So, it seems as if a magic-less JoaT deck focusing on Valor Form sora seems to be the way to go? I mean, obviously Monstro will gimp the deck a little bit, but in general, does anyone see anything that's even remotely comparable?
Best Deck?
Fairbanks said:
So, it seems as if a magic-less JoaT deck focusing on Valor Form sora seems to be the way to go? I mean, obviously Monstro will gimp the deck a little bit, but in general, does anyone see anything that's even remotely comparable?
More than likely Valor Aggro (not JoaT) will be the deck to beat. It's finding the style that works with it that will be the difficult part since there are many ways to build it.
Okay, but what happens in the aggro/aggro match? It's because of this that my thought process led to JoaT running Valor, capitalizing off of Auron, his techniques, the fact that you're magic blanking yourself (and thus should be running the lvl 3 Coliseum). I mean, the Auron/Sora techniques are, potentially, some of the most powerful cards in the game for a WR. It lets you avoid the garbage like Behemoth/Cerberus/etc.
Fairbanks said:
Okay, but what happens in the aggro/aggro match? It's because of this that my thought process led to JoaT running Valor, capitalizing off of Auron, his techniques, the fact that you're magic blanking yourself (and thus should be running the lvl 3 Coliseum). I mean, the Auron/Sora techniques are, potentially, some of the most powerful cards in the game for a WR. It lets you avoid the garbage like Behemoth/Cerberus/etc.
True, but with so much spot removal (ie Jack Sparrow)...That Auron is gonna be gone before you know it as it will be the first thing your opponent is gonna target, thus leaving you with a handful of Techs you can't use. On top of that, higher level friends just don't seem worth it anymore...there's so many options and good cards of the lower levels, I don't think level 4s are really that great. (Do note, that I run one Auron...but you'll see why when I post my deck).
Also, Techs seem so situational, like I mentioned before, it's gonna be tough to keep the friends you need in play, let alone get them there in the first place.
And as for the Aggro/Aggro matchup...that's why you'd run Kingdom Keys so when/if you lose your Valor in a challenge, that key is still gonna hit 'em for three HP if you can overcome them, which wouldn't be hard if you'd also be running Fairy Harps. My point is, that the Aggro/Aggro matchup is a game of combat tricks and outsmarting your opponent as well as beating them down.
Aggro/Aggro is whoever draws better. Games will be faster so why waste slots on a different, slower win con? It won't catch them off gaurd if it's Tier1 and you also will have to run counters for your mirror match making the deck even bigger and thus less effeficent.
WayToTheDawn said:
Fairbanks said:
Okay, but what happens in the aggro/aggro match? It's because of this that my thought process led to JoaT running Valor, capitalizing off of Auron, his techniques, the fact that you're magic blanking yourself (and thus should be running the lvl 3 Coliseum). I mean, the Auron/Sora techniques are, potentially, some of the most powerful cards in the game for a WR. It lets you avoid the garbage like Behemoth/Cerberus/etc.
True, but with so much spot removal (ie Jack Sparrow)...That Auron is gonna be gone before you know it as it will be the first thing your opponent is gonna target, thus leaving you with a handful of Techs you can't use. On top of that, higher level friends just don't seem worth it anymore...there's so many options and good cards of the lower levels, I don't think level 4s are really that great. (Do note, that I run one Auron...but you'll see why when I post my deck).
Also, Techs seem so situational, like I mentioned before, it's gonna be tough to keep the friends you need in play, let alone get them there in the first place.
And as for the Aggro/Aggro matchup...that's why you'd run Kingdom Keys so when/if you lose your Valor in a challenge, that key is still gonna hit 'em for three HP if you can overcome them, which wouldn't be hard if you'd also be running Fairy Harps. My point is, that the Aggro/Aggro matchup is a game of combat tricks and outsmarting your opponent as well as beating them down.
I agree on the Lv 4s, there are very few to begin with, and only a couple worth playing. Sephy in my opinion is still a beast, considering he returns after the challenge. Maybe also Goofy Lv4 to pull the Valor and be able to use it right away too. Other than that, you can use many lv1 and 2s to pound the crap out of an opponent.
I still think Cloud is good to for a racer deck, just that you should run goofy to protect him from being force discarded with the equipment.
As for best deck, I feel that in games, the decks that people find best are usually good, but there are always decks that people don't expect that do very well too and sometimes, the decks expected to be the best actually fail. Heard a story about a pokemon deck that was suppose to do awesome that just failed.
Best deck in my opinion is any deck that you have built, and that you can handle to near perfection.
Just because you can pilot a deck well, doesn't mean the deck is good.
Beg to differ. After all the games that I have played, knowing how the deck runs and what it can do adds a huge influence to the deck. Anyone can be given a boom stick,, just takes certain people to use it in all the way imaginable.
Jayce_Ryu_Tismotto said:
Beg to differ. After all the games that I have played, knowing how the deck runs and what it can do adds a huge influence to the deck. Anyone can be given a boom stick,, just takes certain people to use it in all the way imaginable.
There's a major difference between good players and good decks...
Jayce_Ryu_Tismotto said:
WayToTheDawn said:
Fairbanks said:
Okay, but what happens in the aggro/aggro match? It's because of this that my thought process led to JoaT running Valor, capitalizing off of Auron, his techniques, the fact that you're magic blanking yourself (and thus should be running the lvl 3 Coliseum). I mean, the Auron/Sora techniques are, potentially, some of the most powerful cards in the game for a WR. It lets you avoid the garbage like Behemoth/Cerberus/etc.
True, but with so much spot removal (ie Jack Sparrow)...That Auron is gonna be gone before you know it as it will be the first thing your opponent is gonna target, thus leaving you with a handful of Techs you can't use. On top of that, higher level friends just don't seem worth it anymore...there's so many options and good cards of the lower levels, I don't think level 4s are really that great. (Do note, that I run one Auron...but you'll see why when I post my deck).
Also, Techs seem so situational, like I mentioned before, it's gonna be tough to keep the friends you need in play, let alone get them there in the first place.
And as for the Aggro/Aggro matchup...that's why you'd run Kingdom Keys so when/if you lose your Valor in a challenge, that key is still gonna hit 'em for three HP if you can overcome them, which wouldn't be hard if you'd also be running Fairy Harps. My point is, that the Aggro/Aggro matchup is a game of combat tricks and outsmarting your opponent as well as beating them down.
I agree on the Lv 4s, there are very few to begin with, and only a couple worth playing. Sephy in my opinion is still a beast, considering he returns after the challenge. Maybe also Goofy Lv4 to pull the Valor and be able to use it right away too. Other than that, you can use many lv1 and 2s to pound the crap out of an opponent.
I still think Cloud is good to for a racer deck, just that you should run goofy to protect him from being force discarded with the equipment.
As for best deck, I feel that in games, the decks that people find best are usually good, but there are always decks that people don't expect that do very well too and sometimes, the decks expected to be the best actually fail. Heard a story about a pokemon deck that was suppose to do awesome that just failed.
Best deck in my opinion is any deck that you have built, and that you can handle to near perfection.
Sephiroth is prime real estate for Jack Sparrow lvl 3 and until Cloud & Sephiroth comes out where it can't be discarded, it's going to be that way. Cloud is a beast (as is Sephiroth, don't get me wrong I when through Hell and back to get one of each, they are awesome), but he, as is WR are dead thanks to Cerberus and our lovely friend Aerith.
Goofy lvl 4 is a nice card, both Goofys are great with both Riku for Soul Eater and Sora for Valor Form, but it's seriously a waste of something to either quickly draw into or search via The King.
Donald lvl 4 is about as useful as Cloud, he searches Magic and Magical Friends which is nice, but Phil killed him, though I would like to see Stopra come back into play.
Jack lvl 4 and Aladdin lvl 4 is ....bad, unless you play a world themed deck which I can see more people doing now.
Ariel lvl 4 is a piece of trash, Level 3 is just as good.
Leon is a beast however his effect and the ruling on his new effect make him not as great as he could have been (pulling back Yuffie and then discarding their hand again is pretty badass in my opinion.
I believe unless I'm mistaking that brings me to Auron. Auron not only hits for big numbers but he will take out anything you dont want on the field. Hitting him with Jack Sparrow is like "catching smoke, like catching smoke with your bare hands." (Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban) since he will be used 9/10 when he hits the board and leave right after.
Jayce_Ryu_Tismotto said:
Beg to differ. After all the games that I have played, knowing how the deck runs and what it can do adds a huge influence to the deck. Anyone can be given a boom stick,, just takes certain people to use it in all the way imaginable.
okay so what two people have the same skill level? then it would be whoever played the better deck.
I think I've got a deck design that would have answer(s) to Phil. The problem is Monstro. I'll need to play around with it a little...
I honestly think that the only way to "beat" Monstro is to use Monstro yourself and then build your deck around it. That way you can deal with WR (Monstro + Cerberus), Aggro using Support Friends without Monstro (They won't be able to use those friends), Dark Decks, Nobody Decks, etc, etc.
Valor and Kingdom Key are pretty much a shoe-in for any aggro deck.
Also, with the introduction of Jack, Auron, as well as a number of ways to clear your friend area, I think 1s and 2s are going to be a lot more common.
As for a good deck vs. a good player well... here's the way I see it.
A deck determines what a player can do. You obviously can't play a card that you don't have in your deck, so the maximum potential of your performance is limited to how you built your deck. However, even if your deck has a "high" potential, it's still up to you, as the player, to bring out that potential by using combos properly, knowing how cards interact with each other, etc. etc.
A good player will know what cards to hold on to, which to discard, how to play their cards and when. Meanwhile a bad player wont have a clue.
But high levels of play generally don't have bad players with good decks or good players with bad decks. Typically you'd just have good players with good decks.
Sluppie said:
I honestly think that the only way to "beat" Monstro is to use Monstro yourself and then build your deck around it. That way you can deal with WR (Monstro + Cerberus), Aggro using Support Friends without Monstro (They won't be able to use those friends), Dark Decks, Nobody Decks, etc, etc.
Valor and Kingdom Key are pretty much a shoe-in for any aggro deck.
Also, with the introduction of Jack, Auron, as well as a number of ways to clear your friend area, I think 1s and 2s are going to be a lot more common.
As for a good deck vs. a good player well... here's the way I see it.
A deck determines what a player can do. You obviously can't play a card that you don't have in your deck, so the maximum potential of your performance is limited to how you built your deck. However, even if your deck has a "high" potential, it's still up to you, as the player, to bring out that potential by using combos properly, knowing how cards interact with each other, etc. etc.
A good player will know what cards to hold on to, which to discard, how to play their cards and when. Meanwhile a bad player wont have a clue.
But high levels of play generally don't have bad players with good decks or good players with bad decks. Typically you'd just have good players with good decks.
Don't think I could have said it any better myself sir.
Yeah, what Dawn agreed to above = correct.
I'm happily surprised to see the OP conclude a JOAT deck is best - I tend to agree (mind you I haven't even delved into set 4 yet, so how I get to said conclusion is yet to be seen).
All decks have their merits though, if your agro deck is better, and you play it better, you can win agro v agro consistently it just might be a game with fewer options.
- dut
dutpotd said:
Yeah, what Dawn agreed to above = correct.
I'm happily surprised to see the OP conclude a JOAT deck is best - I tend to agree (mind you I haven't even delved into set 4 yet, so how I get to said conclusion is yet to be seen).
All decks have their merits though, if your agro deck is better, and you play it better, you can win agro v agro consistently it just might be a game with fewer options.
- dut
Wait, I'm confused..when did we agree JoaT is best? It's gotten better this set, but I still stick by my statement that it's inconsistant, slow, and lacks focus, a statement echoed by many...so could ya point out where we said it was better?
It's better than WR now, I'd say...but not by much.
WayToTheDawn said:
dutpotd said:
Yeah, what Dawn agreed to above = correct.
I'm happily surprised to see the OP conclude a JOAT deck is best - I tend to agree (mind you I haven't even delved into set 4 yet, so how I get to said conclusion is yet to be seen).
All decks have their merits though, if your agro deck is better, and you play it better, you can win agro v agro consistently it just might be a game with fewer options.
- dut
Wait, I'm confused..when did we agree JoaT is best? It's gotten better this set, but I still stick by my statement that it's inconsistant, slow, and lacks focus, a statement echoed by many...so could ya point out where we said it was better?
It's better than WR now, I'd say...but not by much.
me too actually. Dutpotd, It seems to me that you lack the ability to read previous posts and properly understand them. It's as though you project these preconceived notions about the game and expect everyone to agree with you...too bad, I guess you won't get any better then...shame..
and no JOAT will probably always be the worst archetype ever...It's a slow anything and has too many bad match-ups because of dead drops and heavy weight. a jack of all trades is always a poor idea in TCG's and this game is no exception, in fact I would say in this game you want to be more focused because the lack of sideboard options and obvious synergy within "worldly" cards like Pegasus and Aladdin. WR is at least focused with it's goal of WR-ing, as uninteractive as that is...
He said in the OP, pertaining to me, and my assumption that Valor JoaT is the best deck. I still think it may be, but there really needs to be a better answer for Phil. There is a direct one for Owl, Phil becomes trickier, and is often a string of monstro+simba lvl 3, or double simba. Which is when you just build the deck without magic, but then you hinder your options, as Wisdom Form would kick some ass at WR if they were allowed to get off their spells
The birth of a good JoaT deck will involve the combination of Wisdom and Valor forms, I think, where you're storing the Valor under Wisdom (which I still think should work, given everything the rulebook says), and then you ditch the Wisdom if you need that extra 5 or if you need to slaughter.
This has been bugging me for a while. I been noticing that what "JoaT" means?
Fairbanks said:
He said in the OP, pertaining to me, and my assumption that Valor JoaT is the best deck. I still think it may be, but there really needs to be a better answer for Phil. There is a direct one for Owl, Phil becomes trickier, and is often a string of monstro+simba lvl 3, or double simba. Which is when you just build the deck without magic, but then you hinder your options, as Wisdom Form would kick some ass at WR if they were allowed to get off their spells
The birth of a good JoaT deck will involve the combination of Wisdom and Valor forms, I think, where you're storing the Valor under Wisdom (which I still think should work, given everything the rulebook says), and then you ditch the Wisdom if you need that extra 5 or if you need to slaughter.
The thing that makes Joat bad is that it tries to do too much at one time, where it would be easier to just WR or Aggro.
The point is that it can switch from one to another, or focus solely on one instead of another in a game, depending on the opponent.
Fairbanks said:
The point is that it can switch from one to another, or focus solely on one instead of another in a game, depending on the opponent.
But I still don't get how this is better, how is a lack of focus better than focus?
...the deck is invairably going to be near the maximum size so it can include everything it needs to do both Aggro and WR, which should ultimately make it inconsistant at best and like you said, without a better answer to Phil your not going to be able to play the card drawing you need to get to your options fast enough unless, also like you said, you can pull off a string of Simbas, I've played around with it and these are the things I'm finding out. Am I missing something?
Fate said:
This has been bugging me for a while. I been noticing that what "JoaT" means?
'JoaT' is a shorter way of sayin Jack of All Trades deck. It means you can World Run if you so desire, or you can all out Aggro if you so desire.
For your focus argument, would you prefer that Tidus said "discard a target kairi card?" Versatility is a very powerful tool, and when you have enough atk power to clear most worlds, what's it going to hurt to toss in a few that bump your count to 13 as a fall back?
versatility is great!!! But too much versatility at the cost of focus just becomes cluttered and inconsitant.
on an individual level cards being more versatile is great because it simply does more!!!, there is no increased cost, tidus who just kills kairi costs 1 card, tidus who kills any lvl 0 costs the same, 1 card. so no kidding the latter is better
the thing with a balance/joat deck is that in improving versitity your costing yourself focus.
abstractly, if two people have the same amount of resourses and its a race to accmplish a goal the person who put 100% of those resources into one goal should acomplish that goal sooner than the person who puts 50% of their resources into two goals.
practically, it's the difference between drawing that lvl 3 world when you need to get rid of their valor, or drawing valor when you needed a 13th world.