This was written over a month ago, and correlates to what we've seen so far...and IT DOESN'T SOUND GOOD...not like a board game? How many times can Mr. Little repeat himself? Still looking for more stuff.

http://www.graham-mcneill.com/gmblog/PermaLink,guid,24ed7843-8f78-48b7-a2cc-507afc907eab.aspx

WFRP 3
A coupe of weeks ago, our regular roleplaying group was privileged enough to playtest 3rd Edition Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay. The guys from Fantasy Flight Games were over at Games Workshop HQ, and Jay Little very kindly did a show and tell for us over at Alessio Cavatore’s house, where we saw how much the game has changed from its previous incarnation. Our gaming group has been going for some time and we were all interested to see what was new with WFRP, since we’d playtested the previous edition also. It was in interesting evening, and the game was very different to anything I’ve played before, with a lot of table space taken up by character sheets, action and ability cards, dice etc. It felt like a strange hybrid of board game and roleplaying game at first, but once the notions of the new mechanics took hold, it felt very natural. Likewise, the new dice pool system felt odd at first, but once we’d rolled a few dice it immediately became very intuitive, which is surely the holy grail of any roleplaying system.

By the time we’d despatched the goblins and rescued the coachman, we didn’t have much time left to play out the more interpersonal encounters of the intro game, but we’d already gotten our heads around the system and were already looking to develop our characters – which is a good sign in any playtest. Overall, I really liked the changes to the game, and it makes a nice change from sitting with my Players Handbook and a grubby character sheet. I’m liking what Jay has done with the game, and there’s a clear desire to make it fit properly with the Warhammer World, where a lot of the previous edition’s books, with the best will in the world, just didn’t.

This was the origional quote that upset everyone a while back.

That's really old news now, but for the sake of completeness it's a good thing someone posted it here. I'm going to highlight the sections I consider most pertinent:

once the notions of the new mechanics took hold, it felt very natural. Likewise, the new dice pool system felt odd at first, but once we’d rolled a few dice it immediately became very intuitive, which is surely the holy grail of any roleplaying system.

The holy grail of any roleplaying system? We're talking about a vessel worthy of holding the blood of a god-king , people. You don't get a better review than that.

which is a good sign in any playtest.

You can say that again!

Overall, I really liked the changes to the game

He really liked it.

I’m liking what Jay has done with the game, and there’s a clear desire to make it fit properly with the Warhammer World

He's liking it, and a Warhammer game that fits properly into the Warhammer World is a good thing, isn't it? Unless you had some other setting in mind.

Yeah, they have PAGES relating to that post, and nothing stated or shown thus far has shown it to be wrong, if anything, it's backed it up what was said and has shown that it's NO HOAX, and probably was spot on in what the game tester stated.

If everything else he's stated seems to be showing up as accurate thus far, why would his other statement of being a hybrid be wrong?

GreyLord said:

Because you know... A board game needs to have a board?

Atendarius said:

I hope that's sarcasm. Blue Moon doesn't have a board...but is in the boardgame forums if you go look. Dominion in the top 10 on Boardgamegeek has NO BOARD. Warhammer Fantasy Battles...has NO BOARD. Yahtzee, sold in the boardgame departments of many stores...has NO BOARD. Rummikub has NO BOARD.

If you are not being sarcastic...your point about NO BOARD is?????

GreyLord said:

Blue Moon has a board... though it's not really an important part of the game, however I wouldn't call it a board game anyways, in fact I wouldn't call any of those games board games. Blue Moon and Dominion are card games, WFB is a tabletop miniature wargame, Yahtzee is a dice game and Rummikub is a tile game.

GreyLord said:

We've been assured at least three times in three places, by credible sources (the lead designer and a playtester, and the game's description) that WFRP3 is very much a roleplaying game.

What does hybrid mean to you, and why is it the focus of this thread? Is a hybrid a bad thing? We can see that the game uses cards and funky dice. That's not unique among RPGs. So what's left to make it a hybrid with a board game? If anything, it's a hybrid of an RPG and a card game.

There are board games that use cards, but they're still board games. Why couldn't WFRP3 be a roleplaying game that uses cards, and is still a roleplaying game?

Check out the snapshots of the character sheets taken at GenCon. Listen to what Jay Little has to say on the FFG GenCon video. I don't think the word hybrid can overrule the other descriptions we've received. Graham actually wrote: "It felt like a strange hybrid of board game and roleplaying game at first, but ".

But is the important word there.

Hmm, I don't know of that many RPGs that use cards. There's a Western style RPG that uses cards as a dynamic, Completely different than Warhammer in every way. Then there's 4e...but people have called that a board game...and head to head...WFRP will lose to 4e if they try that method. 4e is cheaper for the group as per individuals buying their own stuff, 4e has started from a larger base, 4e has bigger name recognition, and 4e has Hasbro which is bigger than GW and FFG to give it that push.

So you have a Western style RPG that uses the cards in a different fashion then what's seems to be shown, and a semi-boardgame that probably could win in a heads to heads stake out in this style of RPG. What other RPG's have cards in them. Runebound? That's a RP board game. WoW the Boardgame...that's ALSO a boardgame. WOW the adventure game...Boardgame.

Descent seems to be the closest in relation with the skill resolution, combat, and other sorts of dice, the character sheets/cards, the tokens to mark your stats, the cards with equipment, encounters (RtL), bosses, etc. If you took away the board and minis...it would actually seem to be very close to what they've shown for Warhammer thus far. It didn't have 4 booklets, it only had 2 in the base game...but much more similar to what they've shown thus far than any RPG I know of...except Descent isn't even an RPG or RP board game, it's a tactical squad boardgame.

However, I could run Descent as an RPG with the rules as provided in the Descent game and RtL expansion, the modifications actually wouldn't even be all that extreme...and I'd do a LOT of what they've described thus far with dice pools to do it. I wouldn't deem to steal another name and slap it on that creation though...as it wouldn't be Warhammer, but something different.

If I did do a mix of the Descent and do minor tweaks to make it an RPG however, it probably would feel exactly as described above...a hybrid between a boardgame and an RPG, though I could make it feel a LOT like a 4e RPG probably.

It also appears that though you don't need the minis...minis and a tactical map are useful and almost necessary (like 4e, you don't actually NEED them per se), and they even toss in what appear to be stand up replacements for minis and probably a board...err I mean piece of grid paper you put on the table for you to use as well. AT least I'd imagine they were playing something with the WFRP new rules with the minis on the tables...

GreyLord said:

Same as before, you're seeing a game board where there is none. In fact the game's designer said "no game board, no maps."

Cardstock miniatures do not automatically indicate that a game is like Descent, or even like D&D4. It's very common in RPGs. Maybe not the ones you've played, but it is common, or was at one time.

I think people are focusing way too much on the cards - they seem to be physical playing aids helping you remember what you character can do without having to either look it up or write it down on charactersheets and not boardgame parts. Now this may sound lazy but I have friends with terrible handwriting, an awful tendency to use bad erasers and constant spilling stuff on their character sheets and from whom it's often heard "Do you remember what I used my xp on" or "Can you read what I've written here?".

I'm much more interested in the actual system - as some have been able to make out from pictures a lot of the 2ed concepts are still on the character sheet, but we still don't know how they are used or how detailed it is.

42!

GreyLord said:

sorry to spoil your propaganda but I think the sectio I put in bold in this sentence needs emphasising. When he saw the things that has most the community thinking its a boardgame hybrid he did as well. But apparently he changed his mind when he said how good the system was later now I don't know if it will be any good and at that price I'm definitely reserving judgement until I've seen it but I don't think it should definitely be ruled out yet.

ps the words "at first" should be bold but it didn't come out too well

DagobahDave said:

Credible Sources?

• Jay Little: The man in charge of designing it, who's employment may well depend on the success of the game.
• Graham McNeill: Games Workshop writer/designer. A man who works for the owner of the Warhammer brand.
• Runefang: A Playtester who from the secrecy surrounding the development of WFRPv3 was almost certainly in bed with FFG.
• Game Description: It looks and sounds like a complex version of HeroQuest.

I struggling to think of a less credible group of people than those that have been allowed to test the game.

The Game Description may just be very poor marketing and I am certainly hoping it is. As for reliable opinions what we need is a group of people with no interest in the game's success or even better some of the angry fans calling for blood to playtest it and then give it the thumbs up.

Foolishboy said:

That's really funny. Maybe that's not your intention, but what I am reading from your post is, paraphrased ...

"We can't trust anyone who knows anything about the game."

So who should we trust? Those who haven't seen the game at all, which is like everyone but the people involved in the game design and testing?

/M

Foolishboy said:

In the interests of being more credible, I have pasted some notes from one of the playtests below. Hopefully this will help:

VIOLATION!!!!

OOOOOO!!!!!!! You are in big trouble mister! You have RUINED the game for ALL of US!!! Shame! Shame! SHAME!!!!

I might just consider considering the consideration of reporting you and having your playtester union local card revoked!

I am very disappointed.

E

Enough with all these old fashioned rulebooks. This game is going to put on the self DnD and all preevious RPGs for ever. I love it. I want it!

MagnusSeter said:

As I said in my previous post, the reviews I want are independant ones written by people with nothing to gain from the game's succes or failure. I was hoping for some fans to get go at GenCon and write some reviews based on actually playing the game.

Foolishboy said:

LOL Fans going to gencon....and revealing what they saw...LOL good luck with that buddy. For a time I always thought hobos seeking shelter were the only ones that went to these things. Gen con for some dang reason is always held on the first week of school. So that cuts most college students out, well the ones that care about education and a future (the ones called nerds aka board game geeks).

The times that I went to Gamesday Baltimore I saw so many cool things but signs were all around them saying "TAKING PICTURES NOT PERMITED" and had mean men standing next to the signs.

Just as movies do their best not to get leaks, so to does the board game industry. After all those that get to see upcoming products and hear the news did pay to get that privilage. This is why most that go don't leak, because they paid and you did not.

darkkami said:

Yeah running Demos of a game to get word of mouth advertising and positive reviews going is such a stupid idea. Especially at one of the biggest Gaming Conventions in the World. The last thing a company wants is you going out and telling others that they have a good game. Heck people might even buy the game!

A better idea is to lie to you customers about a game you are not really making then introduce a completely new different game to replace a successful one with an established fan base, which you give a corporate buzz word announcement of and keep back any real information. Then have to explain that it is not what the announcement makes it look like but still give no real information. Oh yeah it cost $100 and is not complete, if you have more than 4 people in your group or want the the other 10 careers (out of 50) you have to buy addons right away. How much will this addon cost and do we need an addon for each player or will one addon support multiple players, that must not be infor we need. Yep, Much better way to market a game.

Foolishboy said:

That would have been preferrable. I think it was announced at GenCon because GenCon rolled in, not because it is ready for public consumption. Still, I hope for more info, and am willing to wait until FFG gets back from GenCon.

But compared to the WH40kRP line, they sure are letting us WFRP:ers hang.

/M

Foolishboy said:

That's actually incorrect. Graham McNeill was a member of GW's design team (initially a staff writer, then a games developer), but left GW and moved on to writing novels and short stories for Black Library on a full-time freelance basis in 2006.

Kriegtanzer said:

I wasn't sure about your comments, whether you were serious or not, never been to the Con you mentioned but it kicked off my sarcastic streak. It really may be a great game but they seem to do all they can to make the fans wonder what the heck it is going to be.

I joked on one of the threads that all they have told us is that it is "new and shiny." Then I watch the Gen Con videos and the CEO of FFG called it "new" and "shiny"...and controversial. Thanks for clearing things up. Jay Little tells us it is not a board game, it has dice and cards and character sheets and career cards but there is NO board and NO map, and no pencils.... Glad I already have maps of the Old World then...and a pencil.

(And no I wouldn't expect it to come with pencils, but Jay mentioned it at least twice so if must have been important, it was more time than he spent on explaining how all these wonderful do dads we have to buy are going to work to make it a better role playing experience.)

If it doesn't come with pencils, it's not a complete game!

For $100 it should come with 4 pencils!

No pencils? What have they done to my RPG?!

Pencils? I thought everything would be on cards!

Somebody help me out here. I'm running out of good ones.