I've just started up a new game and seriously regretting allowing a commissar. He scarred one of the characters (she has an identical twin and he didn't like the idea of them trading places, so he cut her face so he can tell the difference) and just organised a knife fight between one of the weapon specialists and the stormtrooper.

We haven't even started the campaign yet.

It's on RPOL so I come back to the game overnight and there's a new development, can't wait till he kills someone.

I had the platoon commander try to remind him he's there for morale and discipline only, that he can only order the squad around in extreme circumstances, but he shrugged that off as he's a commissar, called the platoon commander green (no such thing as a green Cadian though), then told the Sergeant to punish the two brawling troopers (they hadn't actually started yet) that he had forced into fighting.

Anyone have ideas for getting him in line? We're going to fight orks, so opportunities to take him out will be abounds (that Mega Armored Nob's coming right for him!), but that seems like lazy thinking to me.

You could let a senior commissar punish him in some way, for damaging troop-morale. And then maybe let him expirience that in the heat of combat, he needs the squad to stay alive more than they need him.

Have the platoon commander call the commissariat or the local inquisition branch. Have any and all troopers and officers present pulled from combat and incarcerated immediately. Have them listen to the witnesses' reports. If the players don't cover for the commissar (and why WOULD they?), have him demoted to a grunt or outright shot for gross incompetence and willful destruction of the emperor's property, namely the scarred guardsman and the two he ordered to fight. Have the two who fought on command promoted.

If they do cover for him, you'll have plenty of NPCs who won't. I guess it's execution time for everyone, then, for lying to the commissariat and inquisition.

This is pretty much "rocks fall", but unless it's extremely urgent, people under investigation aren't allowed anywhere near the front or a weapon, in most militaries.

My dade told me a story about when he did his millitary service. Thiere was this officer who outrite abused his power all the time. During one traning mission they were inside thiere apc with this officer and he gave theam a order to go a direction, but the apc commander said no way and that he was incharge of this apc and he was rigth. But then the officer ( i think he was a lieutenant) started to pull rank and more or less forced theam to do his will and that led to them ending up in a ditch and need to get pulled out. When the major asked what the hell happend the lieutenant blamed it all on the apc commander and his crew.

so a coupel of weeks later when they were on a new traning mission they drove out in the middel of nowere and beat the **** out of him and the said that he fell in the apc

case and point. Yea you migth have the authority to do that but that wont procted you when a whole platoon turns on you. And if everyone says he fell on a knife 26 times....well thats just what happens in war

Have the platoon commander call the commissariat or the local inquisition branch. Have any and all troopers and officers present pulled from combat and incarcerated immediately. Have them listen to the witnesses' reports. If the players don't cover for the commissar (and why WOULD they?), have him demoted to a grunt or outright shot for gross incompetence and willful destruction of the emperor's property, namely the scarred guardsman and the two he ordered to fight. Have the two who fought on command promoted.

If they do cover for him, you'll have plenty of NPCs who won't. I guess it's execution time for everyone, then, for lying to the commissariat and inquisition.

tbh, at that point, I think just having that Commissar catch a bullet in the head by GM fiat - not even rolling a dice for it - and then announcing the player should make a new character would feel LESS intrusive, as far as setting immersion and atmosphere are concerned...

so a coupel of weeks later when they were on a new traning mission they drove out in the middel of nowere and beat the **** out of him and the said that he fell in the apc

Reminds me of those stories about the high ratio of officers falling victim to grenade shrapnel in Vietnam.

Interestingly, the GW Codex Catachans even has a section about how unpopular Commissars who fail to develop a working relationship with the regiment have a habit of going KIA during a battle ...

To the OP:

Personally, I would always try to work things out whilst maintaining the Grim Darkness™ of the setting. The tricky thing in cases such as these is that Commissars really can and sometimes even have to be arseholes; that's their role and reputation in the setting - a Commissar who is not as feared as he or she is respected, is actually just a Sergeant in a fancy coat, and at that point the player should ask themselves why they picked this class. A Commissar player has a responsibility to add to the atmosphere of the game. The challenge lies in doing so without pissing all the players off, and arguably this is where this particular PC-Commissar has failed.

So what I'd do would be to follow the general direction already indicated by SoIP - and DeathByGrotz, although to a less "drastic" degree. Following GW studio fluff, most regiments have more than one Commissar, and judging from the things you've told here, it may not be too far-fetched to consider that rumours of these incidents have reached the Commissar-General. On one hand, the leadership should not be overly concerned with the fate of a few rank-and-file Guardsmen. However, a Commissar failing to uphold the trust vested in them is a grave matter indeed, and worthy of investigation.

Optional part: A new Comrade is assigned to the squad with papers identifying him or her as a new conscript. In truth, this is a Cadet Commissar working directly in the employ of the Commissar-General, who has opted for the unusual measure of a covert investigation to deal with the just-as-unusual reports of a Commissar stepping so far out of line that they might be considered unfit for duty.

This new Comrade will follow orders as usual, but the PCs might have a chance to see him or her taking notes in secrecy. If you want to pull this off as a sort of mini-narrative, you could ramp up the suspicion until the Commissar himself confronts the "conscript", at which point they would admit their true purpose and attempt to arrange for a return to HQ to convey their findings. Anything the Commissar did during the time this covert operative was attached to the unit would obviously be considered evidence in the subsequent hearing.

Mandatory Part: At the next suitable opportunity, the entire platoon is detained and the soldiers are interrogated individually. The other PCs have a chance to speak out against the Commissar now, but as DeathByGrotz suggested, you can also rely on the Comrades anyways. Following the hearing, the Commissar simply disappears. No public sentencing, no public execution or other form of penalty. He is led away never to be seen again and the platoon returned to the field without anything else happening. The Commissariat has a reputation to maintain, and it will not suffer the shame of admitting that one of its own has done wrong. The matter "will be dealt with" internally, and the Guardsmen have no business in it. The Commissar's player can now roll up a normal character and is barred from playing a similar role again. Fin.

I'd keep the Inquisition out of this, though - they've got way more important things to do.

Grim Darkness™

Gold.

Cheers, everyone, good thoughts.

It sounds like he's playing the comisar to be a ****, let the players kill him, he's ruining the game for them.

I must admit, I've had the pleasure of my Sergeant Orion serving alongside Commissar Dorn, who has proven to be my single favourite incarnation of a Commissar as yet. The chap had presence and yet rarely had to say a word. He'd usually just declare that Dorn was giving someone a disapproving glare and that was enough to get results. Largely, he stood back and maintained efficiency within the squad and assisted where requested. Tactical decisionmaking was my province as Sergeant, and that was made very clear from go.

Dorn would maintain order and discipline in the ranks, and hang back, only getting directly involved to intercept Orks from closing to melee with the squad, or assisting with his skills - usually Awareness, Scrutiny etc - on the Sergeant's direct request.

Maybe I should see if I can get a few words from Dorn's player, cause the guy's amazing.

Also, maybe get to the Commie's player, and find out if this is how he intends to continue, knowing that it's irksome to his friends. Ask him if that is how HE feels Commissars are portrayed, because he might just be wrong, but not entirely in the know. Commissars can be a lot like Paladins, in other games; you might enjoy the perks of their presence, but it CAN take a special sort of player to do it right, and depending on take, any party with thieves, warlocks, and some derivations of sorcerers, is in for a shitstorm, because a Paladin is rules-obligated to stifle what some players find "fun with their character", and if they don't, they lose THEIR powers. This Commie seems to be a bit different, where he's NOT maintaining morale, and upholding the Emperor's ideals, but he'll try to hide behind the same pally-shield of "my character can/has to", so make sure they understand A. you don't enjoy him abusing other characters, and B. he's sort of doing it wrong. Otherwise, I'm a firm supporter of "we're out in the field, and he "got shot". Still, I'd make sure he (the player) is doing this intentionally, thinks he will continue to, and thinks it's within his purview, before doing stuff in game that might break his character, or worse. At that point, getting shot was faster, and he'd still need to make another toon, except he might feel more bitter, as a player, if you want to keep him around.

Never underestimate the power of "group intervention".

You let me play the commissar, I do it well ^-^...

The orks should just go after the Black and Red thing ( the red lining of the commissars great coat as ive always seen it ) black is scary and red makes it go faster, every one knows that? so it's the bigger threat.

Orks making a beeline for the commissar makes a fair amount of sense, in that the commissar clearly goes faster from all the red and you don't want the fast ones left over once the humies start running away. Honestly, though, I don't think any kind of in-game solution is appropriate. Sit the player down and explain to them that they are 1) acting counter-productively to their actual purpose by ordering troops to violate protocol and 2) this behavior is making the game less fun for the players, so from both an in and out of character perspective they are doing the opposite of what they should be.

The Commissar has a nice hat. Do Orks need any more reason? But yeah, the player is the issue, not the class. Sort the player out.

I have come to the conclusion that Commissar is a troublesome class. I wouldn't ban it in a game but it requires more from the player than the other classes do.

Simply the fact that the commissar has so much power if used like in the fluff AND the commissar is also weighed down with many responsibilities. The player needs to understand both sides of this. Also, it is not the only class with these problems.

If a penal trooper or sarge wants to do some black market deals to get better gear for himself/squad or something the GM can handle this and it can suit the character. It may (should) cause problems if he isn't careful but this can be a plot hook for the GM. If a commissar does something like that and gets caught the only options are immediate *blam* from the rest of the commissariat or a one way trip to a penal legion where he is expected to get him self killed alongside the penal troopers. And that is an important bit, the commissars are supposed to be fanatical. They don't just stand in the back and send other to death like NKVD. They have been brainwashed since childhood to truly believe in what they preach and those who fail to become fearless fanatics are often executed in the Schola Progenum or sent to penal legions. (Note that according to the latest fluff, the "final exam" for a commissar may be the order to execute their best friend. Simply to prove that they can be as cruel and harsh as needed in battle.)

Similarly to commissars, priests and enginseers need to be played in a special way. The Rogue trader may pick up "the weird" tech-priest who is borderline heretek but the average enginseer should be played as someone who nearly has a stroke if they notice the troopers "improving" their gear.

Similarly to commissars, priests and enginseers need to be played in a special way. The Rogue trader may pick up "the weird" tech-priest who is borderline heretek but the average enginseer should be played as someone who nearly has a stroke if they notice the troopers "improving" their gear.

And fuss and worry more about the vehicle and equipment.

Do try to bring this one back in one piece 007.

Or more seriously:

Enginseer: "So you brought back the man, but not the plasma gun?

Sergeant: We leave no man behind! Ooorah!

Enginseer: Trooper Nolt existed only 21 years. PFSTC/014545/m39 - "Omnissiah's Wrath" has existed for two and a half centuries in wich it has slain countless foes of mars and Terra. With luck Trooper Nolt would have expired within 60 years anyway. Now an irreplaceable centuries old weapon is lost because of your poor judgement, captain. The administratum will hear of this.

Junior Commissar - Junior Commissars are subordinate to full Commissars, performing the role as a junior aide in the oversight of the regiment or voidship assigned to a full Commissar. They primarily perform as adjutants and in an investigatory role as well as carrying out the usual Commissarial duties. Junior Commissars often undertake their Commissarial role with smaller formations such as an individual squad, platoon or company.

For PC commissars this is the rank I have them play at to handle the type of play your player is pulling.

As Lynata said, certains archetypes in 40k would require good knowledge of the setting/character to make it work as intended....but at the same time, the information as it is going down the pipe is also to blame.

I mean, when we think of a Commissar, what is the first image that pops up in 99% of our heads?

Answer: "Coward!" #BLAM#

Personally,I don't think we can't really put all the blame on the player, he's playing it as a hardcore not-giving-a-crap badass with a fancy hat who's afraid of nothing because the media that we get of a Commissar is that he's a hardcore not-giving-a-crap badass who is afraid of nothing and who shoots cowards and others to motivate the Guardsmen while wearing a fancy hat. The only way he will bend is if the Emperor commands it, else he is a stoïc, immovable wall that never changes or acts differently.

Like a Marine would.

Like a Sister would.

Of course, reading about it, you can see that Commissars are there for morale and bureaucratic reasons, not to lead or order troops around. He is an advisor at best, a nuisance at worst....but again got to dig; looking on the surface, you'll get Commissar Kill-a-lot.

Personally, I would play it more subtle; careful words and glares can be as useful as a bolt when trying to keep the squad in check..

"Popular presentation" of certain archetypes certainly carries a bit of blame, too. Again, not applying only to Commissars. Many types of characters are surprisingly deep once you look beyond the surface image that gets bandied about on 40k forums and 4chan.

That being said, I still think it's mostly the player, as it is their responsibility to read up on their class, and their interpretation of a character type that drove them to it in the first place. Meaning: if there were no Commissars, this type of player would pull their shenanigans with another class, because they think it's funny.

At the same time, I wouldn't want to trade the threatening image of a Commissar for a uniformed diplomat. Not that careful words and glares would necessarily violate my interpretation of them, but I consider a good amount of dread to be part of their job description. Inspiring fear, respect, and sometimes even adoration - all united under one large hat.

It's all about walking a fine line -- and simply put, not everyone is capable of exercising the necessary amount of restraint or caution when it comes to keeping their own character in check, in a way that suits both their image as well as the entire group's fun. But as mentioned before, to others, this is part of the (welcome) challenge.

A good idea of what I meant be a "talkative" Commissar, would be the one found in the "Fire &Honour" comic book- sorry, I meant graphic novel , Commissar Florian.

Not a single #BLAM# was given that day, but lots of socializing and not giving a crap about being surrounded by Crisis suits.

Aww yeah, and the Flag didn't touch the ground, suck it Xenos!

It's the fun part of taking the grimdark fiction, and then trying to port it to an RPG game filled with people who want to have fun; is he playing a Commissar the way some of us might? Possibly, but when it starts to step on the toes of other players, who also want to have fun, sometimes in ways that go blatantly against the system of the game they are playing, he becomes a nuisance. Again, we can return to my tired Paladin reference. Wizards can be old, wise, grandfatherly-like mages, out to advise, help, and bolster your team, or they can be cold, diabolical practitioners, out for power, wanting to flex their will over everyone around them. Fighters can be the guy who wants to protect the weak, or the representation we often get of a knight, who is brave, chivalrous, and protects the weak, while others might be more "realistic" knights, paid thugs who **** and pillage when they are bored, or if there's no war to pay them. Then they go and burn down houses, attack the weak for sport, and whatever else. Clerics? Do you worship Order? Healing? Death? Thievery? I can keep going, but eventually, we get back to Pallie, and he falls off here, because while there are several ways to be a paladin, there's also really only one, and he or she must even enforce that way upon his party. The classic "thief and a paladin" would have the paladin incapable, in many cases, of allowing the thief to steal something, even an important something, even from a bad person. When you have a paladin, it can really limit how EVERYONE plays, and if it doesn't, they can lose their powers, and might as well have picked something else.

The point: while I won't say the Commissar is a class-type that isn't fit for players to have, it's something that can seem like it. Commissars behave in certain ways, and those ways can influence how everyone else plays, especially if he or she shoots another player. If he doesn't, you might wonder why he didn't. Would a "typical" Commissar, as the fluff frequently represents them, have done so? Was the only reason not to have because the other party was a fellow player? It can get messy, and may need some sit down among the players. As soon as I say "I want to play a Paladin", anyone who wanted to play a Rogue, an Assassin, a Warlock, or possibly several other things is on notice that they might not have so much fun this game, if they do, and the Commissar goes with a similar amount of preparation, though he does fit better alongside many of the other available character types.

It's the fun part of taking the grimdark fiction, and then trying to port it to an RPG game filled with people who want to have fun; is he playing a Commissar the way some of us might? Possibly, but when it starts to step on the toes of other players, who also want to have fun, sometimes in ways that go blatantly against the system of the game they are playing, he becomes a nuisance. Again, we can return to my tired Paladin reference. Wizards can be old, wise, grandfatherly-like mages, out to advise, help, and bolster your team, or they can be cold, diabolical practitioners, out for power, wanting to flex their will over everyone around them. Fighters can be the guy who wants to protect the weak, or the representation we often get of a knight, who is brave, chivalrous, and protects the weak, while others might be more "realistic" knights, paid thugs who **** and pillage when they are bored, or if there's no war to pay them. Then they go and burn down houses, attack the weak for sport, and whatever else. Clerics? Do you worship Order? Healing? Death? Thievery? I can keep going, but eventually, we get back to Pallie, and he falls off here, because while there are several ways to be a paladin, there's also really only one, and he or she must even enforce that way upon his party. The classic "thief and a paladin" would have the paladin incapable, in many cases, of allowing the thief to steal something, even an important something, even from a bad person. When you have a paladin, it can really limit how EVERYONE plays, and if it doesn't, they can lose their powers, and might as well have picked something else.

The bold part got me going 'wha?' and the bold, italic and underlined part got me falling from my chair.

First, the paladin will block the thief's attempt at theft at every opportunity.

Why, how?

Theft is not always overt, and I doubt the Paladin have the so-called Thief (really, how can he know automatically that that other guy in the party is a thief? Is it because he pick locks and disable traps?) under constant scrutiny 24/7. Pickpocketing is not something you want to advertise. There is also the possibility of the party splitting up, allowing the 'thief' to let go his basic criminal instincts without the Paladin in his way. And how did 'thief' get hold of that piece of information/item/whatever?

-Buddy owned me a favour.

-I know someone on the inside.

-I blow my nest egg to get it

-I found it

-Fell off a turnip wagon

-Anything else the player can imagine.

-And if the thing can be hidden, why bother even talking about it, right?

Also, except if he's a kleptomaniac, a thief don't go stealing all the time

Then the big part, limiting everyone's play. I'm in a party that includes a paladin and a chaotic evil psionic. Paladin keeps an eye on him yeah, but they still fight side by side because of the common goal.

Also, the CE guy doesn't go murdering innocents for fun and burn whole villages because the porridge at the inn wasn't to his liking. I mean, he killed, or well, murdered really, some peasant guy in a battle arena (which was seen as a social faux pas- even more so that his killing blow was the first and only strike to be had this fight...and fate would have it it was a rather impressive critical.) The party wasn't to hot on that, but we understood the situation and it was judged that while too much for the challenge, it was in a battle situation so fair game. Psionic won the money purse that night as the player wanted to. He also freed an evil lizardmen from the battle pits as well, unknown to the party, because hey, even without the paladin none of us would want a lizardmen running free near human settlements.

To make my point, evil characters usually have the party at their backs because they're evil by actions and concept, no matter how they explain it. The Paladin is simply the guy that talks right there and then when everyone else is looking at each other, unsure about how to react to that old guy in robes pulling skeletons from the ground to 'help us free the farmer's pigs from the goblins' and if he's that trustworthy and if the group really need a wizard after all?

And I see it more like a challenge really. Even a clever thief might end up using the (unknowingly) paladin as distraction while he does his thing.

I'm with that guy, and I usually play the Paladin.

I'm with that guy, and I usually play the Paladin.

Which guy? Venkelos, I suppose?

Nope. I was agreeing with you.

Though I would point out that a Paladin's code forbids them from knowingly working alongside Evil characters. Choosing the lesser evil is still evil.

Pretty much, though given the psionic seems to be largely toeing the line, it could be seen as an attempt to redeem an evildoer. If the pallie is a positive influence on the guy, and he's not really doing anything "evil", may be time to think about a shift to neutral. But that's just me