I never mind the extra cards in chaptyer packs, especially when they are things like events in AGoT that i want to use in more then one deck or a nuetral character that can go into different factions decks so i like getting 9 of those types of cards.

I think the multiples of some and single of others works for me. I don't buy multiple Asylum Packs for CoC because I might not play the same factions as everyone else. If I have three of a card someone else plays, I'll trade it for his single that I do. Turn around and do it again with someone else. Now they have gotten three cards each without buying pack #2 and I have gotten three copies of a card I want from pack #1. Or just everyone buys a copy of the chapter/asylum pack and pass the cards you don't play to the guys that do. I might get fewer cards this month, but I'll get more next month. And in the end we all get what we play and remove the collectible aspect (which is THE reason I don't play CCGs).

Ok, this is just some uncontained rambling at this point, especially because the info so far provided has been very scarce, but anyway ... What I really hope for this game is to really feel like an epic, strategic empire building game. Those of you who know about the Mighty Empires (or even Warmaster) will probably understand what I'm talking about. The box illustration shows this epic clash of a hero and a monster about to unveil in the centre, but in the background there are untold masses of soldiery sweeping down the hillsides to meet in rows upon rows of iron, about to establish the supremacy of a single one empire. The cards seen so far, though beautiful, seem to have a somewhat different art directive, showing just a number of warriors at best, not ranks of pikemen or hordes of orcs. I understand that designers are probably coming from a more "boardgamey" background as opposed to a miniature wargaming one and it brings it's own influences in good and bad, I suppose. I understand that what I'm talking about is just a minor point of the overall game design and what's more, it might be my personal issue. I'm also aware that we've seen so far maybe 10, 15 cards at best, half of them unreadable beyond pretty colours. So all is still open, I'm not saying I don't like what I see at the moment. I just hope the overall feeling will be that of some epic-scaled conflict between massive empires, concerning groups of people of nationwide proportions (as opposed to a group of heroes/monsters dabling around the board with everything from combat to resources). Your thoughts?

Well I doubt it'll be much of an empire building thing... given that the game is supposed to be fast paced... Age of Empires TCG was NEVER fast paced...

I think (hope) its pacing is similar to that of the late end RvR aspects of warhammer online, which it seems closely tied to. consider http://www.warhammeronline.com/trial/ , go straight to the PvP area (the culmination of all of the Destro vs. Order aspects in WAR is called RvR or Realm versus Realm), and just do a ton of that (to simulate end game RvR in WAR). Its viscious, and does require some patience, and also some building of resources (like getting your people (other players) together and in the same place at the right time)...

Though I'm sure it'll have a few other concepts other than an MMO duplication as well (like a bit of building... building and such).

Yeah, RvR was my first thought as I checked the WH online ...

Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't wish for some 6 hour micromanagement simmulation either, I'm a big fan of fast gameplay. It's just, I don't know, kind of silly to be sending individual fighters to wage war for an Empire. Makes sense in MMO where players control individual heroes. Even in WH universe heroes always played an important part. But when it comes simply down to weather you'll have a picture of two dwarfs or a whole unit of them on a card ... again, I might be nitpicking. I'll have to see when they show us more.

well lets just say they do a good job with your concerns

@blackwolf

The mainpage's banner has a card of Big Un's. (it's a unit in the tabletop) so there will be "army/unit" cards.

Yeah I've seen it, it makes me happy.

I hope we get some more previews of this next week...

First Impressions? The game looks gorgeous and I'm very excited about it. My budget is already divided between Magic and Call of Cthulhu, but I'll give some thought to whether I can get into a third game.

I own 2 Call of Cthulhu core sets, and I buy 1 of each asylum pack per month (most of the time). I'd probably do the same for Warhammer, so once I've got the Warhammer core sets my expenses per month for both games will only be £15. Magic is the problem, but I've been playing long enough to know what suits my play style. I think I could cut back on Magic and buy just the singles I like.

It would feel nice to get into a game from the beginning - it sucks if you join late and miss out on some good packs. If only you could have packs printed to order in the same way websites offer books printed to order. Hey, I can dream.

I've never played Warhammer, but I'm familiar with the flavour, and I like the sound of the Orc and Dwarf factions. Hopefully they'll expand the number of races in future, because my favourite were the Lizardmen. I know my sister would play if there was a Skaven faction - she loves them.

Yeah more factions in the future please.I want the Vampire Counts and Tomb Kings.

Newbunkle said:

It will be tough to have Warhammer without at least SOME aspects of the game consisting of Skaven.

The biggest problem is in where to place these factions... Are Lizardmen fighting on the forces of 'Order' (which is pretty much already almost a slaughtering of traditional warhammer canon... )?

I mean the undead hardly ever fight with anyone. Maybe they'll introduce neutral armies and stronholds...?

vermillian said:

This is where I hope they will deviate from the MMO. Warhammer Online can't have a neutral "faction" (it's been discussed ad nauseum on their forums and won't work with the way the game was designed), but the LCG could easily introduce a neutral faction if they plan for it.

nullstate said:

I would argue that it potentially could work for the MMO, as Dark Age of Camelot was a 3 faction battle, although it might be a *tad* impractical with how they have everything set up. I also hope that this is where the LCG deviates, as not only do I not want the LCG to be bound to what the MMO is doing, I don't want to have to wait for new races to show up in the MMO for them to show up in the LCG! Who knows when new races will be added if they ever are.

I think undead would still be destruction, as that is the category they generally fall under. I know you could argue that they usually work for themselves, but at the same point you could argue that for any of the destruction forces, or even any of the order forces for that matter. So setting how things usually come down, if they don't do an unaligned or whatever side, here's how I'd see the breakdown of races not in the game yet:

Order - Lizardmen, Wood Elves, Bretonnians (sp?)

Destruction - Skaven, Undead (Zombie/Tomb lords), Chaos Dwarves

I think that's all of the current armies. I know Lizardmen might be a bit sketchy, but by their own fluff they are kinda good guys. In fact, I'd say they're more like Eldar than the High Elves even are (we have a dying, ancient, vastly technologically superior (in Magic force) Army and we don't think we need anyone else to help us destroy the forces of evil).

As much as I like all of this, I'm totally all over a Skaven deck. Another interesting deviation is that Chaos in the MMO is pretty bland. There are 4 distinctly different Chaos gods with distinctly different servants (soon to be seen in the upcoming FFG board game!), so one would think that there's quite a bit of room for growth. Of course that's true with all of the factions, as most of the uniqueness of the individual races are somewhat whitewashed by necessity of balance in the MMO.

Yup, still excited! I must also say for the record that I got Warcry for the PSP and once you get over the bad interface and complete lack of proper instruction book, it's decently fun. It might help you stave off your Warhammer desire for a little while, and (hopefully) we'll see how much better of a game Mr. Lang has created for us.

Lizardmen; that's easy, just don't forget whose descendants they are. I think army decks of individual races would could have been quite a hit.

Whose descendents ARE Lizardmen?

And to Fangs First:

Honestly, the factions of Chaos are more likely to volunterily work together than something like Dark Elves and Orcs teaming up... If I've got any handle on WHFB fluff. And also HOW DARE you suggest that the MMO Chaos has no character! The entire plot of the Chaos back story is that it is Tzeentch that the army is being led by. There are aspects of the others throughout the plot a bit, but its mostly the big Tz running things... then again I don't really read the quests that thoroughly...

Perhaps its also a bit 'chaos undivided' since I've noticed Chaos Magus are able to summon Nurglely things... ?

vermillian said:

Generally I would disagree. Chaos only unites against something big, other than that they tend to hate each other as much as any other foe.

Now that you say that about Chaos in the MMO it does make sense. The disks are a dead giveaway, but I guess the tank and healer are both generic chaos enough. The melee DPS does change his form which is very, very tzeench, but Chaos in old world Warhammer seems to get more random, chaotic changes (see the chaos beastmen) regardless of actual god. Of course the beastmen could be fully Tzeench and I just don't know, I'm only like 50-75% on WH fluff.

I think you could argue that it's still just Tzeench, as I could see a sorcerer binding another god's demons for their benefits.

As far as lizardmen, from wikipedia :

"The history of the Lizardmen began before the Old Ones arrived in the Warhammer world; some of the Slann traveled among the stars with their godlike masters. When the Old Ones arrived on the warhammer world, they settled in Lustria where they used the amphibious creatures already living there as slaves that would serve the Slann. Out of this the first spawnings of Saurus, Kroxigors, and Skinks were formed. During this time, the Slann spawned on the earth as the world was being shaped to how the Old Ones wished it. Armies of Saurus destroyed unwanted races as the Old Ones created the races of High Elves (powerful magicians), Dwarfs (magic resistant), and Men. Later, in the coming of Chaos, the Old Ones either went missing, or sacrificed themselves to try and destroy the polar gates and halt the never ending tide of Chaos in a cataclysmic explosion. Every race formed by the Old Ones fought against the threat of Chaos, including the great armies of the Lizardmen which consisted of millions of Saurus."

So, definitely they would be order according to this. Lucas, I think this is a different type of Old Ones, not the Great Old Ones, if that was where you were going. Also Lucas, who says they won't make single race decks? They've already said that you can do it, so why not do what they're doing with House Martell and Greyjoy: It's a smaller-than-core but bigger-than-chapter-pack release that has a playable [insert new race here] deck.

Or heck, they wouldn't have to even do that much, they could just start slipping them in to Chapter Packs and you might be able to quickly coalesce a new army. We don't even know how easy this is, as we have no idea (well most of us don't) what type of structures or other things there will be in the deck. I would speculate, but going by the previous Lang games, we have one with cards that are strictly resources and one where all cards can be used as resources, so I'll wait to get an intro to the game (which I'm doing with baited breath).

Heck, this made me start to play the MMO again! You know, mostly because I've just done everything that interests me in WoW, but still!

Let us know your screen name and server on the off topic forum! (not like this isn't off topic enough as it is)

And yes. in the MMO Destro is most definitely the big TZ. And given that the Beastmen aren't playable, its rather irrelevant what side they're on. lol (though I thought I saw some Khorne motifs on some stones in some tier 3 quest on Order Elf side...).

We should probably be chatting abotu all this in Off topic forums.. lol

But yeah. Excited about the LCG! Steve said that you can play all dwarf deck (you know it might not be that GREAT or anything but you can PLAY it! lol), so I believe it!

@ FangsFirst; I know they are other Old Ones (though you can't deny certain simmilarities), but there's the answer to which agenda the lizzies might follow. Of course they come in conflict with Empire in Lustria, for example, as, in fact does each race with eachother when it comes to the miniatures game.

Come to think of it, perhaps we see the whole Order/Destruction thing as too rigid; I don't think it's much about good and bad but more about different aspects of ambition; chaos' needs destruction to sustain, Empire for example needs order, none of which has anything to do with good and evil per se (even though Empire sees that as evil). It's more of a philosophical concept of what a certain race strives for, not some sort of allegiance in a political sense. In MMO the whole order/destruction dualism is probably a way to prevent some character parties that are a definite no-no from the WH cannon's standpoint. In this game it might be simmilar; some sort of a "fluff frame" and also a trick to ballance things out between factions. It's all speculation of course.

As long as Disorder vs Disorder and Order versus Order is possible, i'll be happy.

Why not? And if not,how about a neutral side for upcoming factions!!

Lucas Blackwolf said:

The Lovecraftian Great Old Ones are chaos as well, though. Even though we've seen Chaos fight Chaos, I don't get why they would destroy a Chaos gate to stop other Chaos from coming in. The races they created may not agree with one another, but they are fairly whole and wholesome compared to Chaos races and what you typically see from any of the GOO.

Everything else you say I agree with, typically the armies in the Warhammer universe are fragmented enough even people who seem like they should be fighting on the same side fight constantly, both in Fantasy and 40K. The whole Order/Destruction thing is totally just a "plot device" if you will, otherwise you'd have to develop strongholds for 6 different races plus more for any others that you add, which is just a nightmare on too many levels.

It also helps the LCG (so we're not entirely off-topic) because there are that many more options for each side. But I'm sure there will be house-ruled "Racial tourneys" where you can only play characters of one race/army.

Also it appears from the core of the game's mechanics that Order vs. Order and such would be possible...

Otherwise it'd be one of those failure games where I have to bring both a 'red team' and a 'blue team' deck so that my red deck can fight your blue deck if all you brought was a blue team deck (if you catch my drift).

That is an epic design apocalyptic failure I've seen implimented time after time, and continues to not do so hot... (star wars by decipher not-with-standing given its beginning of TCG history status, which sort of predates people's concepts of what makes a 'good' TCG).

vermillian said:

I know Decipher followed this scheme for their Star Wars game, but I'm unaware of any other games with particular peculiarity. What other games did you have in mind?

WotC did the same with their Star Wars game, light side vs dark side, which is one of the many reasons it died. Can't think of any others off the top of my head (at least not any that I've played personally). Decipher's new Fight Klub has hero vs villain for deckbuilding purposes, but hero can fight hero and villain can fight villain so you don't have to bring 2 decks to have a game.

On the order vs disorder front, STG did the same thing with WarCry and had the same main factions (High Elves/Empire/Dwarfs vs Dark Elves/Chaos/Orcs) long before the MMO used the same idea. Order v order and disorder v disorder were perfectly viable.

They also added most of the races that have been mentioned on here to the game one way or another, either as promos, in battle packs or in limited numbers in the main releases. Lizardmen, Wood Elves and Bretonnians for order; Vampire Counts, Skaven and Khemri for disorder; and Dogs of War, Ogre kingdoms and various other monsters as neutral units that could be added to either side.

Given that Steve's been on here singing the praises of this new game, and he's the one responsible for WarCry in the first place (still one of the finest CCGs I've ever played imho) I'd say it's a fair bet that we'll get things like this at some point (just not straight away).