I don't think WonderWaagh is a troll, he has a legitimate perspective and is well-intentioned (neither of which are features of trolls).

Well said.

Furthermore, when it comes to card games, I have always expected a few problematic details here and there. This LCG is no exception to my belief.

For the records, I can understand what WW is posting, and I certainly can entertain his reading of the rules. I don't think that he is trolling around.... We, as a collective group of gamers on these boards, don't have enough time to BS or drudge up stuff merely for the sake of argument. Well, I hope we don't/won't do so.

Compared to any other CCG and TCG, there is no stack or chain in this game . The only way to resolve a Reaction or an Interrupt is if you meet the condition. The current condition here are described word for word in the rules for an attack resolution as Step #1 for Ku'gath and Step #2 for Fire Warrior Elite.

There is no 'IF' or 'BUT' possible here.

Your confidence is inspiring. Perhaps FFG should have hired you onto the design team, eh?

FYI, there is a stack, of sorts. I recommend you try re-reading the Nested Ability Sequences section, and see if you don't come to that conclusion yourself.

Such abilities will nest on top of one another , creating a sequence of abilities, and these sequences need to be resolved in a “last in, first out” manner.

Ok here are my two cents:

WW might have a point: it's to do with when the fire warriors trigger and the words "would" and if""

the way i read it:

fire warior elite sez: "if you would (are about to) declare attack with a unit you have to declare that attack against us."

Kugath sez: "When i actually am declared as an attacker i move damage to another unit, bla bla bla)

so here goes:

0. fire warrior elite makes you declare them as the defender

1. Kugath is decalred as an attacker (and has to choose the firewarrior elite as the defender) and is exausted.

2. Kugats ability moves damage to fire warrior elite

3. Fire warrior elite has lethal dmage on it. Fire warior elite is dead.

4. Kugat attacks a target that is no longer there. I assume his attack "fizzles": he has no legal target to deal damage to and he remains exausted.

Compared to any other CCG and TCG, there is no stack or chain in this game . The only way to resolve a Reaction or an Interrupt is if you meet the condition. The current condition here are described word for word in the rules for an attack resolution as Step #1 for Ku'gath and Step #2 for Fire Warrior Elite.

There is no 'IF' or 'BUT' possible here.

Your confidence is inspiring. Perhaps FFG should have hired you onto the design team, eh?

Perhaps they should have. I'm pretty sure Timezero knows that:

• Strapping a DOZERBLADE on a VALKYRIE shouldn't work.
• You can't hit people at ANOTHER PLANET with a SWORD!
• Spacewolves don't hand over their pet wolves to the enemy.

For the record I don't think WW is a troll. He (sometimes) just sounds like one.

Ok here are my two cents:

WW might have a point: it's to do with when the fire warriors trigger and the words "would" and if""

the way i read it:

fire warior elite sez: "if you would (are about to) declare attack with a unit you have to declare that attack against us."

Kugath sez: "When i actually am declared as an attacker i move damage to another unit, bla bla bla)

so here goes:

0. fire warrior elite makes you declare them as the defender

1. Kugath is decalred as an attacker (and has to choose the firewarrior elite as the defender) and is exausted.

2. Kugats ability moves damage to fire warrior elite

3. Fire warrior elite has lethal dmage on it. Fire warior elite is dead.

4. Kugat attacks a target that is no longer there. I assume his attack "fizzles": he has no legal target to deal damage to and he remains exausted.

Making an attack goes in the order of 1) Declare attacker 2) Declare Defender 3) Resolve Attack.

So the steps are actually:

1. Kugath is decalred as an attacker ( and has to choose the firewarrior elite as the defender ) and is exausted.

2. Kugats ability moves damage to fire warrior elite

3. Fire warrior elite has lethal dmage on it. Fire warior elite is dead.

0. fire warrior elite makes you declare them as the defender

4. Kugat attacks a target that is no longer there.

How would you say Fire Warrior Elite interacts with The Shining Blade?

Interupt: When attached unit declares an attack, declare that attack against an enemy unit at an adjacent planet instead.

My take:

If the FWE and the SB are on the same planet, then they both trigger off the same condition and happen simulatneously. In such cases, the player with initiative gets to choose the order in which they resolve. (RRG p12 "Priority of Simulatneous Resolution") The last effect to resolve is the one that sticks.(RRG p13 Replacement Effects) So if a player resolves FWE first and SB second, a unit at an adjacent planet will be declared Defender. And if SB is resolved first and FWE is resolved second, then the FWE will be the unit declared Defender.

(If the FWE and the SB target are on the adjacent planet and the SB uses its interupt to attack the SB target , then FWE can use its interupt to be declared the Defender. )

Edit: Actually I'm not too sure on that last scenario in parenthesis. I now think it might be that the SB target gets attacked even if the FWE is there.

From RRG p 11 "Nested Ability Sequences" : Interrupt and reaction effects may, however, cause new conditions that can initiate a subsequent series of interrupt and reaction abilities. Such abilities will nest on top of one another, creating a sequence of abilities and these sequences need to be sesolved in a "last-in, first out" manner".

So FWE's ability is nested on top of the SB's ability. Because of the "last-in, first-out" sequence, FWE's ability resolves first, then SB follows. And because they are replacement effects, only the latest effect(SB) applies.

FWE triggers a replacement effect in the declare attackers step.

When it resolves you must declare EFW as the defender.

Wether or not the unit is still in play is besides the point.

You say "the unit is dead so it's ability wont work anymore" but the ability has already worked.

It's like shooting (kugath) a guy who's throwing a grenade (EFW). You may have shot the guy, but the grenade is already flying trough the air.

The way i read FWE ability is: " if you declare an attacker, then you must declare a unit called FWE as the defender when you get to the declare defenders step."

I believe that both kugath and FWE trigger during the declare attackers step.

First kugaths reaction, but then the FWE's interupt makes their ability go off first.

(During the declare attackers step)

kugath is declared the attacker.

FWE makes you choose them as the defender

kugath deals his damage

FWE dies.

Now the FWE is no longer in play when we get to the declare defenders step.

(During the declare defenders step) you must declare FWE as the defender, but you cannot because that unit is no longer in play.

Ku'goth's ability is a reaction to "Declare attacker". FWE is an interrupt to "Declare Defender". So Ku'goth's move damage ability resolves first.

Here is a snipet of the explanation of the timing of interrupt/reaction windows by PBrennan over at cardgamedb:

Interrupt Window: (when: attacks, declared as an attacker, exhausts)

Declare attacker

Reaction Window : (after: declared as an attacker, exhausts )

Interrupt Window : (when: declared as a defender, declares an attack )

Declare defender

Reaction Window : (after: declared as a defender, declares an attack )

FWE triggers a replacement effect in the declare attackers step.

When it resolves you must declare EFW as the defender.

Wether or not the unit is still in play is besides the point.

You say "the unit is dead so it's ability wont work anymore" but the ability has already worked.

It's like shooting (kugath) a guy who's throwing a grenade (EFW). You may have shot the guy, but the grenade is already flying trough the air.

FWE is an interrupt to "Declare Defender". because declaring an attack is specifically a part of the "Declare Defender" step(RRG p 25)

Ku'goth fully resolves and kills the FWE before the FWE's ability can trigger.

To use your example, it's like shooting the guy before he armed the grenade.

How would you say Fire Warrior Elite interacts with The Shining Blade?

Interupt: When attached unit declares an attack, declare that attack against an enemy unit at an adjacent planet instead.

My take:

If the FWE and the SB are on the same planet, then they both trigger off the same condition and happen simulatneously. In such cases, the player with initiative gets to choose the order in which they resolve. (RRG p12 "Priority of Simulatneous Resolution") The last effect to resolve is the one that sticks.(RRG p13 Replacement Effects) So if a player resolves FWE first and SB second, a unit at an adjacent planet will be declared Defender. And if SB is resolved first and FWE is resolved second, then the FWE will be the unit declared Defender.

(If the FWE and the SB target are on the adjacent planet and the SB uses its interupt to attack the SB target , then FWE can use its interupt to be declared the Defender. )

Edit: Actually I'm not too sure on that last scenario in parenthesis. I now think it might be that the SB target gets attacked even if the FWE is there.

From RRG p 11 "Nested Ability Sequences" : Interrupt and reaction effects may, however, cause new conditions that can initiate a subsequent series of interrupt and reaction abilities. Such abilities will nest on top of one another, creating a sequence of abilities and these sequences need to be sesolved in a "last-in, first out" manner".

So FWE's ability is nested on top of the SB's ability. Because of the "last-in, first-out" sequence, FWE's ability resolves first, then SB follows. And because they are replacement effects, only the latest effect(SB) applies.

When there are multiple non-Forced interruptions/reactions that could trigger from a single condition, the player with initiative gets the first opportunity to interrupt/react and opportunities then alternate until both players pass consecutively, but doesn't get to choose the whole order (that is only for Forced interruptions/reactions); note that there might be relevant interruptions/reactions on events in the hand of the other player, which the player with initiative would normally know nothing about.

And actually, SB and FWE do not have the same timing: SB interrupts the attack declaration as a whole ("when attached unit declares an attack"), while FWE interrupts the defender declaration ("when an enemy unit would declare an attack against a unit you control at this planet"). So if FWE is at the same planet as the unit with SB, its interrupt will be irrelevant once SB's is used, but if it is at the planet where the new defender is, its interrupt can override SB's.

I would like to point out to the rules guys. moving damage is not a attack your just moving it away from your warlord to another. pg10 rulebook clearly states moved damage bypasses all damage prevention and REASSIGN opportunities. and is placed directly upon the card to wich it has been moved.

another words it cant be shielded and/or sent to another card. that kinda says it all to me

When there are multiple non-Forced interruptions/reactions that could trigger from a single condition, the player with initiative gets the first opportunity to interrupt/react and opportunities then alternate until both players pass consecutively, but doesn't get to choose the whole order (that is only for Forced interruptions/reactions); note that there might be relevant interruptions/reactions on events in the hand of the other player, which the player with initiative would normally know nothing about.

I see now. Thanks. I didn't realize there was a difference in handling Forced and non-Forced abilities.

And actually, SB and FWE do not have the same timing: SB interrupts the attack declaration as a whole ("when attached unit declares an attack"), while FWE interrupts the defender declaration ("when an enemy unit would declare an attack against a unit you control at this planet"). So if FWE is at the same planet as the unit with SB, its interrupt will be irrelevant once SB's is used, but if it is at the planet where the new defender is, its interrupt can override SB's.

My arguement against this is a bit superfluous since either way the conclusion of FWE vs SB is the same, but eh here it is anyway. I still think that SB and FWE have the same timing. The key phrase is "declares an attack", which puts them both in the "Declare defender" step.

From the timing windows given by PBrennan: (underline emphasis mine)

--

Interrupt Window : (when: declared as a defender, declares an attack )

Declare defender

Reaction Window : (after: declared as a defender, declares an attack )

--

If anything, I would guess that "Makes an attack" would be the phrase that encompasses all 3 steps. I haven't seen any cards use that phrase though.

Except Ku'Gath SPECIFICALLY uses the term 'declared as an attacker'. That happens before the defender is chosen. Every reaction to 'declared as an attacker' has to be resolved before moving on.

FWE interrupts if another unit has an attack declared AGAINST it. You can't declare an attack AGAINST something until you've declared it as the defender. By the time you reach this step, you've already reacted to Ku'Gath being declared an attacker and killed FWE.

The way i read FWE ability is: " if you declare an attacker, then you must declare a unit called FWE as the defender when you get to the declare defenders step."

I believe that both kugath and FWE trigger during the declare attackers step.

First kugaths reaction, but then the FWE's interupt makes their ability go off first.

(During the declare attackers step)

kugath is declared the attacker.

FWE makes you choose them as the defender

kugath deals his damage

FWE dies.

Now the FWE is no longer in play when we get to the declare defenders step.

(During the declare defenders step) you must declare FWE as the defender, but you cannot because that unit is no longer in play.

Ku'goth's ability is a reaction to "Declare attacker". FWE is an interrupt to "Declare Defender". So Ku'goth's move damage ability resolves first.

Here is a snipet of the explanation of the timing of interrupt/reaction windows by PBrennan over at cardgamedb:

Interrupt Window: (when: attacks, declared as an attacker, exhausts)

Declare attacker

Reaction Window : (after: declared as an attacker, exhausts )

Interrupt Window : (when: declared as a defender, declares an attack )

Declare defender

Reaction Window : (after: declared as a defender, declares an attack )

FWE triggers a replacement effect in the declare attackers step.

When it resolves you must declare EFW as the defender.

Wether or not the unit is still in play is besides the point.

You say "the unit is dead so it's ability wont work anymore" but the ability has already worked.

It's like shooting (kugath) a guy who's throwing a grenade (EFW). You may have shot the guy, but the grenade is already flying trough the air.

FWE is an interrupt to "Declare Defender". because declaring an attack is specifically a part of the "Declare Defender" step(RRG p 25)

Ku'goth fully resolves and kills the FWE before the FWE's ability can trigger.

To use your example, it's like shooting the guy before he armed the grenade.

You (and several others) are correct.

Thanks for pointing out that line in the rulebook.

Somehow i got declare attacker and declare attack mixed together in my head. You would think that declaring an attack would be in the declare attacker step but in hindsight it makes sense that you have not fully decalred an attack until you have declared who you are attacking.

So, once again: you got it right.

I would like to point out to the rules guys. moving damage is not a attack your just moving it away from your warlord to another. pg10 rulebook clearly states moved damage bypasses all damage prevention and REASSIGN opportunities. and is placed directly upon the card to wich it has been moved.

another words it cant be shielded and/or sent to another card. that kinda says it all to me

No one is arguing about the damage being moved. The argument is if a dead card can redirect the attack to itself. (Which it can't )

All the correct people have already made their point may as well just let the ignorant play it their own way until a faq is released (hopefully before regionals)

No one is arguing about the damage being moved. The argument is if a dead card can redirect the attack to itself. (Which it can't )

That's also not quite what the debate is about.

Honestly, I don't think it really matters in this case.

Kugath declairs an attack.

Firewarriors interupt the process yell "Hey attack me!" and draw his attention.

Declaration of attack is now finished with the Fire Warriors as the target, and Kugath's reaction ability to that attack engages before the next step.

Kugath spews his guts all over the Firewarriors and finishes them off with his special ability.

Kugath now swings his sword over the dead bodies of the Tau to further add insult to injury.

Attack ends.

That seems to be the spirit and the "story" of the battle to me

What he should have done is "spew his guts" over another unit to damage it, then use his attack to kill of the Fire Warriors the old fashioned way.

He doesn't have to use his special ability on the Fire Warriors, just have them locked in as his defending target.

No, that's not how the timing works. Ku'gath reacts to being declared as an attacker, while Fire Warrior Elite interrupts the declaration of a defender. Reactions to an earlier step are resolved before interruptions of a later step, so Ku'gath's reaction resolves before Fire Warrior Elite's interrupt.

Yeah you're right. Kugath is declared as an attacker and tapped. Once that step is complete his reaction ability triggers and he assigns one damage to anyone he wants (in this case the Fire Warriors). The Fire Warriors are removed from play because the number of damage tokens on them is equal to their health. The declair defender step starts. Fire Warriors are no long in play so cannot use their "Interupt."

I still like my story better though