Alright so to my dismay a friend of mine revealed to me that both Aegis of euphedros and Flicker both give you the incorpreal trait. Which basically means u can't attack anything else except another entity with the Incorpreal trait. Yet on other forums I've read about how overpowered these spells are and how they make u basically untouchable to most attacks while still being able to attack in return. Most notably the Aegis of Euphedros is claimed to be one of the most powerful spells in the game, enabling the annihilation of daemon engines or even titans. How is this possible if u can't target them? There is a gift that grants u this ability but it is for Tzeentch only that enables the casting of psychic abilities. Must u get that gift then fall from Tzeentch's grace to use Aegis? Or does it being a spell ignore this? Is this simply an oversight by FFG? It makes me angry yet want to cry at the same time.

Clearly the power was meant to enhance the general use of psychic powers. Just ignore in this case the rule that incorporeal can't use powers and you'r fine. It's one of those rules that gears badly in this case.Hell, some rules are so badly written and contrary to lore that they have to be ignored completely like the -30 for unaligned Dark Apostles rituals or chaos spawn minions that die immediately outside of warp rich areas.

The rules for Incorporeal (p141, Core), it's not the best of wording but rather than looking for the horrible bits and reading the weaknesses or flaws that FFG added, instead look to see what FFG did not state. If they did not explicitly say "You cannot do x" then the field is open to interpretation. Instead all it says is:

An incorporeal creature can’t normally affect the mortal world, and thus can’t Damage non-incorporeal opponents unless it has a suitable special ability or Talent.

Psychic powers to me count as "suitable special ability". Which means yes you can use powers while ghosted.

You can be immune from most normal weapons including mighty battle tanks and, yes daemon engines as they are technically just machines and might not instinctively have warp weapon. At the same time though you're incorporeal and unleash devastation on the battle field without any fear of repercussion to you. Flicker allows you to do that ability combination. Aegis allows you to do it better by adding Warp Weapon and Tainted with all benefits thereof.

As a result, both of them are of some impressive value if used in the right time and combination.

I don't mean to call you out its just I have already tried that route and he explains the gift on page 294 labeled "Dimensional Instability" has a benifit for Tzeentch psykers. It reads "Once per session, the character may choose to be subject to the Incorporeal Trait for a number of consecutive rounds equal to his Corruption Bonus." With the Tzeentch bonus "If the character can pass a Very Hard (-30) Willpower Test, he may use Psychic Powers while Incorpreal."

Thus he states without this it is impossible (short of a GM stating u can). And I can't argue with him because it's RAW. So far as I have seen there is no other way to use psychic abilities while incorpreal, let alone target and attack someone with them. So as far as aegis or even flicker, my dreams are shattered.

Granted I'm already strong as is, I just don't get how these spells are useful aside from sneaking, going through walls, or running away.

Thanks again for replying.

Also I have sent the same question to FFG via the "Rule Questions" button, I will update and post their response.

While I'm here what about the warp weapon trait. For mantle of the daemon prince, u gain warp weapon trait. This states "Natural weapons and attacks made by a creature with this trait ignore physical armor unless it is created from psychoactive materials or is somehow warded against the warp." Does this affect psychic abilities too? Because it just says attacks. Personally I think if it works for ur weapons it works for ur powers.

I don't mean to call you out its just I have already tried that route and he explains the gift on page 294 labeled "Dimensional Instability" has a benifit for Tzeentch psykers. It reads "Once per session, the character may choose to be subject to the Incorporeal Trait for a number of consecutive rounds equal to his Corruption Bonus." With the Tzeentch bonus "If the character can pass a Very Hard (-30) Willpower Test, he may use Psychic Powers while Incorpreal."

Thus he states without this it is impossible (short of a GM stating u can). And I can't argue with him because it's RAW. So far as I have seen there is no other way to use psychic abilities while incorpreal, let alone target and attack someone with them. So as far as aegis or even flicker, my dreams are shattered.

Granted I'm already strong as is, I just don't get how these spells are useful aside from sneaking, going through walls, or running away.

Thanks again for replying.

No offence felt, I like a good argument as much as the next guy.

Dimensional instability is a seperate function within its own right. Just because it says there, character must make a test to use psychic powers while using this gift does not mean it applies to every instance where a character could become incorporeal and it sounds like your GM is trying to use a blanket interpretation of a single gift to apply to all circumstances where things are similar. Realise that in many circumstances Gifts of the Gods are often free to obtain and sometimes have no nasty risks of warp perils triggering when you use them so on occasions there is usually something to give it a bit of a dampener and some often have nasty stings in their tails (sometimes literally) and this sounds like a tradeoff for that ability.

Both allow psychic powers but the GotG requires a test to attack but the psychic powers do not necessarily have any such limitation. Otherwise if this was the case and there is no way of attacking while phased this would indeed make Aegis useless to have so many benefits to buffing your powers as you simply would not be able to use them. Your GM is wrong if you ask me.

RE: Warp weapons and mantle of the daemon prince. Warp weapon applied to a weapon means any attack with that item ignores armour unless psycho reactive or warded (which means bye bye AV16 terminator armour as long as you can get past the field.) So if applied to a sword this means any attacks with that sword also have warp weapon. If that sword is also capable of shooting or unleashing energy somehow (custom item or probably a relic somewhere which does that) then theoretically yes it would also apply to that. The same is also true of ranged weapons and shots from a weapon with this quality ignore the armour.

Concerning the power itself, no. Note that it gives you Deadly Natural Weapons, Unnatural Strength and Warp Weapon. This does not immediately confer to anything you necessarily use as the context of the power and what it has given you implies its making your own two hands (or feet, teeth, tail, other "appendages") into weapons capable of immense damage, far outstripping most normal weapons. It wouldn't necessarily work for your powers either based on the spirit of what the power is trying to do. It's basically morphing your physical body into that of a creature of the warp with all benefits thereof but it is not necessarily warping your mind.

Now if you stacked this and the Aegis...that might be interesting. Warp Weapons can hit incorporeal creatures which suggests you can, if you have the trait, also hit back. It would seem illogical for a type of weapon to only damage one way but not the other. In theory then you could stack the two effects.

Hmmm Touche...

I tried that approach too, but the way u said it just sounds so much... well better. Thanks a bunch btw, very helpful

Pay attention to the power's description.

For the power’s duration, the sorcerer gains the Incorporeal (and thus, also the Hover (6)) Trait, gains a +20 bonus to all Willpower Tests, and may only take actions to move or use other psychic powers whilst in this state.

It is especially obvious that it allows psychic powers even without said description, cause it grants bonus to WP test and enhances powers. And it is also RAW. Kindly tell your GM to stop being a blind ****.

I'd say that ability to use psychic powers whilst Incorporeal is debatable as written, but should have been allowed. Dimensional instability is probably a very special case of this trait.

Indeed the power does state this, and incorpreal never says u can't actually use powers. The question that was stated was whether or not I could actually target beings without the incorpreal trait. My GM also doesn't have the Tzeentch book. Not that this is a problem because I share mine with him. It was because he was actually reading RAW that bore the question in the beginning. But thank you for ur contribution.

Incorporeal itself is actually very clear in that you cannot normally affect the mortal world, and thus can't damage non-incorporeal opponents unless it has a suitable special ability or Talent.

However, in this case, the power that grants Incorporeal specifically allows you to use psychic powers.

Funnily enough, by RAW, there isn't actually anything preventing you from already using Psychic Powers - they just won't damage anyone or affect the mortal world - whilst Incorporeal. The power, interestingly, specifically allows you to use psychic powers, but says nothing if these will now "affect the mortal world".

I believe that the intent is for the power in question to allow you to use psychic powers unrestricted, but by RAW, it doesn't actually do anything.

I always thought that you can not only use Psychic Powers whilst Incorporeal, but quite easy damage anyone and anything with them. Psyker Trait, Psy-Raiting and various powers are quite suitable special abilities and talents, for the requirement by RAW.

I actually believe that interacting restriction only affects normal attacks and actions. And psykery things are anything but normal.

It's really that obvious. Still doesn't excuse the lousy rulings though.

I always thought that you can not only use Psychic Powers whilst Incorporeal, but quite easy damage anyone and anything with them. Psyker Trait, Psy-Raiting and various powers are quite suitable special abilities and talents, for the requirement by RAW.

I actually believe that interacting restriction only affects normal attacks and actions. And psykery things are anything but normal.

It's really that obvious. Still doesn't excuse the lousy rulings though.

Now, I may not agree with those rules, but they are pretty clear.

I do agree that psychic powers should effect the mortal world because they can effect the incorpreal world from the real world so it just makes sense that it can go both ways. The problem is RAW doesn't actually support or deny this. It just says attacks cannot effect the mortal world... yadda yadda yadda... unless you have a special ability or talent.

Side tracking here. Is someone with the collar of khorne immune to The mantle of daemon prince? Because technically ur transforming ur body not actually attacking him with a power. But I could also see the argument that it becomes an offensive power when u attack the target and such the collar negates it. Would this mean u get transformed back to ur normal self as u get close and then revert to daemon when ur attack finishes? Personally I'm of the opinion that u uses the warp to transform ur body and as such ur not actually hitting the enemy with the powe but with the claws and teeth u just attained.

Nay, what the RAW says is quite unclear and this is exactly why this thread have poped up. Still, I got the similar thoughts too, seeing the Dimentional Instability and this Aegis of Euphedros. It just seems weird to me, so I, personally, prefer to simply ignore this.

Is someone with the collar of khorne immune to The mantle of daemon prince?

Nay again, they are not. Psykery-immune beings are immune only to actions more or less directly affecting them. In that case it'll function as described in the talent's description. Just without a WP roll.

Powers that can affect them undirectly, however, are perfectly valid. So throwing boulders or enhancing your own abilites to match with the target is okay. And the latter is exactly what Mantle does.

Same rule apply to everyone with the similar abilites, like untouchables, Slaught and others.

*Evil grin*

Good good.

Nay, what the RAW says is quite unclear and this is exactly why this thread have poped up. Still, I got the similar thoughts too, seeing the Dimentional Instability and this Aegis of Euphedros. It just seems weird to me, so I, personally, prefer to simply ignore this.

I already said before. Do I really need to repeat myself?

The trait says you can't affect the mortal world normally without a suitable special ability or talent. Which could also include psychic talents. And without anything suggesting restrictions or allowing such things in the description. While any psychic powers hardy can be considered "normal".

It also says that Daemons, warp creatures, psychic powers, force weapons and other Incorporeals, interact with you normally, possibly even damaging you. With all of this things having a direct connection with the warp. So I see it only fair that you can affect them with psychic powers in turn. Especially in the case of daemons and warp creatures. I would have even gone so far as to allow attacking them normally.

And you can only guess what was intended with the very few glimpses with the said Gift or subject psychic power.

So this why it hardly can be called clear. The existance of this same thread I'm posting in right now only proves this.

The trait says you can't affect the mortal world normally without a suitable special ability or talent.

Generally text along the lines of "unless it has a suitable special ability or Talent" means "unless an exception is expressly made", and this is what they were trying to make clear both with Aegis of Euphedros and with Dimensional Instability.

I already said before. Do I really need to repeat myself?

The trait says you can't affect the mortal world normally without a suitable special ability or talent. Which could also include psychic talents. And without anything suggesting restrictions or allowing such things in the description. While any psychic powers hardy can be considered "normal".

It also says that Daemons, warp creatures, psychic powers, force weapons and other Incorporeals, interact with you normally, possibly even damaging you. With all of this things having a direct connection with the warp. So I see it only fair that you can affect them with psychic powers in turn.

Especially in the case of daemons and warp creatures. I would have even gone so far as to allow attacking them normally.

And you can only guess what was intended with the very few glimpses with the said Gift or subject psychic power.

So this why it hardly can be called clear. The existance of this same thread I'm posting in right now only proves this.

You're muddling the RAW with "...I see it only fair..." and "I would have..." .

For reference:

Incorporeal:

Incorporeal creatures are insubstantial and weightless, able to pass through solid objects such as walls and weapons. An incorporeal creature gains a +30 bonus on Stealth Tests due to their ability to merge with objects and the fact they make practically no sounds when they move. Incorporeal creatures gain the Hoverer (6) trait. An incorporeal creature is also immune to normal weapons—they simply pass through its body as if it wasn’t there. Daemons, psychic powers, warp creatures, other incorporeal creatures, and opponents armed with force weapons may all injure an incorporeal creature normally. An incorporeal creature can’t normally affect the mortal world, and thus can’t Damage non-incorporeal opponents unless it has a suitable special ability or Talent. Creatures with the Incorporeal trait can Damage other creatures with the Incorporeal trait normally. Certain devices can keep an incorporeal creature at bay, most notably the Gellar Field of a spaceship. Creatures with this trait cannot pass through such a field.

The RAW is in fact very clear in that unless you have a suitable special ability or Talent, you cannot normally affect the mortal world . In effect, unless it specifically allows you to waive those restrictions in some capacity, they apply.

That this RAW is not only the RAW, but also the RAI, is further supported by the nature of the Dimensional Instability Gift of the Gods and the Aegis of Euphedros Psychic Power, but that point is ultimately moot; my point is the RAW.

It is highly debatable (IMHO) whether this all makes sense or not or whether this is how the Incorporeal Trait should work, and as written, Aegis of Euphedros is utterly useless, but the RAW itself is actually very clear on the matter.

I believe the argument for uncertainty in the RAW revolves around how "suitable special ability or Talent" is being defined, especially the word "suitable".

Does/might a psychic power fall under the definition of "suitable special ability or Talent" (effectively leaving the final call to the GM), or does the "suitable special ability or Talent" have to explicitly state that you can bypass the normal restrictions of Incorporeality with it?

I can see where it's coming from, but ... honestly? Most ways to run into this are likely to have special rules covering their specific case.

The RAW is in fact very clear in that unless you have a suitable special ability or Talent, you cannot normally affect the mortal world .

It is not clear in how to interpret this suitable special ability or Talent .

The implications of the Gift and Power are another matter.

I see no point in continuing discussion. It have just became a matter of opinion. At least, in my eyes.

Tim Huckelbery

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Hi Colby!

While Incorporeal, a character can’t physically interact with his surroundings, so he can’t use a gun or sword against a foe unless that foe is also incorporeal. He can though still use psychic powers though; this is a non-physical interaction.

Force Storm—not a typo, but certainly something we can look at adjusting in an errata based on gaming reports using it. It’s a very expensive power to gain, effectively needing 650 xp, so it should be pretty powerful. Force Bolt only effectively needs less than half that, so it should indeed be less powerful. Try Force Storm with +2 damage per PR perhaps in your games and let us know how it goes!

Hope this helps and thanks for playing Colby!

Tim Huckelbery

RPG Producer

Fantasy Flight Games

[email protected]

Visit us at http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/

Email received and posted. Also double checked another disagreement. Well you win some you lose some. That's all folks.

Thank all of you for your contributions and the debate.