I was watching a game on Youtube when the following situation came up

There is a Kugath with damage on one side, a fire warrior elite on the other side with 4 damage on, and another Tau unit at the planet.

They ruled in the video that Kugath had to attack the fire warrior elite even if he moved damage to it, which I disagree with.

Kugath : When this Warlord is declared as an attacker, move 1 damage from this Warlord to another unit at the same planet.

Fire Warrior Elite : When an enemy unit would declare an attack against a unit you control at this planet, declare this unit as the defender instead.

When does Fire Warrior Elite's ability trigger, and does it even matter?

Steps to attacking

Declare Attacker

Declare Defender

Deal Damage

Kugath triggers on being declared as an attacker, at which point he could move the damage to the fire warrior elite, killing it. So either Fire Warrior Elite triggers when a different unit is declared as a defender to move the attack (at this point it is dead and so couldn't react), or it declares upon declaring the attacker to force the attack (but since it dies during the declare attacker step it is no longer a legal target of an attack, so Kugath is free to declare a different defender).

Am I correct in this?

Sounds about right, reactions to the Declare Attacker step would resolve before moving on, and when the Fire Warrior dies, it is no longer in a position to jump in front of anyone else's attacks.

The Tau ability is an interrupt. Interrupt triggers resolve before or in place of the triggering condition, not after. Think of it as a replacement effect, best signified by use of the words "when" and "instead." The original ruling was correct.

If this interrupts the Declare Defender step it will already be too late as the Fire Warrior will have died from the moved damage after Ku'Gath has been declared the attacker.

The Tau ability is an interrupt. Interrupt triggers resolve before or in place of the triggering condition, not after. Think of it as a replacement effect, best signified by use of the words "when" and "instead." The original ruling was correct.

True, but Fire Warrior Elite is not interrupting the same thing Ku'gath is reacting to. Since Ku'gath is reacting to something that occurs before what Fire Warrior Elite is interrupting, the reaction comes first. So the original ruling was incorrect.

Specifically, according to the rules text:

"2) Declare defender. The attacking player chooses one enemy unit at the planet, and declares this attack is against it . This declares the chosen unit as the 'defender.'" (RRG, p. 25)

When Fire Warrior Elite interrupts the process of "declaring an attack against a unit you control," it is interrupting Step #2 in the combat turn process. Ku'gath's reaction is to Step #1 of the process (being declared as an attacker). So Ku'gath would use his Reaction between Steps #1 and #2, while Fire Warrior Elite has to wait until Step #2 starts in order to interrupt it. Said another way, Ku'gath being declared as an attacker is a separate (and earlier) thing from that attack being declared against any enemy unit.

If this interrupts the Declare Defender step it will already be too late as the Fire Warrior will have died from the moved damage after Ku'Gath has been declared the attacker.

Beat me to it. But since I was almost through typing when it posted, I'll throw in the rules text to change you "if" to "because."

The Tau card doesn't say anything about defenders until the very end, which is at best misleading, and at worst horrendous templating. We could argue all day long about intent, but it seems that it should have at least been worded "when an enemy unit would declare a defender" in order to operate as you describe. The way it currently reads, I find no issue with ruling either way. I'm curious, do my protests about the quality of this game's ruleset still fall on deaf ears?

To better illustrate my point:

Always resolve interrupts to a triggering condition before resolving the consequences of the triggering condition itself.

After all interrupts to the original triggering condition have resolved and it is time to resolve the triggering condition itself, the replacement effect resolves instead.

The question that must be begged, then, is what is the specific triggering condition for the interrupt? The card reads " When an enemy unit would declare an attack against a unit you control at this planet, declare this unit as the defender instead." Two separate steps are outlined in a single breath, not one, leaving us to wonder at which point the trigger kicks in. Is it after the first comma? Or after the complete sentence? Or, because that first portion is actually two discreet sub-steps, does the trigger kick in between them?

When Fire Warrior Elite interrupts the process of "declaring an attack against a unit you control," it is interrupting Step #2 in the combat turn process.

This is what I take issue with, ultimately. The templating and phraseology of the Tau card conforms more to the act of declaring an attack than declaring a defender, at which point the interrupt must surely come into effect. This is less a matter of a single word tripping us up than it is an entire sentence not properly reflecting the rules of the game.

Guess I'm just not seeing as severe a disconnect as you are.

With the description in the rules for "Declare Defender" establishing that "declare an attack against a unit" means "an enemy unit is chosen by the attacking player during a combat turn," I don't see any real confusion as to which step is being referred to by the Tau unit's interrupt.

Do I need the rules text in conjunction with the card text to be sure? Probably.

Is there any doubt as to the outcome when I do put the card text together with the rules text? No.

Your protests about the quality of the rules set aren't falling on deaf ears. I just don't agree with your sense of the scope or proportion of the problems. This being a good example. I don't think the "phraseology of the Tau card conforms" to more than one triggering condition. It would be nice if the phraseology was such that I didn't have to open up the rule book to confirm which triggering condition it does conform to, but once I do that, I have no problem seeing how the sentence reflects to rules of the game.

We're both seeing different things, and I don't mind chalking it up to a difference of opinion.

@WonderWAAAGH I agree with you the wording on the Fire Warrior is unclear, which makes when it triggers ambiguous.

The only other argument I can make for the timing of the interrupt is that it specifies "a unit you control at this planet", which technically wouldn't be determined until the declare defender step, at which point the Fire Warrior has already died because Kugath triggers during the declare attacker step. Would you agree?

Again, it's hard to say because a single sentence encompasses two discreet steps. When the card reads "declares an attack," my first inclination is to read that as the declare attackers step. Defenders aren't even mentioned until the very end. The question remains, when does the trigger kick in? To quote myself:

Is it after the first comma? Or after the complete sentence? Or, because that first portion is actually two discreet sub-steps, does the trigger kick in between them?

Any one of those options is justifiable, depending on how you choose to interpret it.

Declaring an attack is a process with several steps (outlined in the original post). The defender is defined in the 2nd step, and it's at this point that the attack is declared "against" a specific unit.

Sorry chief, but make an attack is the specific process that you're referring to, with the declare attacker portion being a discreet sub-step. Might want to bone up on them rules; they're on page 26 of the RRG.

Attack =/= Attacker

Declare = Declare

Perhaps we're starting to see the issue here. There are several different elements to an attack that are defined, in bold, by the book: make an attack, declare attacker, declare defender, resolve combat. The card in question does not make concrete reference to any of those elements, hence the apparent confusion. Failing references to specific keywords or phrases from the rulebook, the best we can do is make an approximate guess using the card's phraseology, vague as it may be. Declaring an attack seems to me as good a place as any to focus.

To make an attack, perform the following steps, in order:

1) Declare attacker. The attacking player chooses one ready unit he controls at the planet, and exhausts it to attack. This declares the chosen unit as the “attacker.”

2) Declare defender. The attacking player chooses an enemy unit at the planet, and declares this attack is against it. This declares the chosen unit as the “defender.”

3) Resolve attack. Deal damage equal to the attacker’s attack value (ATK) to the defender. (See Dealing Damage, page 6). If the attacker or the defender leaves play before this step executes, no damage is dealt during this step.

Note that interrupt and reaction abilities could specify triggering conditions in relation to any of the above steps.

So step 1 declares attack moves 1 damage to elite killing it no longer alive in step 2 so can't use it's ability to redirect to itself

Where I feel they could have used different phrasing (perhaps "after another friendly unit at this planet is declared as defender" or something similar) I find it hard to argue with the above reasoning. An attack can't be declared 'against' anything until the defender is chosen.

Ku'gath is thankfully very specific in this regard, so we know that he triggers at the very first stage of making an attack.

Again, it's hard to say because a single sentence encompasses two discreet steps. When the card reads " declares an attack ," my first inclination is to read that as the declare attackers step. Defenders aren't even mentioned until the very end. The question remains, when does the trigger kick in?

You are incorrect here plain and simple. It's written word for word as cold-hard fact how the combat works and you still try to argue. When you say " declares an attack ", you are just seeing what you want to see because there is no period until the end of the sentence. The effect doesn't end after " declares an attack " as you're implying. Read the whole sentence please.

Fire Warrior Elite : [start of the effect] When an enemy unit would declare an attack against a unit you control at this planet, declare this unit as the defender instead. [End of the effect]

No period is present to separate the effect in half. That sentence is one single effect with one single outcome.

Step 1: you declare your attacker, Ku'garth's reaction applies.

Step 2: you declare the defender, Fire Warrior Elite isn't alive anymore since he already died in the step 1.

Step 3: resolve damage

If you still want to argue, then you're just trolling at this point.

Khouri and ktom said this already, but the rule book does make it clear.

----------

RRG 3.2.6 page 26

To make an attack, perform the following steps, in order:

1) Declare attacker. The attacking player chooses one ready unit he controls at the planet, and exhausts it to attack. This declares the chosen unit as the "attacker"

2) Declare defender. The attacking player chooses an enemy unit at the planet, and declares this attack is against it . This declares the chosen unit as the "defender".

--------

Compare the bolded with the bolded text of the Fire Warrior Elite.

Fire Warrior Elite: When an enemy unit would declare an attack against a unit you control at this planet , declare this unit as the defender instead.

The wording "declare an attack against a unit" appears in the Declare Defender Step and not before, so it seems pretty clear that the Fire Warrior Elite's effect interrupts the Declare Defender Step.

Again, it's hard to say because a single sentence encompasses two discreet steps. When the card reads " declares an attack ," my first inclination is to read that as the declare attackers step. Defenders aren't even mentioned until the very end. The question remains, when does the trigger kick in?

You are incorrect here plain and simple. It's written word for word as cold-hard fact how the combat works and you still try to argue. When you say " declares an attack ", you are just seeing what you want to see because there is no period until the end of the sentence. The effect doesn't end after " declares an attack " as you're implying. Read the whole sentence please.

Fire Warrior Elite : [start of the effect] When an enemy unit would declare an attack against a unit you control at this planet, declare this unit as the defender instead. [End of the effect]

No period is present to separate the effect in half. That sentence is one single effect with one single outcome.

Step 1: you declare your attacker, Ku'garth's reaction applies.

Step 2: you declare the defender, Fire Warrior Elite isn't alive anymore since he already died in the step 1.

Step 3: resolve damage

If you still want to argue, then you're just trolling at this point.

You'll have to show me in the rules where triggers occur in relation to full stops. Perhaps that section also explains how having a difference of opinion makes one a troll.

It's not having a differing opinion that makes you a troll. It's refusing to listen to any arguments against yours and insisting you're right against everyone (including people officially on the rules team on occasion).

You'll have to show me in the rules where triggers occur in relation to full stops. Perhaps that section also explains how having a difference of opinion makes one a troll.

A triggering condition is an element of a card ability that

indicates the time at which the ability may be triggered.

A triggering condition specifies a game moment, and

usually follows the word “when” (for interrupt abilities)

or the word “after” (for reaction abilities).

@WonderWaaagh

How would you say Fire Warrior Elite interacts with The Shining Blade?

Interupt: When attached unit declares an attack, declare that attack against an enemy unit at an adjacent planet instead.

It's not having a differing opinion that makes you a troll. It's refusing to listen to any arguments against yours and insisting you're right against everyone (including people officially on the rules team on occasion).

I do think WonderWaagh sees many things in a different light. Which indeed does not make him a troll and in fact sometimes it's a good way to see things from this different perspective.

The Warhammer Xenos books also mention that Orks have a different way of seeing things in general. It could mean that WonderWaagh is actually an Ork.

I don't think WonderWaagh is a troll, he has a legitimate perspective and is well-intentioned (neither of which are features of trolls).

Compared to any other CCG and TCG, there is no stack or chain in this game . The only way to resolve a Reaction or an Interrupt is if you meet the condition. The current condition here are described word for word in the rules for an attack resolution as Step #1 for Ku'gath and Step #2 for Fire Warrior Elite.

There is no 'IF' or 'BUT' possible here.