As long as I don't have to
have all mini's painted in order to play
, I'm probably good
jh
Awesome posting from RPGnet about WFRP3 - don't miss this!
This sounds really cool - nice to get a really good summary of the seminars - my confidence in the new approach is rising steadily.
42!
As asked in an earlier discussion; question is, can you make a band of let's say 4 Witch Hunters or are the cards to specific for this?
I don't hope that FFG has added in restrictions like this unawares...
DagobahDave said:
Four: every character has a "Stance" track with a conservative side and a reckless side to it that affects all their abilities and spells that they use based on which side of the track they are currently choosing to be on (and yes you can change which stance you are in often - usually every round). Different careers have different amounts of conservative vs reckless on their track and how far out on on one side or the other you currently are will have a greater affect on how things work out. It should be noted that all abilities and all spells have both a conservative and an aggressive version which have their own bnefits and drawbacks and they are handily summarized on opposite sides of their cards.
This mechanic sounds an awful lot like Arkham, where you have to set all your points every turn.
DagobahDave said:
Seven: The reason the careers are on cards is so that as more careers are added you just slip them in the career deck and have them all in one place rather than scattered over multiple books and supplements. Ditto for ability cards and spell cards.
So are they not in the books? that's my question. better hope we don't lose a card.
Captin' said:
Hey! I found another thing to complain about! Theese boxes. We need boxes to keep our characters in? This is UNBELIEVABLY unpractical! In 2nd i only needed 2 sheets of paper. So if we want to play anywhere else we need to carry around these BOXES? AAARGH!!!
Get used to it. Previous threads have essentially stated that all releases planned at the moment are boxed sets.
I imagine a campaign box would have a few new careers, a whole slew of NPC career cards, Monster cards, new spell and skill cards, maybe some new dice.
Seriously, how many decks are there to keep track of now. Has anybody played Descent Road to Legend? Fun game, but the card decks are out of control. Its a matter of time, I tell you.
CHERNOBYL: This mechanic sounds an awful lot like Arkham, where you have to set all your points every turn.
A few other people have noticed that, but I've never played it. Anybody care to explain how Arkham does it?
CHERNOBYL: So are they [cards] not in the books? that's my question. better hope we don't lose a card.
I'd really like to know that, too. I think it was Hellebore on the Strike-to-Stun forum who wanted to know how NPCs are handled. Are they on cards? Are they in books? How detailed are NPCs? Are there going to be NPC party cards, just like for PCs? Maybe they use the same cards?
The bigest downside to the Career Cards is they still wont have cohesive entries and exists (assuming they even exist anymore), which was one of the bigest complaints about the Career Compenduim (though thinking about it with the release of third ed thats likely got all the PC careers in it anyway.)
Im also curious about recording advances, since presumably you dont want to write on the character cards themselves, and if its tokesn or some such what if one gets lost, do you loose an advance then?
Other than there being 300+ cards for 4 players
(thats about 75 cards per player
),
The other issue is that I cant see the cards handling house rules so its basicaly raw only
, which is a big negative for an RPG since almost every RPG GM I know tinkers with the rules at least a little.
Loswaith said:
Im also curious about recording advances, since presumably you dont want to write on the character cards themselves, and if its tokesn or some such what if one gets lost, do you loose an advance then?
Maybe, just guessing, but that is what the character sheet is for among other things?
I don't understand why some people see cards as the end of RPGs. I always found cards to be a more elegant solution than tables. Basically, whatever you could do in early RPGs with a table you can do it quicker and easier with a deck of cards... this means you'll have more time to roleplay, not less. I even have created my own decks of cards for my Warhammer 2nd edition campaigns, and I have experience using card products for RPGS (Paizo has produced very cool ones for D&D 3.5, for example). In general, I have found they diminish the amount of time wasted in-game looking up rules in the books.
And for those of you out there reading this, I'm 35 and have played and GMed a lot of RPGs: Rolemaster (which I liked a lot, but which tables were too time consuming), MERP, Call of Cthulhu, D&D (all editions), Warhammer (all editions), Paranoia, Runequest, GURPS, Mechwarrior, Alternity, etc... so I do know what RPGs are.
As for house rules, it is as easy as photocopying the card and writing down in the copy whatever changes you want to make... come on, people, any RPG gamer is resourceful enough to think a myriad solutions to this. Probably FFG will even include a couple empty cards for us to write our new rules (at least they do that with most of their other games).
I must say I'm very excited about this game and it'll sure revive Warhammer Fantasy RP even more than the wonderful 2nd edition did! Thanks, FFG for brightening up even more this summer (after your announcements of Middle Earth Quest and Chaos in the Old World I did not think you could give me an even better surprise).
Dreary_Angel said:
Captin' said:
Dreary_Angel said:
Captin' said:
Hey! I found another thing to complain about! Theese boxes. We need boxes to keep our characters in? This is UNBELIEVABLY unpractical! In 2nd i only needed 2 sheets of paper. So if we want to play anywhere else we need to carry around these BOXES? AAARGH!!!
Captin' said:
Hey! I found another thing to complain about! Theese boxes. We need boxes to keep our characters in? This is UNBELIEVABLY unpractical! In 2nd i only needed 2 sheets of paper. So if we want to play anywhere else we need to carry around these BOXES? AAARGH!!!
ok, please, tell me this was just sarcastic...
i mean supposely when you go around to play with 2ed you take a bag or a backpack right?
with 3ed nothing stops you from leaving home all the carreer cards and other stuff you do not need, and i really don't think the stuff you'll have to take with you will take more space than all the books and other stuff you already have to carry with 2ed...
Are YOU being sarcastic? All you need to carry around in 2nd edition is a book, a few peces of paper, a pen and some dice. Other books are optional, and that's all there is. A giant box full of cards is QUITE a bit more to carry around.
And not to mention that you could never play this game without a table. My party doesn't have a table within reach at all times, and this is forcing all the players to be gathered around one with this "party pool" and whatever.
Captin' said:
Dreary_Angel said:
Captin' said:
Hey! I found another thing to complain about! Theese boxes. We need boxes to keep our characters in? This is UNBELIEVABLY unpractical! In 2nd i only needed 2 sheets of paper. So if we want to play anywhere else we need to carry around these BOXES? AAARGH!!!
Captin' said:
Hey! I found another thing to complain about! Theese boxes. We need boxes to keep our characters in? This is UNBELIEVABLY unpractical! In 2nd i only needed 2 sheets of paper. So if we want to play anywhere else we need to carry around these BOXES? AAARGH!!!
ok, please, tell me this was just sarcastic...
i mean supposely when you go around to play with 2ed you take a bag or a backpack right?
with 3ed nothing stops you from leaving home all the carreer cards and other stuff you do not need, and i really don't think the stuff you'll have to take with you will take more space than all the books and other stuff you already have to carry with 2ed...
Are YOU being sarcastic? All you need to carry around in 2nd edition is a book, a few peces of paper, a pen and some dice. Other books are optional, and that's all there is. A giant box full of cards is QUITE a bit more to carry around.
And not to mention that you could never play this game without a table. My party doesn't have a table within reach at all times, and this is forcing all the players to be gathered around one with this "party pool" and whatever.
You do realize the amaount of space needed is the same right? I mean, they're not table-size cards, they're just the size of normal playcards... i bet they'll take more or less the same amount of space as your normal pieces of paper... more than that what do you have to carry? the custom dices? you already carry dices with you, you just have to replace your normal ones with the custom. The books? somewhere has been said they'll be between 98 and 120 pages, not a big deal in space taken imho...
Miore than this you have nothing, the "Character Boxee" are just somethin you can use, you are not forced to use them...
About the ABSOLUTE NEED of a table you can go on doing exactly as you have done so far, since you do not have miniatures or a board to use... the "party pool" can be just held by one of the players or by the GM... i really do not see the tragedy...
I do not what to seem someone who has to defend this game from every attach, but these are just poor objection...
Everything is just in my opinion, i would like to point this out really well, i do not speak of unquestionable thruth...
Dreary_Angel said:
Captin' said:
Dreary_Angel said:
Captin' said:
Hey! I found another thing to complain about! Theese boxes. We need boxes to keep our characters in? This is UNBELIEVABLY unpractical! In 2nd i only needed 2 sheets of paper. So if we want to play anywhere else we need to carry around these BOXES? AAARGH!!!
Captin' said:
Hey! I found another thing to complain about! Theese boxes. We need boxes to keep our characters in? This is UNBELIEVABLY unpractical! In 2nd i only needed 2 sheets of paper. So if we want to play anywhere else we need to carry around these BOXES? AAARGH!!!
ok, please, tell me this was just sarcastic...
i mean supposely when you go around to play with 2ed you take a bag or a backpack right?
with 3ed nothing stops you from leaving home all the carreer cards and other stuff you do not need, and i really don't think the stuff you'll have to take with you will take more space than all the books and other stuff you already have to carry with 2ed...
Are YOU being sarcastic? All you need to carry around in 2nd edition is a book, a few peces of paper, a pen and some dice. Other books are optional, and that's all there is. A giant box full of cards is QUITE a bit more to carry around.
And not to mention that you could never play this game without a table. My party doesn't have a table within reach at all times, and this is forcing all the players to be gathered around one with this "party pool" and whatever.
Captin' said:
Dreary_Angel said:
Captin' said:
Hey! I found another thing to complain about! Theese boxes. We need boxes to keep our characters in? This is UNBELIEVABLY unpractical! In 2nd i only needed 2 sheets of paper. So if we want to play anywhere else we need to carry around these BOXES? AAARGH!!!
Captin' said:
Hey! I found another thing to complain about! Theese boxes. We need boxes to keep our characters in? This is UNBELIEVABLY unpractical! In 2nd i only needed 2 sheets of paper. So if we want to play anywhere else we need to carry around these BOXES? AAARGH!!!
ok, please, tell me this was just sarcastic...
i mean supposely when you go around to play with 2ed you take a bag or a backpack right?
with 3ed nothing stops you from leaving home all the carreer cards and other stuff you do not need, and i really don't think the stuff you'll have to take with you will take more space than all the books and other stuff you already have to carry with 2ed...
Are YOU being sarcastic? All you need to carry around in 2nd edition is a book, a few peces of paper, a pen and some dice. Other books are optional, and that's all there is. A giant box full of cards is QUITE a bit more to carry around.
And not to mention that you could never play this game without a table. My party doesn't have a table within reach at all times, and this is forcing all the players to be gathered around one with this "party pool" and whatever.
You do realize the amaount of space needed is the same right? I mean, they're not table-size cards, they're just the size of normal playcards... i bet they'll take more or less the same amount of space as your normal pieces of paper... more than that what do you have to carry? the custom dices? you already carry dices with you, you just have to replace your normal ones with the custom. The books? somewhere has been said they'll be between 98 and 120 pages, not a big deal in space taken imho...
Miore than this you have nothing, the "Character Boxee" are just somethin you can use, you are not forced to use them...
About the ABSOLUTE NEED of a table you can go on doing exactly as you have done so far, since you do not have miniatures or a board to use... the "party pool" can be just held by one of the players or by the GM... i really do not see the tragedy...
I do not what to seem someone who has to defend this game from every attach, but these are just poor objection...
Everything is just in my opinion, i would like to point this out really well, i do not speak of unquestionable thruth...
3 books, a party sheet, 3 character boxes and 3 00+ cards takes a lot more space then one book and 6 pieces of papers. This isn't opinion, this is fact. You can put all the character sheest between the pages of the core book, thus you only have to carry around the space of one book. You s icarrycan't do that with boxes and 300+ cards. And the die you can alwayn your pocket in both situations.
DagobahDave said:
CHERNOBYL: This mechanic sounds an awful lot like Arkham, where you have to set all your points every turn.
A few other people have noticed that, but I've never played it. Anybody care to explain how Arkham does it?
Ironically, it was playing Arkham Horror that made me start my current experiment into dice pool playing for Warhammer FRP. In fact, nearly every one of the points listed into the original post are addressing areas I was unhappy about in my current WHFRP v2 Campaign, and was trying to work out new mechanics and ideas. Wound cards was a biggie - and just generally reference materials for the players.
I never thought about using a stance/attitude/approach way like in Arkham though. In Arkham a character has 6 skills in 3 pairs (Speed/Sneak, Fight/Will, Lore/Luck) and each turn he can adjust each pair, but if one in a pair is raised, the other one drops (increase speed and sneak drops or vice versa).
I do like the sound of this WHFRPv3 approach though. I'm a great believer in players not needing to know the rules and play to them - the rules should be there to give players faith in the GM and enable them to resolve situations seamlessly, not much more. I currently play with some people who are not very experienced role-players and they will describe things like (using combat as it's often an obvious example) "OK, I'll try to beat him back but I'm being careful, i don't want to leave myself open", or "Sod it, I'll just wail into 'im" and the more transparantly you can translate that into game terms and resolve it, the better in my book. Be interesting to see how this works out.
What's wrong with all these cards and the dice etc. is that it all leads to less roleplaying, simply because the players will think 'I need this card or that to improve my skill/chance/whatever', or 'I need to roll 5 axes/whatever to beat him' and so on. It leads to board game mentality even if the game is NOT A BOARD GAME! (methinks mylady protests too much...) So instead of thinking through your character you think through what's on the table aka. shiny bits. The same thing can happen if you use minis with RPGs, you begin to think the combat as a miniature game instead of actually concentrating on what your character is experiencing. All this is very bad for roleplaying, hmkay?
I am not even going to start with the commercial nastyness of it all... but simply think about how many sets of dice and cards you're going to be forced to buy as 'ultra-necessary' expansions. It's the Magic the Gathering effect. It's gonna be stupidly expensive, stupid for the gamers that is.
But I feel this is going to be a losing battle, arguing against the game. It seems this forum will be flooded with perky and positive posts, no doubt paid by FFG. So let the propaganda and brain washing commence. I'd like to say I will never buy and FFG product again, but alas I think I am going to by Rogue Trader. At least that's a proper roleplaing, one hopes.
Captin' said:
This is horrible news! What if i have 2 players who wan't to play the same class? Or an entire party! And a bloody deck where i draw cards from? And you say this is NOT a board game? Then it is a card game, for it has cards. Argue that all you want.
OMG!!!
YOU
MAKE A
PHOTOCOPY!!!
Ron B. Stard said:
What's wrong with all these cards and the dice etc. is that it all leads to less roleplaying, simply because the players will think 'I need this card or that to improve my skill/chance/whatever', or 'I need to roll 5 axes/whatever to beat him' and so on. It leads to board game mentality even if the game is NOT A BOARD GAME!
You can't be serious ! You could say this to ANY games then: "I need to roll lower than my WS 45 to beat him." Same situation if you focus on a must-roll-dontgivash*taboutelse attitude it does not matter if you roll numbers or symbols. Its not really the fault of a rule or props or cards or whatever you name it. Its the problem of the ppl who play with it then. Sticking to the fight example: my gamers always like to describe what they want to do when it comes to rolling dice in combat no matter what system or game we are using that time. So I for one dont see a problem with rolling symbols instead of numbers. Its the people not the dice that tell the final story.
What's wrong with all these cards and the dice etc. is that it all leads to less roleplaying, simply because the players will think 'I need this card or that to improve my skill/chance/whatever', or 'I need to roll 5 axes/whatever to beat him' and so on.
How is 'I need to roll 5 axes/whatever to beat him' different from 'I need to roll under 37 to beat him' in terms of how much or little it makes you roleplay? And seeing as the cards seems to be comparable to Talents and Skills wouldn't we have the same problem today; players thinking 'I need this Talent/skill to improve my skill/chance/whater' (actually, depending on the player that's a problem that'll never go away no matter the system).
It just seems to me that a lot of people are complaining about having a clearer and more easily understandable User Interface.
But I feel this is going to be a losing battle, arguing against the game. It seems this forum will be flooded with perky and positive posts, no doubt paid by FFG. So let the propaganda and brain washing commence. I'd like to say I will never buy and FFG product again, but alas I think I am going to by Rogue Trader. At least that's a proper roleplaing, one hopes.
Sigh. Yes, I just got my FFG-check in the mail. I'm really just like you in thinking WHFRP is ruined FOREVER , but my blind thirst for money has made me sink to this new low...
Edit: I see that my Forum-Fu is weak and I should have RTFM...
Poe said:
Sigh. Yes, I just got my FFG-check in the mail. I'm really just like you in thinking WHFRP is ruined FOREVER , but my blind thirst for money has made me sink to this new low...
You got yours only now? I already bought with it a second computer to be able to brain wash 2 times faster by typing on 2 machines at once.
Thanks for proving my point. If you're doing this for free, well....
Ron B. Stard said:
Thanks for proving my point. If you're doing this for free, well....
Man you really need to sit back and relax.
But I feel this is going to be a losing battle, arguing against the game. It seems this forum will be flooded with perky and positive posts, no doubt paid by FFG.
Funny that you mention it, since it is a common knowledge that v3 bashers are paid by that other company
Ron B. Stard said:
What's wrong with all these cards and the dice etc. is that it all leads to less roleplaying, simply because the players will think 'I need this card or that to improve my skill/chance/whatever', or 'I need to roll 5 axes/whatever to beat him' and so on. It leads to board game mentality even if the game is NOT A BOARD GAME! (methinks mylady protests too much...)
Most of the cards seem to be taking the place of ordinary RPG effects. Players might think, "I really want that skill or talent -- it would help me out in that situation." That skill or talent might be written on a card, instead of in the rulebook. Instead of copying down the skill when you finally have the XP to acquire it, your GM hands you a card to save you the trouble. It doesn't seem to be all that much different from V2 in that respect.
The party mechanics do seem to have that "I want that card, how do I get it for my use next turn?" aspect to them. I hope they're not too gamey.
Also, we currently think "I need to roll a 33 to hit him", so it's not a big difference if you start to think "I need 5 hammers". I can't be any worse than thinking about percentages in the middle of a fight -- which are anything but immersive.
Captin' said:
This is horrible news! What if i have 2 players who wan't to play the same class? Or an entire party! And a bloody deck where i draw cards from? And you say this is NOT a board game? Then it is a card game, for it has cards. Argue that all you want.
Captin' said:
Another thing that bothers me is the Insanity deck. Before they had pages of information about insanities to describe in detail what hapened to the character. And if the DM didn't think they fit he'd make up his own. Is this what makes 3rd edition better at PR? I think not! How are they going to contain all that information on one random card! Insanities can NOT be randomized!
And this stance thing? Forcing gamers to do things in game is NOT Roleplaying. Quite the opposite.
Captin' said:
As i see it, if i read the text right, it is something more like the more you attack, the more into it you get and must keep attacking in some kind of a frenzy.
This would be logical. But it is not helping RP, it is forcing it. RP is to feel what your character would do, not being forced to do it.
It does say "depending on which stance you choose to be in" and that you can change it every turn so I think it is totally up for the character.
Captin'
said:
3 books, a party sheet, 3 character boxes and 3 00+ cards takes a lot more space then one book and 6 pieces of papers. This isn't opinion, this is fact. You can put all the character sheest between the pages of the core book, thus you only have to carry around the space of one book. You s icarrycan't do that with boxes and 300+ cards. And the die you can alwayn your pocket in both situations.
Ron B. Stard said:
But I feel this is going to be a losing battle, arguing against the game. It seems this forum will be flooded with perky and positive posts, no doubt paid by FFG. So let the propaganda and brain washing commence. I'd like to say I will never buy and FFG product again, but alas I think I am going to by Rogue Trader. At least that's a proper roleplaing, one hopes.
Ron B. Stard said:
It seems this forum will be flooded with perky and positive posts, no doubt paid by FFG.
Why would they, since I'm already doing that for free?
Ask yourself what I have to gain from doing that. All I want is a good game I can design fan-made supplements for. Since those don't make me any money whatsoever -- and since I don't work in the games industry and I don't even pick up freelance work based on my WFRP stuff -- this becomes a big investment of my time. It's strictly because I love Warhammer. Also, I like to roll with the new.
This looks like a great game, but I'm probably better-informed about it than you are. I certainly know more than you do if you still think this is a board game. I'd be happy to point you toward many other sources that have convinced me of that -- but I've got a feeling you'd reject those out of hand, since I probably can't be trusted.
DagobahDave said:
Ron B. Stard said:
It seems this forum will be flooded with perky and positive posts, no doubt paid by FFG.
Why would they, since I'm already doing that for free?
Ask yourself what I have to gain from doing that. All I want is a good game I can design fan-made supplements for. Since those don't make me any money whatsoever -- and since I don't work in the games industry and I don't even pick up freelance work based on my WFRP stuff -- this becomes a big investment of my time. It's strictly because I love Warhammer. Also, I like to roll with the new.
This looks like a great game, but I'm probably better-informed about it than you are. I certainly know more than you do if you still think this is a board game. I'd be happy to point you toward many other sources that have convinced me of that -- but I've got a feeling you'd reject those out of hand, since I probably can't be trusted.
I am not in the position to know how much you know about the game, so I won't hazard any guesses. I know FFG and other people say it's not a board game, but my point is that it will play like a board game, with all the board game's advantages and disadvantages. I also know it is claimed that the game will be a fully fledged RPG. But for me personally what we have seen and heard suggests it will be properly neither, but something in between. Fast, easy to play, colourful, expensive, littered with cards, dice, counters and gizmos, and so on. For me this is a major step to the wrong direction -this atrocity is not a worthy successor to the excellent RPG (v1 &v2).
I might also add, that I wasn't entirely serious about the paid FFG sockpuppets. I know full well that you don't need to pay fanboys anything, they'll happily proclaim the 'superior' nature of their infatuation to the end of the world. That is the nature of the Internet.
Well, I'm quite glad at the general change of mood here on this forum: from outright frothing at the mouth nerd rage ("FFG betrayed us! I'll never every buy anything from them again!") to actual constructive debate (from both sides).
As some predicted, the more details that are found, the more people seem to become cautiously optimistic.
That being said, the 100$ price tag better be worth it: FFG has never let me down before in terms of print quality, but... ouch.
EDIT: Oh oops: in another thread someone mentioned that it comes with four hard cover books. That makes sense then!