With advent of wave 5 could we be on the cusp of the 2 ship meta. 1 tank one dart ? Of course the swarm will always be with us but given the cost of these phat tanks and the support options something fast and hard to hit/kill for back up or the a second cheeper tank looks to be the talk and the latest vassal tournament experience.

I personally think at least 1 phat turret ship is here to stay at least until scum drops or the Xwing and tie advance get the title cards kills big ship in two shots

played 3 games with my decimator Monday night, creamed the guy all 3 times

ran 2 black squadron escorts in first 2 games, then soontir in third game.

at the moment I am trying to build rebel lists to counter the "Fat Man and Little Boy" lists I think will hit the table.

Certainly seems that way. Except for the headhunter, which, at 12 points, is a necessity as a filler ship equivalent to the tie fighter, the most recent releases have been the decimator, the yt 2400 the phantom, the e wing and the defender.

Without relying on the tie fighter or headhunter, its difficult to effectively use these ships in squads of more than 3, and the most recent releases further this dynamic.

The prevalence of turrets, too, encourages fewer ships, as we don't need to worry so much about squad formations - covering flanks and blocking.

That is actually a really interesting question. If you look at the final table of the TCO that happened last night (Congrats Texx!) both of those players were flying two ship builds.

My knee-jerk reaction is that a 2 ship build couldn't withstand the fire power of say a Rebel or Imperial swarm, or have the damage output to deal with large ship count squads. I still believe that to a point. However, with the extremely maneuverable Dash build, for example, maybe ship count is not an issue when you can out fly your opponent and dodge arcs all day long. And the Damage Output is enough to break up the swarms and make them less effective with turrets all over the place now.

It will be very interesting to see what some of the Store Championship lists look like in early 2015, and what Scum and Villainy does to this crazy meta we live in today.

Scum and Villainy called it in their last podcast. This is the time for Corran and Echo. Rebel swarms might threaten their lists, but imperials really don't.

If Ion torpedoes or advanced proton torpedoes didn't cost so much for a SINGLE use. I would say load up a bunch of those to do battle against the new big ship meta... of course if you do that and instead your opponent shows up with a swarm your screwed.. well not so much for the Ion torps due to the splash damage. but using a 5 point shot on a Z or a Tie seems like a big waste of points.

I know Deci + Phantom girl is a thing but I had less success with that than when pairing my Decimator with a shuttle and 2 APs.

Perhaps the emphasis is off of formation flying, but having more ships means more action denial and control over your opponent's movement.

It means staggering your arcs so you cover more ground when dealing with slithering foes.

It means pounding into a 0 agility ship with even tiny TIE weapons will make a big difference in how long the Deci sticks around.

I know that I have had great success with the phat han list, one of the best ploys was boosting out of arc and just chirping away at the numbers, I sus this works for all the turreted ships and being able to block the flight path/ point your guns in the right direction is the key. Of course that is always easyer said than done.

I have mentioned this list in another topic and to be honest I think it may have some merit to get the job done

Wedge , stress astromec and vi

2x golds with ICT

22 points for your own flavour

Obviously it's a control type list, the bonus is that it's not a single use item. It's this type of list that I'm looking to run

I think there's going to be a lot of really great Double Ace builds that crop up because of Wave V. I really see Dash/Corran and Chiranechau being popular since more people are going to be able to fly them with more skill as time goes by. I think the Miniswarm remains a solid companion, but three Zs or three TIEs remain too easily taken out by a single powerful ship, when flown well. There are still advantages to the Miniswarm! They jam up big ships better than anything, and that's going to continue to be the case. But, for now, I think two very powerful ships are a solid option, and how they're built and flown will decide matches relatively early on.

And then, when Scum comes out, PS will drop and we'll be back to 3-5 ship lists as a majority!

I've been kicking around a couple list in my head for this scenario.

I've gotten a little practice using wedge, e'tahn and three Z's, been thinking stay on target and r2 astromech for wedge with the last three points but I'm still undecided.

I have to wait for wave 6 but the list I'm really excited to run is

Soontir fel PTL, autothrusters,

Howlrunner, VI

Obsidian tie

Academy tie x3

I think both of those lists give you a high PS guy to take down corran or phantoms, and enough firepower to protect him and then harass the large ship.

First off, is Scum and Villany considered Wave 5? I'll go with the idea that they aren't for the moment.

Personally, I'm not a fan of Fat Hans and their dominance. I think it is boring when so many of the top lists are incredibly similar. At first, I was concerned that the Wave 5 ships were just going to continue this concept. We would just see all the big, turreted ships used by the majority of the best players. I've been getting a feeling, though, that it might be different. For one, we will have an Imperial ship that will have a turret. That alone will add some variety into things that will make it more interesting. I'm thinking, though, that if there are 3 big ships with turrets......they each act a little different. They each have their own strengths and weaknesses. There is more variety. Yes, they are all big ships with turrets, but I think it will make a difference. Fat Han with C-3PO was THE build. Even the change to R2-D2 is a radical shift here. Some of the best players will now have access to three different ships that are all large and turreted. We are going to start to see a lot of variety in how people play. There will be a lot of meta and counter meta back and forth. What I see being possible is for other builds that are NOT based on Big Turret Ships (BTS) to slip in there and have a chance. In other words, the standard Fat Han will now be diluted with different ships and different tricks to counter each other. This might weaken the big ships capabilities against other builds. I see a chance that strong regular ship builds can become competitive because of this. Of course, this is just a prediction. I also think that some people will just get sick of flying Fat Han over and over again.

When Scum and Villany comes out, I see another chance for this to change things. For one, you will have a number of players that will just want to fly the new ships. That means less players with the BTS. That means a greater chance of non-BTS and non-Scum lists to have a chance.

Personally, I'm thinking of getting 3 more Tie Bombers before I get the VT-49 to go with a 4 Tie Bomber build. I think it has merit vs. non-BTS and against BTS builds.

2 ship lists actually being viable is real and amazing. Just consider Wave 1-3 and how you'd reacttk any of the possible 2 ship lists. Maybe Double Firespray was the closest to working, idk. I would definitely say you WILL see a lot of 2 ship lists, but there will be plenty of 4 ship Rebel (particularly Rebel Control), imperial swarms and what not that will be good matchups against some 2 ship list or another.

As for "Echo's time to shine", this won't be the case until all PS 9 like Whisper or Fel become less prevalent, unless of course you plan on including Rebel Captive and Darth Vader in every list (but what stops your opponent from doing the same to beat Echo). Though it is certainly true that Echo beats Dash a little easier than Whisper.

Corran is pretty solid, but still needs VI to compete with PS 9. I imagine he will be great in Wave 5, not without flaws, but a solid pick against Turrets and whatnot.

I have faced off against 6 YT-2400 so far, and the only one that gave me some serious trouble was in a two ship build. It had lone wolf, HLC and something else. It fled while Corran followed, which created a new set of troubles. Either I kept Soontir and Turr within that range 1 bubble and risk taking Corran's impressive firepower in my back or I turned around to deal with Corran, but then I had to contend with a HLC. Meanwhile, the YT-2400 stayed alive longer thanks to Lone Wolf.

It was an interesting match to say the least.

First off, is Scum and Villany considered Wave 5? I'll go with the idea that they aren't for the moment.

The first Scum & Villainy ships will be introduced in Wave 6. Wave 5 is comprised of the YT-2400 and the Decimator.

Wave 5 does nothing but makes fat falcon stronger. If we see the meta truly become all about 2 ships then we will the falcon being the absolute top. Why? Because of damage mitigation. Your standard falcon build with c3po and gunner negates 2 damage a turn. That means in the end game Tycho in an a wing cant hurt the falcon unless he is in range 1 and he can only do 1 damage.

Now the better falcon build that Jeff B came up with that has c3p0 and r2d2 negate 3 damage a turn. so that means your hlc dash can only do 1 damage a turn. Also means your decimator can only do damage if it's at range 1.

Now for even crazier shenanigans imagine this...

Han solo has Lone wolf, C3p0, lando, Experimental interface, falcon title.

You get your evade from the tile. Evades results 1.

You experimental interface and get lucky and lando gives you 2 more! Evade results 3

Kyle Passes you a focus or evade for offense of defense. Let's say evade for now. Evade results: 4

You guess c3p0 0 and roll a blank Evade results: 5

You lone wolf the green die and roll an arrow. Evade results 6

I for one welcome our 2 ship meta!

How come both two-ship lists and swarms are dominant, but mini-swarms aren't even though half the list is half of a two ship build, and the other half of the list is half of a swarm?

Wave 5 does nothing but makes fat falcon stronger. If we see the meta truly become all about 2 ships then we will the falcon being the absolute top. Why? Because of damage mitigation.

I can't entirely agree with that. Threepio is pretty powerful, and the Falcon title is helpful, but Fat Han isn't the end-all of lists. SuperDash alone can wreak havoc on Han, and Han doesn't have a lot of options in return (I wish I could find the Vassal game between Dom and Theorist that demonstrates this, but I'm on mobile). Even with R2-D2, you technically haven't canceled that third hit, you just get to make it back up (with a risk). Han has eight hull, and that's plenty of chances for something to go horribly awry. Never mind what an escort ship or three can do to Han on top of Dash attacking every round.

A lot of it is going to come down to player skill, but I don't see the Falcon being particularly stronger as a result of Wave V. I will also bet that Scum make it significantly less powerful even further ahead. It's a solid build, but there are going to be plenty of ways to deal with it by the time we're worried about Regionals next year.

Wave 5 does nothing but makes fat falcon stronger. If we see the meta truly become all about 2 ships then we will the falcon being the absolute top. Why? Because of damage mitigation. Your standard falcon build with c3po and gunner negates 2 damage a turn. That means in the end game Tycho in an a wing cant hurt the falcon unless he is in range 1 and he can only do 1 damage.

Now the better falcon build that Jeff B came up with that has c3p0 and r2d2 negate 3 damage a turn. so that means your hlc dash can only do 1 damage a turn. Also means your decimator can only do damage if it's at range 1.

Now for even crazier shenanigans imagine this...

Han solo has Lone wolf, C3p0, lando, Experimental interface, falcon title.

You get your evade from the tile. Evades results 1.

You experimental interface and get lucky and lando gives you 2 more! Evade results 3

Kyle Passes you a focus or evade for offense of defense. Let's say evade for now. Evade results: 4

You guess c3p0 0 and roll a blank Evade results: 5

You lone wolf the green die and roll an arrow. Evade results 6

I for one welcome our 2 ship meta!

This is the ship I've been talking about for months...6 every time isn't going to happen but even when you're hitting 3 and 4 consistently, and sometimes staring down 3 range 2 shots and knowing they can't even scratch you if they roll 6 crits, the game gets stale fast. Goodbye 2 red dice ships... go ahead, turn those filler ships into upgrades, less ships overall is also a bad match up.

How come both two-ship lists and swarms are dominant, but mini-swarms aren't even though half the list is half of a two ship build, and the other half of the list is half of a swarm?

Probably because 99% of mini-swarms are Phantom led and everyone's currently supposedly wielding Han like a cudgel.

I have rebel sort of mini-swarm I like to use, but havn't run into the local Falcons yet so no real input on mini-swarm vs large ship effectiveness.

or just fly around with 4 ties as cannon fodder.. evey shot taken at a tie is one shot NOT taken at the Deci..

Ive been mucking around with a Ceptor swarm list that has had great success vs the 2 ship Rebel lists for the past few weeks. Only takes one little mistake from the Dash player and you can be denying actions and staying inside RNG1 for a few turns.

Question for the masses, how long before people realise Dash is good, but not as good as Super Han and back to Falcons?

Ive been mucking around with a Ceptor swarm list that has had great success vs the 2 ship Rebel lists for the past few weeks. Only takes one little mistake from the Dash player and you can be denying actions and staying inside RNG1 for a few turns.

Question for the masses, how long before people realise Dash is good, but not as good as Super Han and back to Falcons?

I like the phat han over phat dash for one reason and one reason only, it's Han Solo in the falcon = cool to the power of cool.

Han has always been my favourite Star Wars character.

The decimator just looks so cool, kinda like a mini star destroyer. But I'm sure that before scum lands people will figure out how to beat the dominant builds. I found coran tooled up with 2 blues with HLC if played right would smash phat Han down, also 2 lambdas, on your with HLC and vessary with HLC and wingman could just sit in the corner and wait till the fat Han list came over and then that would lay the hurt down nasty too. The lambda list was quite boring to play to be honest. What I did was look at finding list that could beat down the 2 main power lists of wave 4 without using the main protagonists. It can be down and that's what makes Xwing so great, so many possibilities

As an aside, I am entertained by two ship builds. I like the idea of wingmen or buddies or whatever, I don't like the 60 point centerpiece and filler, that seems a little dull to me

I know Deci + Phantom girl is a thing but I had less success with that than when pairing my Decimator with a shuttle and 2 APs.

Perhaps the emphasis is off of formation flying, but having more ships means more action denial and control over your opponent's movement.

It means staggering your arcs so you cover more ground when dealing with slithering foes.

It means pounding into a 0 agility ship with even tiny TIE weapons will make a big difference in how long the Deci sticks around.

I've been considering trying Whisper, but I think I might stay with 3 ties instead. Actually can do quite a bit. My problem currently is that the Decimator definitely doesn't bash opposing Whisper hard enough. Its quite possible to still flub 0 hit or 1 hit a 3 dice Gunner with Focus. =( Rolling 4 defense dice is a lot when your opponent doesn't have as bad luck as i do with them!