hey again everyone! I'm sure you're all getting sick of my questions here, but you're all extremely helpful and i thank you for that.

i just had a little question about the are magnus, Umbra: Attack of Shadows, it allows a character to use their shadow as a weapon, and it defines what it has for speed, fort, damage, etc. and that for all intents and purposes it counts as a unique weapon that he can materialize at will. my question is can noah's ability Equipment, affect Umbra? giving it +10 quality. because you chart it out just like you would any normal weapon. so what?

i personally think it would count, theres nothing saying that it doesn't? i just wanted your thoughts, or something i obviously missed thats says i can't.

once again, thanks.

Definitely hard to determine but I would be willing to say it does. Cause like you said, nothing preventing it from doing so.

i am being told by one person that since it doesn't say "benefits from quality" it wouldn't count. and I'm being told by some other person. that since it doesn't have a starting quality it can't get qualities. which doesn't make sense, everything counts as quality +0 as far as i know. (for example equipment turns everything into +10, so i could have a +10 bowl, even though bowls dont have a quality per say, they still benefit). and lastly a third one saying that Equipment effects everything and that it would work.

so either we all come to a consensus. find a ruling. or leave it up to the GM

You are correct in stating that all items have quality, the creators probably just didn't see any need to label all normal items as 0 quality because it would get really repetitive. When you assign something a + or - quality value you are simply stating that it is better or worse quality than usual. In fact the equipment ability does not affect artifacts with a pre-existing quality bonus so the fact that shadow weapons do not possess any quality bonuses supports the use of Noah with them.

As much as I love Elan, especially Noah's for the +10 Quality, I would not allow it to apply to Umbra, just like I would not let it apply to Ki Generated Weapons of items created from the "Energy" Psychic Tree. These items are created, and sustained, through the use of the soul and the use of the mind, so are already "imbued" so to speak.

In fact the equipment ability does not affect artifacts with a pre-existing quality bonus so the fact that shadow weapons do not possess any quality bonuses supports the use of Noah with them.

While I think that every GM is free to choose one way or the other, I have to disagree with this. In my opinion, Umbra should be considered a +25 weapon, since it is a shadow of Supernaturally Masterful Quality.

Would have to agree with Nurddude on this, but like he said every GM is free to choose one way or the other. So it would be up to GM's interpretation based on the situation. So scratch my previous comment,

Though saying +25 is a bit excessive.

Though saying +25 is a bit excessive.

Eh, I was mostly just trying to illustrate how that if +5 is "Masterful" and +10 is "Legendary," (I think that is how they are referred to) then a shadow that is taking on solid yet malleable form is definitely a few levels above that.

Well anything +20 is already considered magical, +25 are the rarest of the rares pretty much from what I've come to understand.

This is true. Anyway, weather or not the shadow is +25, I would rule that Umbra would not benefit from the Equipment Elan Ability. However, I would not object to a Magister that allows a user to spend Ki for a temporary Quality boost.