Following on from the "why the hell would you ever want to choose anything but a Cannon Upgrade slot on a Heave Scyk" thread...

...is it time for the "discard this card" rule to be removed from ordnance?

Considering the points cost, the range restrictions and necessity of obtaining a Target Lock (or Focus) to fire in the first place, would this make ordnance OP?

If so, how about in conjunction with adjusting the range limits to usable at Range 3 only (Proton, Assault, Concussion etc) or Range 1 only (Cluster, Advanced Proton, Proton Rocket etc)

There has to be some way to make ordnance a more viable option...

Let's do some brainstorming, people!

I always felt that discarding munitions for one shot was kinda off. Xwings carry what 9 proton torps? Sure you can say it would make have multiple torps or missile slots pointless but then you could equip one or two and cover your bases for what munition you will need.

But that's just my humble opinion.

Yep, multiple slots would just = multiple types of ordnance.

As an extreme example you could say - Protons (adjusted to range 3 only) and Advanced Protons (range 1 only) on a TIE Bomber. Bloody dangerous, but bloody expensive.

My favourite suggestion by a long way is ordnance cancelling all evades if it hits.

A blanket 1 point decrease for all missiles and torps or a rule faq which allows missile and torp cards to be discarded twice. I think either of those would achieve a balance without going too far in the opposite direction.

Doubleshot ordnance also sounds like it could work: that's effectively halving the cost without needing reprints.

That is an interesting suggestion, TIE. Would certainly offer a big pay off for one shot ordnance. I wonder if it would be too big though.

I still think getting to use the required action in the attack as the way to go. Using the TL for your missiles and/or torpedoes makes them worthwhile without breaking them.

My favourite suggestion by a long way is ordnance cancelling all evades if it hits.

For missiles yes, For torps i'd have ignores shields.

I think we'll see ordnance come into its own next year. For my personal lists it's already fine: 3 Scimitars + Jonus with Cluster and Concussion loadouts has a predominately winning record and the few losses weren't due to not having infinite missiles. Once the Raider drops NO ONE wants to see 4 Tie Advances with Accuracy Corrector dropping a Decimator in a single turn, EVERY turn.

Proton Rockets are already a decent deal at 3 points since the only ships they're really attractive to have 2-attack primaries.

IMO, the best way for FFG to increase the usefulness of ordnance is not to touch the cards themselves, but merely put new basic rules in place for the Torpedo and Missile card types. For Torpedos, which are supposed to be a more devastating weapon, maybe a target hit by one could flip a damage card and immediately apply its effect (including Direct Hit) but without that card counting against the targeted ship's hull value. A target hit by a Missile could suffer a lesser but still serious effect, such as not being able to dial a red maneuver the following turn, or receiving a stress token, etc.

Cinematically, we don't see X-wings dog fighting Ties with torpedoes. They shoot lasers, and torpedoes are saved for the kill shot. Since X-Wing's gameplay depicts those fast and furious dogfights, I think the single-use munition card is right on the money.

Conversely, you could make two separate adjustments:

Missiles: ignore evade results (not tokens)

A dogfighters choice weapon

Torpedoes: ignore shields

Heavy ordnance meant to penetrate ray shielding

You're capturing their thematic use and justifying their point cost, while not over powering the mechanic. It would be a simple faq and the body of ordnance rules would remain the same.

Conversely, you could make two separate adjustments:

Missiles: ignore evade results (not tokens)

Torpedoes: ignore shields

You're capturing their thematic use and justifying their point cost, while not over powering the mechanic.

They also truly become separate upgrades. Torps become anti capital ship nastiness. Missiles become cheap anti fighter.

Of course, then will torps be OP against a CR90 or Raider?

They would be powerful epic tools, but still high risk/reward options. You are paying premium price for the chance of a good attack roll. The reinforcing action becomes even more important for huge ships too.

Personally I think those fixes are going too far, in that A-Wings and Interceptors already have their Achilles heel in turrets and having a single shot take out a B-Wing on the alpha strike doesn't make the game more fun for either player. However, I do agree on the intent: Let an errata to the basic rules change how munitions are played, and leave the cards themselves alone.

Wes would become really important for some rebel lists.

Maybe we will get a free title for bombers

Modification

[insert name]

Torpedo and missles equipped can have range increase or decrease by 1

Do not discard equip missles or torpedo after use. Action reload missle or torpedo

Something like that?

Though the first part kind of makes Rhymer useless but seriously, how often do we see him anyway

Unless you could make the ability stack?

Or

Title

Rookie ace

Replace target lock to focus in header of missles and torpedoes if point score is 4 or less

Do not need to spend focus to fire missles or torpedoes

Title

[insert name]

Reduce the cost of missles and torpedoes by 2 points.

If ps 4 or less Do not spend target lock or focus to use.

The reason I use ps4 or less is I'm keeping gamma bombers in mind, and this can also be beneficial to other pilots, such as awings ywing, and etc.

Though in some cases maybe be bombers only. Since that is their job they should be a lot more efficient using ordnance over other ships.

Modification bomber only

Light load

2pts

If you have no missles,bombs, or torpedoes equip increase your agility by 1.

May become op? But something like this would make a swarm of bombers awesome.

Without a full payload they should be a little more agile.

This would allow you to equip some missles on a bomber, once his payload is gone, he's not as useless. I find once a bomber drop it's payload you don't care if he dies, but increase his agility by one and maybe you will have a bomber that can be more useful after his chambers are empty

A bomber with ordnance on it is usually a target

Once it's gone your opponent usually does not think its much of a threat so moves on to more deadly ships.

Since the bomber may have already taken dmg the extra agility helps his survivability maybe since now the weight of his ship has decreased making him a little harder to hit

With shields being ignored you would keep the single use.

Large and epic ships, or really any low agility ship, will be higly susceptible to ordnance, making them need to have an escort.

So many astromechs would get more use - the ones that remove damage, r4-d6 will save a ship from being a one shot kill.

Expert handling will see more use, as will deadeye to counter.

Elusiveness and draw their fire become really helpful.

High agility ships have a better chance to outfly/dodge the missiles - something thematic to many fighter ace characters in different media.

Players have to be prepared for a shakeup in threat assessment - attack fat Han or the b-wing with torpedoes?

Ships vulnerable to being blown out of the sky by a torpedo may consider the hull upgrade in lieu of another modification. This means fear of ordnance will lower the potential offense of an enemy.

Lower skilled generic pilots find great use - if a named pilot with a torpedo is a prime target, field generic pilots with ordnance, especially in an epic game.

As per the lore, the deathstar exhaust was ray shielded, so if fighters are similarly equipped, it leads to another modification being created:

particle shields - your shields are not bypassed by ordnance (I would put it that you can't fire ordnance with this upgrade equipped). This is to protect your heavy laser/mangler cannon attack ships, or any ship susceptible to ordnance.

Once again, if low agility/large ships take this upgrade over more offensive options, it can be a tactic for the attacking player. Fear of the what if situation will shake up the much touted meta.

As an added bonus, no cards printed so far have to br changed. They stay as is. A paragraph in the FAQ is all that is needed, or a new torpedo/missile info card in an expansion.

Modification (bomber only)

Advanced targeting sensors

7pts

Missles and torpedoes ignore shields

Or maybe

Crits ignore shields

My favourite suggestion by a long way is ordnance cancelling all evades if it hits.

So just like a Proxy Mine hit?

I doubt they'd introduce a rule that contradicts cards as printed, especially since they had the opportunity and put out Munitions Failsafe instead. If they further tweak ordnance, it'll be with new upgrades and/or types of ordnance.

That's why I think a further definition of the ordnance types: missiles and torps, would be a graceful and simple tweak.

Not that it will happen, but the more I think about it, the more I think that missiles ignoring evade results and torps ignoring shields would really shake up a lot of the meta.

Following on from the "why the hell would you ever want to choose anything but a Cannon Upgrade slot on a Heave Scyk" thread...

...is it time for the "discard this card" rule to be removed from ordnance?

Considering the points cost, the range restrictions and necessity of obtaining a Target Lock (or Focus) to fire in the first place, would this make ordnance OP?

If so, how about in conjunction with adjusting the range limits to usable at Range 3 only (Proton, Assault, Concussion etc) or Range 1 only (Cluster, Advanced Proton, Proton Rocket etc)

There has to be some way to make ordnance a more viable option...

Let's do some brainstorming, people!

Once upon a time turning ordnance into "cannons that require a TL to use" may have worked but now TLs aren't so hard to get and the cost of ordnance is such it would be too good if it weren't discarded. The simple reason no one seriously considered missiles or torp on the Heavy Scyk is because of that 2 point surcharge which makes the cost effective ordnance too expensive and the expensive ordnance suicidal.

You aren't going to change the ordnance that has already been released. The Munition's Failure modification may make it a little less risky to use IF you are sure you can get a second shot if the first one misses but that is a minor improvement. Perhaps an "Unlocked Ordnance Release" modification that allows firing without having a TL could work but how to price this and may it work could be debated. I'm not sure about pricing but here are some possibilities:

Unlocked Ordnance Release - Modification

1. Have it function like Deadeye.

2. Allow Ordnance to fire ignoring TL/Focus requirements but NOT allow those token types to modify that attack.

I have long supported a new missile type that is not discarded after use. This would be like a cannon except with the TL requirements for firing to differentiate it.

What about a dedicated campaign system with ordnance pools? - that's generally how I do it.

There is still the alternative to 'tap' the cards rather then discard them, use an action to untap - like in Star Trek Attack Wing

or to have a timer running when its usable again (e.g. usable again in 2 rounds) - like in D&D Attack Wing.

Something like this would be plausible at least with Tie Bombers (and Y-Wings)

My favorite fix to munitions is that if the attack hits, it does damage equal to it's attack value. The similar idea of cancelling evade results would work as well. I like this because a hit from a torp or missile should do huge damage to a ship.

Think of it this way. If you fail to fully evade a laser blast, you may get a reduced hit from only getting partially hit. If you fail to evade a missile or torpedo, it rams into you and explodes, dealing huge damage.

I read all the X-wing books, as I am sure many of you did. Proton torpedoes were a huge part of flying an X-wing and could take out a ship alone.

If you are really worried about this being over powered, double the agility dice being rolled, to show that high agility ships can evade ordinance easier.

This way you are paying a premium for a single attack, but that attack has the chance to really wreck a ship if it hits.