text effects of ALL chaos cards in the region without specifying any further restrictions. Our confusion comes more from what the intended scope of "cancelled" is and whether moves made through card effects during the summoning phase are considered "resolved" when they are made or are up for reversal through cancellation before the summoning phase ends.

After all, in any of those situations the figures/tokens/etc. that were moved by the first chaos card could still be moved to other regions during the same summoning phase by either simply summoning them to another legal destination for the normal point cost or playing additional chaos cards with an identical effect. Example: The Tzeentch player uses a Teleport chaos card placed in The Empire to send an acolyte from The Empire to Norsca. After Slaanesh, Khorne, and Nurgle each place a figure he decides he no longer wants the acolyte in Norsca and plays a second Teleport card to send the same acolyte from Norsca back to The Empire again. If you can effectively reverse the text effect of the original Teleport card with another Teleport card in this manner, can you do the same with a Changer of the Ways card that "cancelled" the original Teleport card's effect of moving the figure?

CoW only cancels text. If the text already happened (as a lot of cards are reseolved as soon as they are placed), then nothing happens. So if you had a card that says this:

When you play this card, immediately move up to two of your figures to this region from any other region or regions.

CoW cancels that text like normal, but it has no further effect because the card was already played and already resolved. If CoW was played first , and then Khorne's card was played, it would be cancelled as it is played and no figures would be moved. The only efffect remaining on the card is teh printed value for the domination step and the fact the 2nd card slot is now taken up.

So anything that has not yet been resolved or is an ongoing effect, would be cancelled for the remainder of the round.

As to your specific: Exampl1 1: No effect as the tokens already moved. If CoW was played first, then DI would not be resolved if it was played 2nd.

Example 2: Again, the card was already played, nothing gets reversed. So no effect in your example.

Ex 3: NO!

Ex 4. YES! This is the intent of the card. It does not change the past. It only cancels the present and future.

ColtsFan76 said:

He is right on the money with this.

If it matters, we got an email back from our questions that we sent from the store. They explained that the cards are correct and that they where changed for balance reasons after the rulebooks where already sent to print. With conflicting reports now, I'm honestly horribly confused.

SideshowLucifer said:

That truly baffles me as well now.

Guess we just have to wait for an official FAQ to clear things up. Hope one shows up soon.

ColtsFan76 said:

It is made even more baffling by the fact that the rulebook has photos of the Khorne sheet with the "one or more" wording on it. BTW, I was thinking about it, and if you really want to stretch the mind a bit, the rule in the rulebook and the rule on Khorne's sheet don't necessarily have to be conflicting...

Think of it this way... Rulebook: Kill 2 or more in a region. Card: Kill 1 or more in the same region in the same phase. You *could* take the card to mean kill 1 or more in the same region [as one already killed]. Basically reading into the "same region" as having an implied "well yeah you already had to kill one in that region for the '1 or more' to be in the same region this phase" Yes it is a serious stretch of the mind, but you could convince yourself of it if you try hard enough. And squint.

KallistiBRC said:

That doesn't bother me as much. I assume the rulebook is written in text form, with the examples, early on in the development process. Once the componetns go to production, then the graphics department uploads the current pics into the working copy of the rules and puts it all together.

I got an email back from FFG that basically said they are doing a team huddle to get their answers consistent. I was also told an FAQ might be up next week.

Awesome. FFG is normally really fast with their FAQs . . . look at how fast the turnaround was on the Pegasus FAQ.

ColtsFan76 said:

Outstanding. FFG is usualy realy good at customer relations and getting FAQ's out. Look forward to it. Hopefuly it will be up when I get back in town.

FWIW in case any FFG people are watching this thread, I really think the 2+ kills requirement for Khorne is too high.

To compare, each of the other 3 powers (assuming Slaanesh is indeed 2+ corruption to get his bonus) needs to spend 2 power to get his DAC (dial advancement counter), just to place the 2 cultists required, and there will be several regions on the starting board whcih they can target (Tzeentch will have to augment with spells of course, so has the toughest task of the 3).

Khorne, on the other hand, has to place 2 warriors (or his greater daemon) on top of cultists to have a decent chance to get his points. This is difficult in the first turn (significant in a game that might only last 4-6 turns), and more generally costs 3-4 power rather than 2. It is also arguably true (and I would certainly argue it) that Khorne is more likely to be foiled in his attempt to score these DACs than any other player, since the other powers will be directly challenged by his placement and seek to fight back/evade/cancel his attack (and all of the other 3 players have cards whiose primary use is to foil an attack).

Additionally, Khorne is more likely to have to spend those points again--after a battle his warriors are likely to need to be re-summoned, either due to death or a lack of targets. Cultists can just sit in a region harvesting DACs until someone (usually Khorne) comes to stop them.

So to conclude PLEASE think very carefully about balance issues before deciding Khorne needs 2+ just for symmetry with the others--I really can't believe that play balance requires it.

I have a feeling that they are going to go with the 1+ on Khorne as we have had too many instances of FFG saying the cards are correct as printed.

What I am more concerned with is they give Slaanesh the 1+ condition as well. I think it is too easy for him to win with this option and he seems to win enough with the 2+ corruption as it is.

However, I hope that whatever they decide it is based on the playtesting records. Whatever the outcome, if they think that is the most balanced means of playing that god, then I will play it that way and adjust my strategied accordingly. I think I can play a decent game with Khorne if they go with the 2+ option. I also think I can make decent strategies for the other 3 if Slaanesh gets reduced to the 1+.

As I mentioned elsewhere, I just want this resolved quickly so I can get back to playing this great game. Right now, I am hesistant to keep playing until I know the right way. And when a game goes back in the storage tub at my house, it tends to stay there longer than it should.

Yeah, I'm just waiting for the stance FFG is taking on all the questions and once the official FAQ/Errata is out everyone will just have to suck it up and play the game the way it was meant to be played.

Isnt this such an important part of the game that FFG should just post a quick answer here rather then waiting for a professional looking errata sheet?

Playing my 1st game next weekend, i hope theres an answer before then, but from reading this and other threads i will play Slannesh as +2, not sure on Khorne yet.