Cancellation may not be essential, but I've lost way too many games due to the inability to cancel things. I'm not looking for anything nearly as simple and straightforward as Spirit's cancellation. I'm looking for something more akin to the new Lore event. It needs to be set up before you can cancel anything, and you're very limited in what you can cancel. Tactics and Leadership should have something similar. It doesn't need to be treachery cancellation. If it cancels something specific to enemies, that's great too. If it can only cancel something if you've destroyed an enemy earlier that round, then it'll only work in direct damage decks, and that'll be fine. Make it as situational as you want, but I think every sphere should have some kind of cancellation, especially when it comes to multiplayer, where the effects can potentially more dangerous and far more chances are given to the encounter deck to reveal its dark side. Heck just give tactics some shadow cancellation and skip the encounter cancellation.

Spirit excels at so many things. I just want each sphere to have a minor way to contribute more than numbers toward defeating the scariest parts of the encounter decks: card effects.

There is a fine line. Give tactics some cancellation and it will become staple and will be put in each and every tactics deck. Restrict it too much and it will almost never see the light of day. Things like this are extremely hard to balance.

yup, I'd rather not see cancellation in either leadership or tactics. Perhaps shadow cancellation in tactics, but certainly no 'when revealed' or encounter deck manipulation.

Yeah, even though it got empowered in the HoN / AtS cycle, Tactics is still "not there" yet on par with the other three spheres. At least, a form of shadow control, albeit an indirect one, has started to show its face in the form of Gondorian Discipline and Close Call, as well as the spoiled Gondorian in the upcoming TLR. One can hope that this trend continues. The DT might be worried that giving Tactics raw shadow cancellation might seriously tip the balance in favor of the Tactics player vs the encounter deck in the combat department. Indirect shadow control is fine by me.

I can see tactics cancelling a when revealed, or forced effect from a non-unique enemy. Deflecting and and otherwise denying their foes the advantage fits well IMO.

I don't know if tactics deserves a 'when revealed' cancellation, but how about a surge cancel? I think self-damaging effects would be a very nice sub-theme in the tactics sphere. Erkenbrand introduced our first self-damaging ability, so far as I am aware; he is Leadership, but i think that mechanic would also fit nicely framed in Red. Damage a character or hero you control to cancel a Surge effect, or Doomed, or to prevent put an ally that has just been discarded back into your hand or into play, that kind of thing.

Balance in games is not only misunderstood by many on a design level, but most of the comments in this thread do not even seam to take into account that this is a co-op game and a thematic one at that.

The spheres shouldn't be (and aren't) balanced and they hopefully never will be. As a co-op game we are forced to make sphere decisions based on that spheres specialities. This is how it should be. If you started putting cancels in tactics or card draw in or w/e it would massively alter the entire way the game plays.

Basically I read parts of this threads and what people are in fact saying is.. "I like X Sphere, I wish it did more so I didn't have to splash" which imo it kinda ridicules in a game that is totally focused on co-op.

I'm not upset that I have to splash. I'm upset that Spirit is the main splash because without it you don't have repeatable hero action advantage, "when revealed" cancellation, shadow cancellation, or surge cancellation. This has been shifting lately with Lore getting 2 new readying cards, soon to get encounter card cancellation, and Leadership got Heir of Mardil. Leadership and Lore have also had shadow cancellation in one form another, but Tactics remains the odd man out. It has pseudo shadow cancellation by having damage cancellation, but that only works on certain types of shadows and only if it can cancel enough damage.

I'm not asking for a power card. I'm asking for a situational card. The Door is Closed is a great example. It is by no means an auto-include, but it gives Lore some cancellation it never had before and that we sorely needed to see outside of Spirit. You need to build your deck specifically for it in order to make it worthwhile. Why can't Tactics do this? There combat experience can't be used to negate an enemy's ability?

I understand the opinion that we shouldnt be blending the spheres. I believe that, yet there have been advances toward a pseudo blending: Tactics has card draw with Legolas and readying with Rohan Warhorse. Lore has gained readying and cancellation. It goes on and on, but each of these blends fit into the flavor of their respective spheres. There's no reason we can't continue this to give Tactics SOME kind of cancellation.

As a side note, please remeber that this is discussion on opinions. I'm not trying to start a fight and I don't want to see belittling. We, as a community, must be better than that.

How about something like this:

Shining Mail (tactics attachment) Cost: 3

Item. Armor.

Attach to a Rohan or (tactics) hero. Restricted. Limit one per hero.

Attached hero gets +2 Hit Points. While attached hero is defending, Shining Mail gains: "Response: Discard Shining Mail to cancel a shadow effect just triggered."

Wow, restricted that costs a lot, gives sheet and discards itself. Would totally play.

Balance in games is not only misunderstood by many on a design level, but most of the comments in this thread do not even seam to take into account that this is a co-op game and a thematic one at that.

The spheres shouldn't be (and aren't) balanced and they hopefully never will be. As a co-op game we are forced to make sphere decisions based on that spheres specialities. This is how it should be. If you started putting cancels in tactics or card draw in or w/e it would massively alter the entire way the game plays.

Basically I read parts of this threads and what people are in fact saying is.. "I like X Sphere, I wish it did more so I didn't have to splash" which imo it kinda ridicules in a game that is totally focused on co-op.

i hope by the term "balanced" you mean "homogenized". Spheres should be "balanced" - in that they have approximately equal levels of power to affect the game in a positive manner and ensure victory.

Now, there might be certain quests that favor a particular color, and spheres should be better/worse at certain things in relation to one-another... But saying "things shouldn't be balanced" is rather silly.

Let's pretend that there are only two important parts to this game, Questing and Combat. It's very likely that Questing and Combat are not EQUALLY important in every quest and in every stage of the game.

If each compenent to the game has a particular coefficient based on how "important" it is, then each color should have a second coefficient that represents how good it performs that task.

For example, let's pretend that the game was actually extremely Combat-Orientated and there were only two parts to the game (obviously incorrect). 0.33*Questing + 0.67*Combat.

That means that two "balanced" spheres might have power coefficients of (3, 1) for Spirit and (1, 2) for Tactics. Even though Tactics is only twice-as-good as combat compared to Spirit, while Spirit is three-times-better than Tactics at questing, the actual strength of the two spheres are BALANCED.

Versus "homogenous" where each Sphere has very similar power-coefficients for every single major part of the game.

(Also, i do think it's sort of strange to say that Tactics doesn't actually have Shadow Card cancellation? Feint and Thicket of Spears. Sure, it doesn't work on Nightmare-Balrog or Sleeping Sentry on a Cave Bat, but...)

I understand the opinion that we shouldnt be blending the spheres. I believe that, yet there have been advances toward a pseudo blending: Tactics has card draw with Legolas and readying with Rohan Warhorse. Lore has gained readying and cancellation. It goes on and on, but each of these blends fit into the flavor of their respective spheres. There's no reason we can't continue this to give Tactics SOME kind of cancellation.

Blending or repeated card effects are not intrinsically bad. Even "strictly inferior" cards are not a waste of cardboard. If there existed a different version of Test of Will that canceled a "when revealed" for 1 resource + 1 random discard, it would be worth running 3 copies of Test of Will + 3 copies of sh*tty Test of Will against certain quests.

This is even more-true when talking about different Sphere: In one-player mode, Dawn Take You All! is almost always a strictly inferior version of Hasty Stroke: it costs one more mana and only works on face-down shadow cards. (it can cancel "uncancellable" shadows like Nightmare Balrog, so it's not always strictly inferior).

However, DTYA! exists in a sphere with greater access to resource acceleration, and its cards are generally budgeted at a higher cost than other spheres. Shadow-Card cancellation is also a "tertiary" power-budget for Leadership. It puts has primary/secondary budgets for resource-acceleration, AoE buffing/debuffing effects and ally-mustering.

Anyway, the key part would be to give Tactics some sort of cancellation that fit its particular power-budget and themes. Giving them a Burning Brand would be rather inappropiate - espiecially in the context of Beregond.

Similarily, an Event might be a little abusable when it comes to Hama, since then you could have 6 "Feints" when combined with a good defending ally such as Defender of Rammas (though this would be less of a problem if it cost 2 resources).

A probably more-thematic way of doing it would be a 2/3 resource ally that had a Burning Brand effect. Maybe we could even work in the new Valour keyword which would probably work really well for Tactics anyway.

<3>

<0>

<1>

<2>

<2>

While <this card> is defending, cancel any shadow effects on cards dealt to the attacking enemy.

Valour Response: Discard <this card> to cancel the "when revealed" effects of a card that was just revealed from the encounter deck.

I wouldn't put both of those effects on a single ally. Also, I don't actually want something that cancels "when revealed" effects in essentially the same way that A Test of Will does. I'd probably aim the cancellation specifically at enemies in some way just because we are talking about Tactics. In any case, I think that if Tactics would have cancellation, it would sacrifice a character (like you did) or maybe a weapon attachment. I think discarding a weapon (or armor) attachment would be a great way to bring the power of the card down while still keeping it playable in many decks, though I'm not sure how you would justify it thematically.

I also believe that a shadow cancellation card that limits itself to only working on a defender with 2 or less defense or requires discarding an (armor?) attachment from the defending character offers similar balance.

Sure.

Part of that was just being a demonstration of how you can offer different tertiary abilities to spheres that also fit the theme of the decks...

A semi-squishy Burning Brand defender would make a good blocker against enemy adds since you prevent the occasional Sleeping Sentry from a 1-attack minion. And Tactics would usually want to Feint big attackers... Or use Beregond. But i feel like Beregond + Burning Brand might be a little much

A card that only worked on "When Revealed" effects on enemies, wouldn't really be that bad anyway, even if it wouldn't be useful for every single quest. There's some nasty When Revealed effects on enemies! Nightmare Ungoliant Spawn, Luitenant of Mordor...

Balance in games is not only misunderstood by many on a design level, but most of the comments in this thread do not even seam to take into account that this is a co-op game and a thematic one at that.

The spheres shouldn't be (and aren't) balanced and they hopefully never will be. As a co-op game we are forced to make sphere decisions based on that spheres specialities. This is how it should be. If you started putting cancels in tactics or card draw in or w/e it would massively alter the entire way the game plays.

Basically I read parts of this threads and what people are in fact saying is.. "I like X Sphere, I wish it did more so I didn't have to splash" which imo it kinda ridicules in a game that is totally focused on co-op.

Great post

Balance in games is not only misunderstood by many on a design level, but most of the comments in this thread do not even seam to take into account that this is a co-op game and a thematic one at that.

The spheres shouldn't be (and aren't) balanced and they hopefully never will be. As a co-op game we are forced to make sphere decisions based on that spheres specialities. This is how it should be. If you started putting cancels in tactics or card draw in or w/e it would massively alter the entire way the game plays.

Basically I read parts of this threads and what people are in fact saying is.. "I like X Sphere, I wish it did more so I didn't have to splash" which imo it kinda ridicules in a game that is totally focused on co-op.

What you don't seem to understand is that things are skewed too much in Spirit's favor. You could have a 4 player game with all mono-Spirit decks and it would likely do alright. If you play 4-player, you are practically required to have at least on player playing heavy Spirit, otherwise you wont stand a chance because you wont have the cancellation and location control you need. This is not healthy. If you still want to let Spirit specialize in those things, then give a sphere or two a weaker/more restricted means of dealing with some of these effects.

This has nothing to do with my favorite sphere. This has everything to do with more balance between spheres. I don't think that cancellation really needs to be a specialty of Spirit since there is nothing about "spirit" that says "cancellation" to me. If anything, Lore should specialize in cancellation.

I want to second Joezim007 in this and also, danpoage probably would. The latest episode of the Grey Company Podcast, which btw has an added bonus in the form of designer Matt Newman, Dan adresses this problem and they talk some time about multiplayer games too. He talked about his gaming group and in which he could predict by forehand if they were going to lose, just by seeing that there was nobody running Spirit or even only one person. They would get locationlocked or some treacheries slaughtered them off because there were too few A Test of Wills. Matt Newman said on the account of multiplayer games, that they are of course harder, but the players as a group do have more copies of A Test of Will between them. In that he did imply that it's almost impossible to win a 3 or 4 player game without 1 or 2 Spirit players, because they also design quests that way.

Spirit has a monopoly which in my opinion should not be the case. Specializations are not bad imo, but monopolies are. Certainly, a sphere should excel in certain things, but not be the only sphere that can do stuff. Lore doesn't have the monopoly on carddraw either, but it does it very well. Cancellation should be the same.

They just need to make sure any non spirit cancellation is either restrictive enough or costed heavily enough to not encroach on spirit's niche.

To add more, there are a number of ways to do that. Obviously just making it cost a bunch of resources works. We have seen some supposition that an upcoming Lore card with obscured text and whose name escapes me may cancel things, as long as a copy exists in the Victory pile. This is neat, as not only does it make it worse then Spirit's options, it also plays in to the theme of Lore both manipulating the deck and victory display.

For tactics you could do some interesting things. A condition that built up tokens as you either successfully defended/attacked, or perhaps some cancellation that required you to search the deck for enemies with a certain hp value and engage them. Thematically representing tactics rushing in to the horde to stop a dangerous plot before it could hatch. Another possible one is obviously a Valour one, with additional restrictions, or one that can only be played while engaged with a certain number of enemies.

The only thing I want to avoid is neutral cancellation. If it ever exists, it'd better be mindbogglingly restrictive, as neutral cards are easier to include anywhere, pay for, and thus have a lot of inherent power.

It's all definitely a tough balance to keep the spheres from bleeding and each feeling unique but I definitely agree that each sphere should be able to do almost everything as long as it fits into that sphere (Tactics should do things via killing enemies or other martial actions). The main struggle with this game as I see it is that Spirit is the most important sphere with Tactics following close behind because being able to quest, cancel terrible treacheries and handle enemies is the core of surviving quests. Card draw, resource acceleration, readying and things from Lore and Leadership are all optional and can be very important but aren't as crucial as questing, combat and especially location control in 3-4 player.

So as it is, you actually do need Spirit for most quests where as you don't need Leadership or Lore and sometimes even Tactics. So if the other three spheres become as flexible and able to do everything as Spirit would that be good or bad? I think it would be good as long as it fits the sphere as we keep emphasizing.

Something that would be cool for Spirit Noldor is an attachment that allows you to lower threat whenever you kill an enemy.

Maybe something like:

2 cost (Spirit)

Unique

Attachment

Attach to a Noldor Hero. Whenever attached hero participates in an attack that destroys an enemy you may lower your threat by 1.

It's all definitely a tough balance to keep the spheres from bleeding and each feeling unique but I definitely agree that each sphere should be able to do almost everything as long as it fits into that sphere (Tactics should do things via killing enemies or other martial actions). The main struggle with this game as I see it is that Spirit is the most important sphere with Tactics following close behind because being able to quest, cancel terrible treacheries and handle enemies is the core of surviving quests. Card draw, resource acceleration, readying and things from Lore and Leadership are all optional and can be very important but aren't as crucial as questing, combat and especially location control in 3-4 player.

So as it is, you actually do need Spirit for most quests where as you don't need Leadership or Lore and sometimes even Tactics. So if the other three spheres become as flexible and able to do everything as Spirit would that be good or bad? I think it would be good as long as it fits the sphere as we keep emphasizing.

I don't even feel like Tactics is all that necessary anymore. Leadership has a lot of strong heroes and the ability to amass an army of allies, which can be as good or better than Tactics at combat.

And Spirit can now attack for 6 with two heroes, the event to quest kill a non-unique and old Elboreth Gilthoniel to throw an enemy on the bottom of the deck.

And yes Leadership is becoming able to deal with almost everything by amassing an army which seems suiting and cool.

So is it wrong for Tactics and Lore to be able to do everything also? I think this will be inevitable as the game grows. As long as the spheres still feel and play differently and have at least on strong weakness, Spirit not being able to handle bosses or high enemy quests, that should be good.

Something that would be cool for Spirit Noldor is an attachment that allows you to lower threat whenever you kill an enemy.

Maybe something like:

2 cost (Spirit)

Unique

Attachment

Attach to a Noldor Hero. Whenever attached hero participates in an attack that destroys an enemy you may lower your threat by 1.

Something that would be cool for Spirit Noldor is an attachment that allows you to lower threat whenever you kill an enemy.

Maybe something like:

2 cost (Spirit)

Unique

Attachment

Attach to a Noldor Hero. Whenever attached hero participates in an attack that destroys an enemy you may lower your threat by 1.

I think this is something Tactics should have, a way to lower threat by killing enemies which they are meant to do. This does not fit Spirit in my mind since they are not usually killing things.

I always thought Dwalin should have been a tactics hero.