I'm wondering about something. When a noble child reveal to be a psyker and they take him to Black Ship and he become an Astropath Transcendent, does he lose his nobility?

He is consider only as psyker or counted an nobility too? Is there any lore about that?

It bothers me because one of players created such character (plus a Witness of the Dusk) and my RT have problem with how treat such individuum.

Unless I'm missing something it's a grey area with no direct answer.

Lets speculate: being a noble is usually based upon your family and heritage, so IF PC's family is still in direct contact with PC and IF they have ok feelings towards psykers (Witness of the Dusk you say...) THAN PC may even not be a noble per imperial law but PCs family influence is such that everybody treat him like he was.

Really it's your and your players call.

My interpretation of the fluff has always been that when someone is taken by the Black Ships (or equivalent), they essentially - at least legally - lose all claims to land, assets, wealth and titles.

For years, possibly decades, they are indoctrinated and trained, and finally sanctioned - in the case of Astropaths, a sanctioning involving a spiritual experience so strong that it literally burns their physical eyes out.

The Imperium is a massive bureaucracy, and out of all the castes of the Imperium, all the titles and hierarchies, psykers are arguably amongst the lowest, and the Imperium's reliance on them is out of sheer necessity. Psykers are taken from their families, secluded, and essentially forced to go through processes no human would willingly do, to become part of a form of brotherhood, and although not formally a religious institution, nearly clergy.

There would be a lot of issues with psykers retaining their positions once they are taken, from the feudal system of the Imperium and the authority a nobleman might have (you might very well outrank the man that is your superior), the wealth of potential resources in the hands of filthy psykers that are the first to become corrupted, to political leverage directly in the hands of psykers.

All of that leads me to believe that at least formally, psykers are stripped of titles and so forth - although some psykers may certainly regain some, or gain new titles, depending. Or maybe they retain their titles, but they are legally moot. So it doesn't matter if you're a Duke, Archon or Sultan - you get to keep it as part of your name, but it has no legal weight.

That being said, an Astropath that was born from a noble family may very well maintain some contacts to his old life, or may still have some political clout to throw around by virtue of his bloodline, if not his own authority, then authority-by-proxy.

I'd honestly need to know more about the character and it's backstory to judge even subjectively, because it's a complicated subject (because the Imperium is complicated). My immediate idea for a character like this is someone that was a nobleman from the beginning, and used that clout to be assigned near his own noble family, perhaps as part of the choir on the same planet, using his and his family's contacts to be exactly the kind of corrupt Astropaths aren't supposed to be, and became involved with the Witnesses of Dusk (I forget the exact backstory of Witness of Dusk, but didn't it have something to do with Erasmus Haarlock, as well?).

The family used it's pull to have the Astropath protected by the Rogue Trader's Dynasty and secured a position on the ship to avoid a nasty and protracted investigation regarding these ties between the family, the Witnesses of Dusk and Erasmus Haarlock (or something like that).

So. Does a psyker lose it's nobility status when it is discovered that it is a psyker?

Easy answer: I'd say yes.
Long answer: Possibly, but the extent can vary.

Being a noble in Imperium is like 99% build on PRIDE, so nothing wrong here .

I don't think that minor noble family has enough reasources to keep track of its psyker-scions, deciding where they would be send being even few leagues farer.

Essential thing is this turmoil you've mentioned. AFAIK there's only one =I=nstitution* that can point a psyker and say: that one is/will be/had been a noble. Fits with Witness of the Dusk stuff.

Maybe take diffrent direction on this. Imperium is quite huge, so maybe there's some astropath-reliant, distant planet where population as a whole treats astropaths like nobles?

*(yet, to my taste, there's enough of this Institution already, so maybe somebody can came up with an idea involving giant robo-dinosaurs)

I should also point out that the Black Ships do not exactly make frequent runs. It has been mentioned that they're obliged to make a trip every one-hundred years. Thus, most psykers are kept a long time in prisons or other safekeeping until the next round, or get shot if they are deemed too dangerous. Of course, if you are in a hub area or close to a Scholastica Psykana training facility, they'll probably be there more often.

Thus, if the gifts of a psyker is discovered somewhat late in life, they could still manage to live up to a hundred years in realtive "freedom". He could have managed to make contacts in that time, although his titles are probably null as Fgdsfg pointed out.

There is also a difference between being an inheriting noble and being of noble lineage . You can (and probably do) take away the first, the second is all a matter of personal pride and how much the rest of your family and local nobility accept you. In many ways an Astropath's nobility is based as much on his peers, family and surroundings then anything related to titles.

Thanks everyone for response and sorry it is so late

If Noble by blood only, this is no problem. Humans from all walks of life, from the most affluent noble to the most mutated underhive scum produce psychic children every now and again. It happens, but as has been said before, they don't lose their heritage.

As far as their actual titles, wealth, etc...?

I'd say it depends on the family really. If a family is wealthy enough, powerful enough, and most importantly, holds the psyker in extremely high esteem, I wouldn't see it as an issue for them throwing a bit of extra money around to get their wayward psyker kin brought back home after their training (if they survive) to serve the family once more in their new role. If they are especially generous, they could even reinstate any titles lost when they were collected. Is this the standard however? Likely not.

The Imperium is a big place that has difficulty keeping track of anything other than the broadest happenings in their space, so really anything can happen. The Adepta Astra Telepathica can't keep track of every one of its psykers or astropaths after they are assigned their new duties, so it is entirely conceivable that they could return to their families if the power and pull was there, and resume being nobles. They'd have new duties to perform for their noble family, but with the right connections, I wouldn't see an issue with a psyker or astropath continuing to be a noble every now and again. Again, I'm pretty sure the opposite is true, but in a galaxy with literally millions of planets colonized, and quadtrillions of people, if there is even the most remote chance it can be plausible, it has realistically likely happened already.

For the most part, I'd write it off. You are taken from your family, home, hovel, or whatever, regardless of who you are, and taken all the way to Earth (that might be an exaggeration, but much material seems to point to the Adeptus Astra Telepathica training all psykers on Holy Terra, and if you were to become Soul Bound, you HAD to be on Earth, as the Emperor is there. In this line, your little Calixian noble is plucked from the gilded cage of Scintilla, at the young age of 15 (I don't know, truth be told), and tossed into a very different cage aboard one of the Black Ships. For however long, you are kept under the crushing weight of the null holds, watching your peers languish and cry, dying slowly, not knowing how long you'll remain in this torment. Finally, you are released, and find yourself a mere stone's throw from Terra, birthplace of your entire species, and hone of the Immortal God-Emperor, and then you are tossed before robed figures, and armored dudes with bolt pistols. If you do anything wrong, you are killed, and if you live, it is grueling days of trying to make you crack, to be shot. Days, months, even years might begin to blur together, and when you are finally done, having seen most of your others die, crack, or worse, you are pronounced Sanctioned, and possibly a decade older (DH had some number for the time this took, but I'm not in front of it, right now.) Now, the AAT has you, and they will send you to wherever you are needed, be it the Imperial Guard, the Inquisition, or whatever you were trained to do. If you even remember the people you left behind, and have any desire to go there, I don't think it's in your hands to decide, and nothing says anything/one you left behind is still there. As a psyker, you are rather second class, not noble class, so I think you lose all that stuff, along with freedom. Certainly, I can't back this up with proof, but I feel my diatribe fits, and almost no Imperial citizen would want to be ruled by a psyker, if that was the level of Noble you were. I think you'll be more like inducted Imperial Guard, sent forever to wherever you are needed, and never going home, again. My opinion only, of course.

Nobility aside I think of psykers as having Levels such as in this thread.

http://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/1066-psyker-levels-in-dark-heresy/

By default The astropaths in Rogue Trader would be Secundus Primaris Beta.

Beta
The Beta psyker can crush all opposition with a flick of the wrist. You may take minor psychic powers and take powers from any Discipline. You may Master three disciplines.

Most astropaths would be Secundus Adeptus Iota/Theta/Eta

The Adeptus group may only increase their Psi rating to a maximum of 2.

Venk gives a very accurate picture of what happens to psykers of that level. And most higher ranked ones too really.

Still it's important to note that Psykers in Rogue Trader, are unusually powerful, far above the norm. Destructus rank.

While they usually wouldn't have the power to choose where to go such desires might at least be heard, if ignored.

Psykers at that level should be as respected as Navigators. Low ranked Navigators that is. You can buy secundus ranked psykers sure. But Destructus rank psykers? Those guys make up the leadership of the Astropathic Telepathica. Those guys sometimes become inquisitors. Or the right hand men of nobles as Malcador the Sigillite was to the Emperor.

In general the AAT wants as much out of you as possible. A noble? Sucks to be you. You might have been able to escape excessive attention if not for that. They WANT you with your family if you have any clout. Pushing their agenda. Shipments of psykers from the expanse likely. Or the death of the Chaos Reavers, their competition. Or the development of a planet with focus crystals. Fail? Shipped to the Eastern Front. Refuse? Congratuations your a kill on sight heretic. If you succeed though. Well as long as you keep succeeding they'll let you be. Probably.

Personally I've always disconnected the class track from the rest of the origin paths... though I guess suddenly it makes a LOT more sense how it's set up...

Nobles can't become astropaths, and death worlders can't become rogue traders.... which makes a load more sense all of a sudden.

Nobles can't become astropaths, and death worlders can't become rogue traders.... which makes a load more sense all of a sudden.

Nobles gaining psyker powers usually would gain them through deals with the ruinious powers making them extra suspicious. Better to cut ties and quickly hand them over if found. Legitimate noble psykers would be so rare your own family would likely think you were a heretic. No matter how much they may have loved you. And usually those families would be right.

You might be able to work your way back to your family eventually though. If weak they might outright buy your freedom. A Primaris Destructus level battle psyker would likely have the most trouble. They'd want you fighting with the Imperial Guard until you die. Only story method I could see there would be to try to get in the retinue of an Inquisitor that works in the region you want to be in.

I'm feeling some serious deja vu right now. This may have come up before.

Astropaths arent second class citizens, sure they are something to fear (psyker and all) but they are a vital component to the imperium and are treated with a great deal of respect and honor. Sure, the psyker might lose their family ties (nobility) during the years they are trained and ascend after meeting the Emperor, that doesnt mean they cannot regain status as a noble (through deeds, acquistions, etc) or regain access to what was once theirs. Nothing wrong with it, just need to decide which path you want the Astropath's nobility to come from.

I personally keep the Career path away from the Origin path. You are looking at something like a million worlds in the Imperium, housing billions of inhabitants, not to mentioned the space stations, void ship families, etc. The origin path should likely be open to all careers because of the over abundance of diversity.

Sorry, late to the party on this thread.

I am necroing this thread just to comment my support for a Mentat Duke.

An Astropath legally is a member of Imperial Adeptus (except a specific one and compulsively without the right to resign), doesn't mean he won't count as a noble anymore.

Probably won't be able to actually run anything because "duty calls", he got a full time job. But still a relative and potentially useful connection (especially if working for a Rogue Trader).

As in, if a noble happens to serve in the Guard, and line of succession moves to him, presumably he (or some high-up back home) would have to petition for mustering out, so that he could be shipped back home to take that other job. Which may or may not be granted. In the Arbites or Administratum it may be easier to resign, but they can't just drop everything on very short notice either. But what would happen if the heir himself declines on account of "duty to the Emperor" (whatever the real reason may be)? Presumably, he will be skipped in succession, but still count as a member of family in every other way (and less threatening one at that, because not in the queue). With members of Adeptus Astra Telepathica the difference is that quitting isn't an option, "only in death the duty ends". Otherwise it may well work in exactly the same way: such and such is unavailable on account of duty to the Emperor (and may be not even in the same sector), write letters or something.

On 12/9/2014 at 4:42 PM, Wincent said:

so IF PC's family is still in direct contact with PC and IF they have ok feelings towards psykers 

In other words, if not disowned.