In case you haven't seen it, here's what WFRP3 has to say for the kind of game that it is:

"One player gets to be the Game Master. The Game Master is responsible for crafting the story, and giving life to the adventure the heroes are about to undertake. Setting up the encounters, adopting the role of the non-player characters (often referred to as NPCs), and acting as the ruling authority for how the rules apply to the game at hand all fall under the Game Master’s sway.

Three players form the hero party, seeking out adventure and glory. They will be the protagonists, and act together towards a goal. As they perform mighty deeds, combat foul enemies, and exercise their diplomatic skills they will gain experience. This experience allows players to upgrade their skills and abilities, as well as gain new options and help define their characters’ roles within the world. As the PCs gain experience and become even more powerful, the Game Master will craft more challenging stories."

That sounds like every other traditional RPG. If you didn't know this was WFRP3, it could describe v1, v2, Traveller, TMNT or Exalted.

Let's see if we can find a board in the list of game contents:

* Custom Dice give you unprecedented options for story-telling
* Character Stances give players exciting choices during challenges
* Action cards keep you in the game, no need to look up skills or abilities
* Party sheets provide new skills and abilities to keep everyone engaged
* 40 different careers and 4 different races offer a multitude of character options

There's no mention of a board, minis or cardstock figures. It looks to me like it's a traditional sort of RPG with one difference: the character sheets partly consist of prepared cards so you don't have to write everything down.

Maybe we'll find that there are indeed miniatures and grid-maps included with the game. But as of the initial announcement, it doesn't look that way.

DagobahDave said:

SO, my buddies troll slayer is exactly the same as my troll slayer, in every way, when he starts? Where do I write down my character's name? His grudges? His star sign?

how do know that people from one part of the empire are better horsemen than from others? It wasn't just the career system, and now that's all you are, is a career.

WFRP 2E came with probably twice as many careers. Where's the flavor?

It may not have dungeon tiles, but this looks AN AWFUL LOT like descent mechanics wrapped in a warhammer tattered cloak.

And a $100 entry price? seriously? are you guys kidding? what fool, (sorry, but I have to say fool in this economy) is going to plop down that kind of money just to find out how the game plays.

CHERNOBYL: So my buddies troll slayer is exactly the same as my troll slayer, in every way, when he starts? Where do I write down my character's name? His grudges? His star sign?

On your character sheet, maybe.

"Inside the Core set are three character keepers designed to hold everything your hero will need each session. From your dice, actions cards, and character sheets to any wounds, items, or skills your hero acquires, you will have a convenient place to store everything after a session."

However, 'character sheet' might simply mean a career card or other printed card of some type. It wouldn't surprise me (or offend me) if the game included a stack of pregenerated Dwarf backgrounds with names and star signs already prepared. Just draw one from the stack. It's not that much different than random chargen, which is a cornerstone of WFRP.

Or they could have character sheets of the kind that we're familiar with and random tables to roll on. Either way, I can see it working just fine.

I kinda wished you'd found something about my post to reply to, though. You're just ranting.

DagobahDave, I see what you're saying, and I appreciate the attempt to cool things off a little. Wfrp grognards like us have a well-earned reputation for doomsaying and trying to stick to the known facts will help. However, the one aspect of the description you quote that doesn't sound like any rpg I've ever played is the bit where it says (quote) 'three players' make up your party. So that means this is a game for 4 players. Not 3. Not 5. Not (like my current wfrp group) 6. A game for 4 players. Now that isn't the sort of blurb I've seen on any rpg for a long long time. Not since TSR marketed things like Marvel Super Heroes in boxes at department stores to people who thought they were buying a board game. (And my guess is that that's the plan here. Attract a new market by selling the box in places a traditional rpg wouldn't be sold. I mean, selling complex board games is what FFG has a lot of experience in. But I digress.) The point is that rpgs don't generally tell you how many players they are for, because you can play with any number as long as the GM can fiddle with levels of opposition. They are flexible enough to accommodate it. But board games do specify a certain number of players and don't generally work (or not as well) if you change the number. Because they're not designed to have that sort of flexibility. So I can't help feeling that what we've got here is more like a board game than just a boxed rpg with lots of handouts and dice included.

heh, it reminds me of the boxes that come with Descent: Road to legend, where you put all your hero's stuff in a box.

The custom dice bit really turns me off. Its been very hard getting extra dice for descent.

RevMark said:

I've seen somewhere (that I can seem to find now ofcourse) does that you'll be able to buy more adventurepacks to support more characters - so it seems the box has enough dice, cards, sheets, etc. for 3 players without that being the games limit.

42!

RevMark said:

"This Core set is best suited for a group of four players – one Game Master and three Player Characters. Adding more players is easy! You can find more careers, party sheets, action cards, and components in the the Adventurer’s Toolkit."

I don't know exactly how that will work, but that's your answer.

DagobahDave said:

Word " best " gives me hope that there will not necessarily be only four people for play.

egalor said:

I think there are probably only enough cards in the core set to fully equip three players.

However I'm pretty sure that everything you'd need to know about your character could be written onto a blank piece of paper and work just as well as if you had all the cards. So playing with more than three players might only be as difficult as creating character in WFRP2 and writing down the stats as you go along.

DagobahDave said:

Which just brings up a whole load more questions. Who shells out the cash for these extra packs? More expense for the GM on top of the ludicrously high starting cost? Or do you ask your players to provide their own adventurer's toolkits? Because that would just lose me players. Right now, if I want to add a new player to the group all I need is a character sheet and another couple of D10s.

Someone at FFG doesn't understand how RPGs actually work in the real world.

RevMark said:

Except that the blurb itself says that you can add more players easily.

Personally, I like the look of WFRP 3rd. It's not as though 2nd ed is going to disappear and you won't be allowed to play it, so why not at least give it a chance?

Someone at FFG doesn't understand how RPGs actually work in the real world.

Where as I'd say they do know exactly how they work. The same group of people play RPGs, very few people are coming into the hobby. This game seems a perfect way to encourage more board gamers and more ordinary people to try it out, and I don't see that as a bad thing.

Actually the blurb says that you can add more players at considerable expense.

And no, 2nd ed isn't going anywhere (mind you it's not been going anywhere for a while). Given that, why WOULD we give 3rd ed a chance when we know what 2nd ed is like and enjoy it (presumably, otherwise why are we here) and 3rd ed appears to be a completely different game with only a token nod in the direction of roleplaying?

Show me something, anything, to indicate that this is an actual roleplaying game with the kind of storytelling freedoms that set RPGs apart from everything else on the market and maybe I'll give it a chance. But right now, FFG haven't even shown us that.

DagobahDave said:

Me too, I think about something like that. Moreover, I think it'll be possible later to buy (or copy) more these Player Kits. In any case, this limitation is (so far) possible to overcome. But those 40 careers...

This sounds to be an introductory rpg.

That is, an rpg with preprinted stat cards or less options is still an rpg, just not a very advanced one. In fact, one perfectly geared to introduce new players.

This seems to be an industry trend (I'm thinking of Green Ronin's Dragon Age introductory box here) which I'm glad Warhammer gets to be a part of. (More WFRP players is always a good thing!)

I'm guessing this is how the industry reacts to the harshness of the GSL. In other words, the reaction to how WotC stopped their generous d20 license where other companies were allowed to write for the D&D game rules.

Apparently, dazzling production values and introductory complexity has been deemed necessary to claim some market share in the shadow of D&D 4th edition. The way these games come across as having boardgame appeal is probably a way not to have to compete directly with D&D, as well as finding new customers.

Hopefully this will end up in a better way than the various introductory (A)D&D boxed sets, which always came across as blatant sell-ins to the main game of the era...

Just because this is an introductory rpg, however, does not mean I feel a particular need to predict doom and gloom for us existing WFRP players. Just that the run of v2 finally has ended, and that to use further products for that edition, conversion will likely have to take place.

CHAOSCHILD: Actually the blurb says that you can add more players at considerable expense.

"Considerable" expense? That's an invention of yours. We don't know how expensive the player's kits will be, so how about chilling out on that one.

CHAOSCHILD: Show me something, anything, to indicate that this is an actual roleplaying game with the kind of storytelling freedoms that set RPGs apart from everything else on the market and maybe I'll give it a chance. But right now, FFG haven't even shown us that.

Look, if you're going to post in this thread without reading the original topic -- which contains exactly what you're asking for -- then please stop posting in this thread. You're off topic, making exaggerated and unsupportable claims, and you're a troll. Scram.

ChaosChild said:

I think you'll find I never said "buy it". I said "give it a chance", as in, don't start condemning it before FFG actually release more info on it. You might find you like it. No one is stopping you from playing 2nd edition, so why condemn the 3rd when you have a perfectly fine game already?

As for your request at the end, what about the word of one of the playtesters?

http://forum.strike-to-stun.net/viewtopic.php?t=2729&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

Otherwise, I agree with Dave. You have made up the whole "considerable expense" part of it, so please stick to the facts?

I read the original topic, and while it may indicate TO YOU that this is a traditional RPG, to me it indicates that this is a board game with no board and some roleplaying elements. That's not the same thing at all.

"Considerable" expense may be a stretch on my part, but how much do you think they'll charge for the box, dice, cards etc that you'll need for a new player? Considering the announced cost of the base set, and the excellent production values FFG understandably pride themselves on, I doubt it'll be cheap. And when you factor in that you have to pay this PER ADDITIONAL PLAYER, I don't think I'm reading too much between the lines.

And how do you expect me to give it a chance without buying it (or at least someone else in my gaming group buying it, which is unlikely)?

P.S. Is everyone who expresses a considered opinion that happens to disagree with yours to be condemned as a troll?

Thanks, Millandson. I hadn't seen that post from RuneFang before. We really can put the "board game" nonsense away now.

But I just don't think that's likely to happen.

ChaosChild said:

Well, you're free to ignore what it says. But what about RuneFang's assertion that WFRP3 is an RPG in every sense? He might be violating his NDA by saying that, but since he was a playtester, and just because he's RuneFang, I'm inclined to believe him.

ChaosChild said:

The best way to give it a chance is to wait with your judgment until someone does a indepth review of the game including actual play experience (or buy it see firsthand like I intend to) - until then all any of us can really do, is guess at what the game will be like.

And again we don't know how much it'll cost to get an adventure pack and can only guess at wether or not it'll be cheap, reasonable or expensive and until they release the prices it's all just pointless guessing or optimistic hoping.

42!

Also, "considerable" expense doesn't necessarily mean "unreasonable" expense. If you need a lot of stuff per player (and with 30 dice only providing enough for 3 players it seems like you will) then a perfectly reasonable price for the number of components involved could still be what I would consider to be a considerable expense. Especially compared to a blank character sheet and 2D10.

Oh, and I read Runefang's post. The problem is he can't actually tell us anything about it due to his NDA, so his assertions are just as vague as the info from FFG. At the end of the day, this is one sentence from a guy I don't know that doesn't actually tell us anything. What I really want is to have enough information to make up my own mind about this, and the (lack of) information we've been given so far doesn't look good at all.

ChaosChild said:

I know you don't really know me, but perhaps there's more chance of you believing this 'in person'. I agree I am being necessarily vague, but plainly I know more than you about it all. But I think it is worth reiterating that this really is a roleplaying game in every sense you could imagine commonly associated with RPGs. I'm not sure how I can be any clearer than that or any more credible, atm. It's a roleplaying game for roleplayers with roleplaying.

You're still welcome to dislike the game or think whatever you like about it of course, but you really shouldn't do it based on the notion that it's not a real roleplaying game.

Runefang on the other forum.

Well, after finally getting a look at the images posted in that forum (Strike to Stun?), I have to say that I'm actually pretty darned excited about this game. It looks like the perfect laid back, fast paced sort of game that my friends are looking for.

Most of us lack the time and energy to take part in a full-fledged RPG. This looks like a nice, clean and easy to jump into set up.

However, I can see how many pen and paper RPG purists may be disappointed.

Luckily, 2nd edition still exists and has, like, fifty sourcebooks. So just keep to 2nd edition, I guess?

Necrozius said:

But will there be continued support for 2nd edition? Will there be some similiar "upgrade" to Dark Heresy? And it´s current form continued support?

TorogTarkdacil said: