Giving a ship more shots of ordinance doesn't necessarily resolve it's effectiveness. The shot still lacks accuracy for the price being paid. It also has the opposite effect of competing with cannon upgrades. Who would pay 7 points for a 4 attack shot, when you can pay 4 for one that lasts multiple turns?

Unless said shot ignored shields.

But even the tap option begins to enter "too complex" territory in my opinion. Now players have to track what was fired when. The one shot brings the appropriate risk of missing. In the evade option, the player shooting still needs to take care to have a focus and target lock to maximize the "one shot" opportunity. So either he bides his time, risking getting no shot, or he builds a list to synergize with this kind of ordnance. Either way there are risks and the meta is opened beyond its current scope.

And, technically, if a bomber opts for the torpedoe option we discussed, it has the same opportunity to one shot a Wedge.

Tappung and untapping one card is too complicated?

And i would **** well hope this opens up the meta like it shoild be, because suddenly weakly armed ships with a missile or torp slot would be able to do some damage every 2nd turn. A-Wings without Refit would be totally viable, the Scyk would be able to actually really choose what he takes. Dantels would become very strong (if you pay 2 Torps). X-Wings would need less of a buff to be competitive, And so on and so on... Just think about Jonus and bombers.

This is how ordnance should be. Not the joke it is right now!

I also agree that there are always oneshots happening, but nothing in the way of rolling 4 hits or 6 with Cluster missiles, and the enemy can just watch and take his ship off the board. That would totally break the game as any buff to get more green dice would be idiotic. And then we just play High Hp low agility ships and throw our interceptors and E-Wings out the window??

This is totally denying a basic game mechanic. That will not happen and it would not be a fix but just completely destroy the game. Even making ordnance tappable would have so much less impact on the game then this!

Change to ordinance: (Missles and Torps)

My group has tried the following:

Create and Ordinance Phase, which is before Primary weapons. All ordinance fires first before primary weapons in Descending order. So Ships with Ordinance and PS 1 can shoot before ships with PS9 using primary weapons.

I also like the suggestion above about the ordinance computer for 0 pt. Where a ship with ordinance equipped gets a free target lock action during the actions step.

Or like I've posted elsewhere in this forum:

Extended Magazines

Modification, Tie Bomber only

2 points

"When attacking with a secondary weapon that instructs you to discard it to perform the attack, do not discard it unless the attack does not hit."

Like Munitions Failsafe, just the other way around.

Yep, multiple slots would just = multiple types of ordnance.

As an extreme example you could say - Protons (adjusted to range 3 only) and Advanced Protons (range 1 only) on a TIE Bomber. Bloody dangerous, but bloody expensive.

I've posted this on a few other sites, but I've decided the best way to fix ordnance is to make them feel more like movie missiles. In every movie dogfight ever, when the hero dodges a missile it always loops back and he has to deal with it again. This tweak fixes the "one shot" problem better than the munitions failsafe card, and can add a new layer of strategy.

If folks are interested I can post the full rules writeup, but basically a "do not hit" result on a missile or torp attack gives the target a warhead token, which is spent in the next activation phase to make another torp or missile attack. There's more to it than that, but that's it in a nutshell.

It is a rule change, so it needs an explanation rule card like the Ion token card, and some minor tweaks to a few pilots and upgrades. But I haven't run into anything really over the top broken or weird yet.

And it just feels more right. I'm playtesting the little tweaks now. If folks want details I'll make a new topic.

I think a lot of good ideas have been proposed. Let me weigh in and give you what my house rules are going to be:

First, it should be one shot for a number of reasons. There have been people discussing "tapping" cards or somehow reusing them. In short this screws up a lot of the game. We have cannons for multiple shots, for one thing. This is the most compelling argument but there are others - for example it doesn't fix the problem of accuracy vs. damage. You still have to do a lot of things (pay the cost, acquire target lock, line up the shot) to fire a torp/missile. Finally, one shot makes sense for the pacing of this game. Someone posted earlier in the thread (too lazy to quote) about how this is a snapshot of an intense dogfight. Ships use lasers and then go in for the kill. Even though a ship has X number of missiles fluff-wise, in the snapshot of this one dogfight it's a one-use thing.

The problem with this one-use mechanic (which otherwise makes sense) is the cost. It is too expensive and not very useful. For a while I toyed with the idea of just lowering the cost of ordinance for house rules. This has two problems: one, you would have to reprint or errata a ton of cards. Two: ordinance still wouldn't seem all that useful, due to unreliable damage and tedious action required to get a shot off. I don't like the idea of cheap or multiple-use missiles being fired over and over again and unreliably doing 1 or 2 damage. That does not fit how Star Wars movies, games, or actual dogfights play out.

A missile or torpedo, if it hits, is supposed to be a devastating attack. If it were, the cost would be justified, anything more than one-use would be too powerful (which legitimizes ships that CAN carry extra ordinance). The best way to make this effective WITHOUT changing cost (and therefore without having errata or reprints) was proposed earlier in the thread. It is this: For missiles, cancel evade results if it hits. For torps, ignore shields if it hits.

For missiles: After hit/miss is determined, you would cancel all evade results (not tokens) and apply that much damage. Here's an example: A concussion missile is fired at a TIE Defender and there are 3 hits to 2 evades. Instead of this missile "hitting slightly" and doing 1 damage, the missile HITS, and the 3 damage are suffered. The missile is still discarded.

For torpedoes: After hit/miss is determined, the damage is applied as usual, except shields are ignored. For example: A proton torpedo is fired at a TIE Advanced and there are 3 hits compared to 1 evade. The 2 damage is assessed regularly except it bypasses the shields, and the TIE Advanced loses 2 hull.

I think this is the solution. The only thing I worry about is with torpedo mechanic as I have it the accuracy/damage is still in the same component, which I'd like to avoid. I am considering having torpedoes cancel evade results and bypass shields if they hit, but this might be overpowered. Fluff-wise it makes sense - in the movies/games if a TIE advanced gets hit by a proton torpedo it should be destroyed, but in my above example it survived even with my house rules.

Any ideas on how to tweak the shield-bypass rules? Proton torpedoes are supposed to be incredibly powerful so cancelling evades and bypassing shields sort of makes sense, but it could be OP.

Finally, another reason this fix works is all FFG has to do is release a new rule card. The cards themselves don't change, there's just a small addition to the basic rules.

TL:DR - One-shot is the best for the mechanics of this game. Errata and reprints should be avoided. The most elegant solution that fits fluff-wise has been mentioned, and is this: missiles (if they hit) should cancel evade results, torps (if they hit) should ignore shields (and possibly also cancel evade results).

Finally, another reason this fix works is all FFG has to do is release a new rule card. The cards themselves don't change, there's just a small addition to the basic rules.

Won't work, because unless FFG can somehow get that card to everyone who's bought a core set, then they won't do it.

That's just now how FFG works, they've made this clear in various interviews. That's why they won't just reduce the cost of a A-Wing by 2 points, or give the HWK-290 a extra attack die. Because they want everyone to have the same basic experience.

Changes to how torpedoes/missiles work is not going to happen, because you then have everyone who doesn't have those new cards playing it differently then the people who do.

They could release a new missile or torpedo that behaves differently, or even a whole new weapon system, but they are not going to make a fundamental change to how the existing stuff works.

Finally, another reason this fix works is all FFG has to do is release a new rule card. The cards themselves don't change, there's just a small addition to the basic rules.

Won't work, because unless FFG can somehow get that card to everyone who's bought a core set, then they won't do it.

That's just now how FFG works, they've made this clear in various interviews. That's why they won't just reduce the cost of a A-Wing by 2 points, or give the HWK-290 a extra attack die. Because they want everyone to have the same basic experience.

Changes to how torpedoes/missiles work is not going to happen, because you then have everyone who doesn't have those new cards playing it differently then the people who do.

They could release a new missile or torpedo that behaves differently, or even a whole new weapon system, but they are not going to make a fundamental change to how the existing stuff works.

But they have released cards that change the way certain ships play. If you just have a core set and an A-wing, you fly the a-wing differently than if you have rebel aces.

The alternative is to do nothing, and that is unlikely. Munitions is a huge part of the game design. They released munitions failsafe as an attempt to help munitions, and it didn't really help much. They are releasing titles for the scyk that can give it munitions. When other parts of the game are uncompetitive, they have done an admirable job of bringing them up to par. I have to think they are working on something for munitions.

You are completely correct that they are not going to reprint or change existing cards. So, this has to be done with a rules change or an upgrade card that can be put on all ships that can carry ordinance. To me, and apparently many others, changing the rules to change how damage is done from ordinance could be an easy fix.

Finally, another reason this fix works is all FFG has to do is release a new rule card. The cards themselves don't change, there's just a small addition to the basic rules.

Won't work, because unless FFG can somehow get that card to everyone who's bought a core set, then they won't do it.

That's just now how FFG works, they've made this clear in various interviews. That's why they won't just reduce the cost of a A-Wing by 2 points, or give the HWK-290 a extra attack die. Because they want everyone to have the same basic experience.

Changes to how torpedoes/missiles work is not going to happen, because you then have everyone who doesn't have those new cards playing it differently then the people who do.

They could release a new missile or torpedo that behaves differently, or even a whole new weapon system, but they are not going to make a fundamental change to how the existing stuff works.

What about FAQ and errata? Would a similar fix work? Theoretically there are lots of people who are doing certain things wrong because they haven't read the FAQ's and such. But all tournament players would know about it.

The best thing to do is make missiles and torps more accurate when fired outside the opponent's arc. This will not make the alpha strike stronger and requires no reprinting of cards. Just add one die if fired outside an opponent's attack arc and +2 red rice if fired at the rear. Shoot someone's rear and you're throwing 6-7 dice. Definitely worth it.

Fixed damage weapons like ion torpedoes have already been priced properly.

If you just have a core set and an A-wing, you fly the a-wing differently than if you have rebel aces.

It's not the same thing. You're talking about having upgrades that change things because you applied the upgrades. Not at all the same thing as retroactively changing the way a Homing missile works.

The alternative is to do nothing, and that is unlikely.

No the alternative is to release either new missiles like the Procket, or new upgrades like the Mutations Failsafe.

To me, and apparently many others, changing the rules to change how damage is done from ordinance could be an easy fix.

Sure, and it's a fix that I'd like to see happen, but given FFG's stance it isn't one they are going to take, because it goes against the core design philosophy they have. Namely that everyone who has a A-Wing expansion can expect every card in that expansion to work the same way as it does for everyone else.

What about FAQ and errata? Would a similar fix work?

Unlikely, at least not on the scale you're talking about here. Errata is for fixing the wording on a card, because it doesn't work like it should, not to improve it somehow.

FAQ's are not used to make fundamental changes to how the rules work, they're used to give us RAI when the RAW aren't clear enough or match up with the intention.

They'll make small tweaks, like for large ships using a barrel roll, but even then. The only large ship with a native barrel roll, has those rules included in the box, so anyone who owns it knows about it.

The biggest change they've made was declaring tokens to be a result in regards to the autoblasters, and that is no where near the same level of change as having torpedos ignore shields or missiles evade results.

Again I'm not against these changes I'm just relaying things Frank and Alex have said in various interviews about how they do things. If you want to check them out they were the TC interview from GenCon and Worlds.

I am considering having torpedoes cancel evade results and bypass shields if they hit, but this might be overpowered.

Meant to address but forgot.

This would be so OP'ed, because then a 5 point Advanced Proton Torpedo stands a chance of one shotting a 50+ point YT-2400.

I like some of the ideas in theory, and I would like ordnance to be better, but I think there are major issues with the proposed fixes.

Firstly, the "missiles ignore evade results" idea. Initially it sounded good but as already pointed out, against interceptors it means a TL+F missile will one shot them most of the time. Remember how annoying it was that one time when Soontir Fel got one shot at range 3? Well, now it will be happening consistently. Interceptors will be unplayable.

The "do not discard/tap for a turn" idea is ok, even if it is mechanically a little awkward. Now though, with the Advanced fix I can't see it happening. 4 Tempests with AC and a non-discarding cluster missile would wreck a lot of lists, and really limit what is viable.

I want to see a fix to ordnance so that the viable list space increases. The last thing I would like to see is a major change that makes ordnance usable but decreases the viable lists- they need to become a decent choice, not an automatic choice.

Finally, another reason this fix works is all FFG has to do is release a new rule card. The cards themselves don't change, there's just a small addition to the basic rules.

Won't work, because unless FFG can somehow get that card to everyone who's bought a core set, then they won't do it.That's just now how FFG works, they've made this clear in various interviews. That's why they won't just reduce the cost of a A-Wing by 2 points, or give the HWK-290 a extra attack die. Because they want everyone to have the same basic experience.Changes to how torpedoes/missiles work is not going to happen, because you then have everyone who doesn't have those new cards playing it differently then the people who do.They could release a new missile or torpedo that behaves differently, or even a whole new weapon system, but they are not going to make a fundamental change to how the existing stuff works.

Sadly i think that you are totally right with this. So this won't happen until they rerelease the whole game.

I find it a pity but i can understand it. I buy multiples of every new ship so it would not beva problem to get the card. Just not everyone is that committed to gaming and so they won't buy every ship and thus not have the rules. This would not pose a problem, just when someone that knows of this plays someone that does not, this would be a messup.

What i don't understand is that regarding the proposed tapping mechanic, there are people saying sometimes in the same sentence that the mechanic would be too strong, and then they say it would not fix the cost vs result issue because of Target lock and range requirements. What do you want? You use your torp, tap it, wait a turn, and use it again if you fulfil the requirements. Recycling is the definition of cost-efficiency so i don't get you. Paying 4 points for a single use torp that you may or may not hit is not working, while with tapping you can reuse it even if you don't hit.

We have cannons for that? Cannons are sometimes not even a lot more expensive than ordnance and get taken just because they are NOT discarded after one use. With unlimited use but just every 2nd turn, requiring TL/Focus and their all around stronger effects than cannons, ordnance would sit in a sweet spot currently not filled. Too sad it still will never happen for reasons stated above!

Fluffwise why are we even discussing? Most fighters carry a good number of missiles and torps and could fire enough times for a whole X-Wing battle if we make it pause for a turn while tapped. Snapshot and intense dogfights? Yes okay but if a fighter carries 8 torps it can as well fire 8 snapshots.

And snapshot fights is exactly what you get if you play this nonsense ignoring evades and shields. Half of the ships get unplayable, anything with less that 8 HP and more than 2 green dice is non-viable. Games would be a joust, then 3/4 of the ships are dead and then there are 2 rounds where the last survivors clean up. If that's what you want i just don't understand you. Why the hell would anyone want to mess up X-Wing like that? Then we might as well have a thermonuclear warhead for 80 points. Bomber or Y-Wing take it, it destroys every ship, asteroid and the table itself. Game over. Sorry but this ignoring any defensive rolls and shields is just the poorest proposition i have ever heard on this forum, and that's really saying a lot!

Title: tbd

Type: Modification

Cost: 0

At the start of the combat phase If you have a Missile or Torpedo upgrade equipped, You may acquire a free Target Lock.

Hell, I'll equip a Flechette with the intention of never firing it. This is better than an FCS in every way.

Title: tbd

Type: Modification

Cost: 0

At the start of the combat phase If you have a Missile or Torpedo upgrade equipped, You may acquire a free Target Lock.

Hell, I'll equip a Flechette with the intention of never firing it. This is better than an FCS in every way.

The trigger could be "while attacking with a Missile or Torpedo" or "at the start of combat, spend a Focus, token to acquire a Target Lock"

The gist of it is make low PS pilots with Ordnance firing them easier.

Title: tbd

Type: Modification

Cost: 0

At the start of the combat phase If you have a Missile or Torpedo upgrade equipped, You may acquire a free Target Lock.

Hell, I'll equip a Flechette with the intention of never firing it. This is better than an FCS in every way.

The trigger could be "while attacking with a Missile or Torpedo" or "at the start of combat, spend a Focus, token to acquire a Target Lock"

The gist of it is make low PS pilots with Ordnance firing them easier.

It may just be better to say the ordnance no longer requires a TL to fire although a TL can not modify the attack if this is used. I believe I suggested this earlier.

I like the idea that has been mentioned before (in this thread and other places) and that is used in Attack Wing.

Missile Bay:

Cost: 1

Icon: Missile

When a missile card instructs you to discard the card, place it on this card instead. Spend 1 action to move the missile card back to your ship.

Torpedo Bay would be similar but would work for torpedos. This allows a few ships (Tie Bomber, Y-wing, B-wing) to carry a reloading missile or torpedo. The first torpedo slot holds your ordinance. The second torpedo slot holds the Torpedo Bay card.

First turn, you use TL to launch your ordinance. Second, turn you spend an action to loop around and reload your ordinance Next turn, if you're still alive you can launch again.

This gives a little extra character and purpose to dedicated bomber craft without making them too expensive. It also lets ships that can equip EPT (and Push the Limit) to reload and TL on the same turn. A really nice boost for these ships.

Yes, it's powerful, and bump the price up from 1 to 2 if you need to. Epic play would definitely become more fun. Your bomber craft would start making torpedo runs without breaking the bank. And they would be come high value targets for the other player.

This is also a fine solution.

It's more restrictivev than tapping, requiring an action and represents the fact that B-Wings carry a lot more ordnance than A-Wings for example.

This also would have the advantage that there is no need for a rules card to be distributed.

I feel that this should not cost anything though or not require an action to reload. It should be a buff to ordnance and it alteady is pretty restrictive.

I still like the tapping mechanic better though, and what they could do is just an errata to write this into all the ordnance cards. Players that don't look up the FAQ will not know it, but hey they will not know a lot of other stuff either so they can play by tge older rulings fine. In addition to that in this case i would still bring a rule card out. That way a maximum of players are inforned about the change. That should work...

My favourite suggestion by a long way is ordnance cancelling all evades if it hits.

I'm afraid that's not practical. When the hit is established, all evade results have already been removed from the common area. They are lo longer in play. There are no evade results left to cancel.

I like the idea that has been mentioned before (in this thread and other places) and that is used in Attack Wing.

Missile Bay:

Cost: 1

Icon: Missile

When a missile card instructs you to discard the card, place it on this card instead. Spend 1 action to move the missile card back to your ship.

IMHO the cost of an action is too high.

How about: When discarding a secondary weapon, place it on this card instead. During the end phase, roll one attack die. On a roll of or move one secondary weapon card back to your ship.

That suggestion includes two changes. One is the die roll instead of the action. The other is that it works for all secondary weapons. That way Slave 1 can use it while TIE Bombers fill one of four slots with it and still have three types of ordnance to fire.

I don't like the idea of MIssile/Torpedo ordinance not being discarded. Nobody would ever use primary attacks much anymore. Missiles are a fine part of aerial combat but without the fun of getting somebody in your sights and shooting em down, it feels more bland and sterile.