People, enlighten me please.

Without "addons", you can move a target getting enough FP and passing the Discipline vs Resilence/Athletics/Coordination/Discipline. After spending 2 or 3 pips you can "hurl" someone, causing 0 damage until that person hits a wall or else that in that case will do 10 damage. Ok until here?

Based on canon, no one has been thrown more than short (up to 12 meters?). About the other fact the "knockdown" or the "stunned" effects, Advantages can fix this easily, so, a Force Push is something so easy like this?

Thanks mates!

This is the worst rationale. We have 40 types of blasters, each with a little mechanical tweak, but we can't get a defined Force Push. In the responses above, you and others are *still* hashing out the details, meaning what...? Every table reinvents it every time it comes up? That's fine for oddball uses of something, but not something as standard as a Force Push.

Yes, very much this. Force Push isn't some little bit of esoterica, it's one of the first things a Force User learns to do. Kinda needs a rule.

It does have a rule. It's called using Move to hurl your opponents against walls or floors, or just moving them range bands.

It's just weird to me that every other combat effect, and every other Force power for that matter, has more definition, but when it comes to Move people accept the fuzzy wuzzy approach.

I provided something that addresses all my issues on page one, without resorting to needing extra Talents. However, it's not play tested for balance, and that, my friend, is where FFG is supposed to jump in. I do not think (anymore) that the Move tree needs restructuring or needs Talents added, but it does need to at least outline ways to alter the usage of the existing Talents to account for extremely common effects.

People, enlighten me please.

Without "addons", you can move a target getting enough FP and passing the Discipline vs Resilence/Athletics/Coordination/Discipline. After spending 2 or 3 pips you can "hurl" someone, causing 0 damage until that person hits a wall or else that in that case will do 10 damage. Ok until here?

Based on canon, no one has been thrown more than short (up to 12 meters?). About the other fact the "knockdown" or the "stunned" effects, Advantages can fix this easily, so, a Force Push is something so easy like this?

Thanks mates!

Sounds about right. The only canon example of someone being "pushed" crazy far is Mace Windu. There might be an example in The Clone Wars...but yeah, you really just need the two pips and Success on an Easy Discipline check (or an opposed check, GM's call). That would allow you to "hurl" a Silhouette 1 target at Short range within Short range.

Sorry, but that's just empty, both in terms of mechanical effect and fluff. There's no pushback, resistance, knockdown, 360 effect, range limits, etc. Nothing that conveys the distinctive and consistent flavour of a push. Nobody pushes past short range (except maybe for Mace that one time) but RAW certainly would allow it.

It's just weird to me that every other combat effect, and every other Force power for that matter, has more definition, but when it comes to Move people accept the fuzzy wuzzy approach.

Pushback/resistance happens with an opposed check, something that is already dealt with in the rules and is a situational thing based at least on the capabilities of your target, what you're trying to actually accomplish, and the surrounding environment.

A "360 effect" can be affected by activating the Magnitude upgrades and/or the "autofire" portion of the Control/hurl upgrade

IMO range limits are unnecessary. Of course it's easier to affect targets closer to you, but why should it be capped so?

I've been using Move to perform "Force push" for a long time now, and it has never seemed insufficient to me. Allowing my PCs to resist with certain skills (sometimes Athletics, Resilience, Coordination, etc), and interpreting the mechanics of physically moving someone from point A to point B, and adjudicating Advantages and Triumphs, accordingly. Sometimes they end up on the floor, and that is the effect of being "Moved" (they are moved to a prone position on the floor). Sometimes they end up hitting their head on the wall and take a setback on their next check (which is essentially what Disorient is). The effect has been described as anything from an indiscriminate thrust that unbalances the PC to a controlled force that pins the character briefly to the wall.

As for the different types of gear, as Away noted that's across multiple sourcebooks, and one thing that players are after in a sourcebook is new gear, along with new species and new vehicles. It's a time-honored tradition since the early days of Dungeons and Dragons, aka the game that launched this hobby. And as FFG is a for-profit company, they want to ensure that as many of their supplementary books sell as possible, thus various types of blasters and starships and species. Two of the most popular books for WotC's run was the Ultimate Alien Anthology for the RCR and Starships of the Galaxy for Saga Edition, both of which were nothing but new species and new ships.

Meanwhile, there's a portion of the fanbase for this system that don't give a crap about the Force, have zero plans to buy any of the Force and Destiny books, and would have been pleased if the EotE and AoR core rulebooks didn't include that chapter on the Force. And with Force powers not being as strictly rigid as they were in prior systems (as noted, Saga Edition with it's various different powers to "use telekinesis to move something") there's not as much need for additional powers or power add-ons, as there's enough flexibility to allow the player and GM to come up with different or unusual ways to implement those powers. WotC and WEG had to keep cranking out new Force powers/skills/talents because of how those games were set up, with each power being a fairly distinct effect and not a lot of room for creative interpretation.

Away's also pointed out pretty much how Force push would work under the rules as written, which is what the OP asked for and was pointed out in the early responses. Not our fault he doesn't like the official answer. And yes, it is official, no matter how much whafrog might hate it, as it was a direct response from Sam Stewart, aka Lead Designer of the Star Wars RPG product line, to this very subject.

That means from the design team's intent, Force Push = Move + Strength Upgrade + Control Upgrade to hurl objects. Again, clear and concise , which is in spite of claims otherwise is apparently not what the OP is actually after.

As for different groups handling a given situation different ways... that's the beauty of the game. You could have 10 different groups interpret the same Piloting (Planetary) skill check to avoid a hazard a dozen different ways, and each of them would ultimately be correct. That's what Jay Little intended with this system's core dice mechanic, to give each group the means to narrate how things turned out after a given skill check.

You want to house-rule in something different for your personal games than the official stance on the matter, that's your call to make. But don't expect that FFG is under any obligation to take your house rule under advisement. I've posted a number of house rule suggestions to these forums over the years, and while I would have liked a couple of them to be adopted by FFG (Shii-Cho Knight revision in particular as well as adding Improved Reflect to Ataru Striker), I'm not the least bit surprised or put out that said suggestions have been pretty much ignored. They may well work for my games, and the games of other folks, but they simply don't mesh with FFG's vision of what the game should be.

It doesn't take a creative genius to make the figure out that Move's Control Upgrade + Strength Upgrade = pushing a person away with the Force to cause damage. The rest is ultimately window dressing. In that case, the rules are quite clear that's the combination you'd need to do a "Force push" without deliberately spelling it out, making it concise in the sense that they're not spending excess verbiage in spelling it out.

This is the worst rationale. We have 40 types of blasters, each with a little mechanical tweak, but we can't get a defined Force Push. In the responses above, you and others are *still* hashing out the details, meaning what...? Every table reinvents it every time it comes up? That's fine for oddball uses of something, but not something as standard as a Force Push.

Except that we did get a defined Force Push, and it's been there since the EotE Beta.

Move basic power + Control Upgrade to hurl objects + Strength Upgrades for bigger targets + Magnitude Upgrades for multiple targets = Force Push that deals damage. Just want to push the target away (such as what Maul did to Obi-Wan towards the end of their duel in TPM)? Then you can drop the need for the Control Upgrade (as you're not looking to cause damage) and if necessary sub in a Range Upgrade if the desired end point (such as over a deep pit) is past Short Range.

Just because you don't like the answer doesn't mean it's universally wrong. A number of folks seem to like that answer just fine, as it does the job it needs to do; namely using the Force to hurl someone away and inflict damage to them, particularly to minions such as the B1 battle droids, who are the most frequent targets of a Force Push in the prequel films. Deal enough wounds to push a minion over it's wound threshold, and the player is pretty much free to narrate how the minion was taken out, be it a blaster bolt that blows the droids' head clear off its neck mount or a wave of kinetic force that sends a pack of them sprawling to the ground in pieces. And when the target of a Force Push in the films wouldn't qualify as a minion, they do seem to get back to their feet rather quickly, enough so that I doubt every Rival, Nemesis, or PC targeted has the Jump Up talent.

To be honest, Whafrog, your house rule on page 1 is fairly similar to what I've been doing with Move when I want to simulate a Force push/thrust. However, I don't see the necessity of thing like range restrictions or that 360 effect requiring a certain number of magnitude upgrades. It's too rules-heavy, and I suspect I'd never remember it all.

Qualities like Blast, Disorient, Knockdown, etc, they can all inform what happens in-game, but I don't think such a thing needs to be hard coded into the ruleset.

Nobody pushes past short range (except maybe for Mace that one time) but RAW certainly would allow it.

It's important to note that per RAW, it is entirely possible to move up to Silhouette 9 objects with Move, and unless they change it before final release, Force Lightning can be shot from Extreme Range and beyond.

While the books definitely have a focus on emulating the movies, particularly the Original Trilogy, FFG has still left capabilities of Force users to far higher points that can be seen in various games/Legends sources/ what FFG feels could be the upward potential of a Force user.

While the books definitely have a focus on emulating the movies, particularly the Original Trilogy, FFG has still left capabilities of Force users to far higher points that can be seen in various games/Legends sources/ what FFG feels could be the upward potential of a Force user.

It's very little XP and only a couple of Force pips to toss things to and from Extreme range, I'm not sure that really counts as "upward potential". In my own games I'd like to stick with canon effects, though of course the player is free to ask, and will probably be granted, extra effects if they get good rolls. Move is so open (unlike almost everything else) I feel the need to add boundaries in order to retain what I would consider a canon flavour.

To be honest, Whafrog, your house rule on page 1 is fairly similar to what I've been doing with Move when I want to simulate a Force push/thrust. However, I don't see the necessity of thing like range restrictions or that 360 effect requiring a certain number of magnitude upgrades. It's too rules-heavy, and I suspect I'd never remember it all.

Qualities like Blast, Disorient, Knockdown, etc, they can all inform what happens in-game, but I don't think such a thing needs to be hard coded into the ruleset.

For the qualities, maybe they don't need to be hard coded, but they could be suggested. And it can't be really "too rules heavy", can it? People seems to say that for any house rule, but they'll absorb paragraphs of text for other things. It's no more rule-dense than the Control upgrade. I don't want to have to reinvent it on the fly every time, it seems to me having it pre-coded means less work inventing it each time, which means more time spent on actually playing, getting to the action and narrative results.

The majority of you might be fine with how Push is done in Move, but there is clearly a significant minority who aren't. It keeps coming up, and for good reason. Has nobody noticed it's the only application of Move that gets a question? I would think a simple sidebar wouldn't be beyond FFG's capacity, and then it wouldn't keep arising. It's really not too much to ask.

And one thing nobody has answered no matter how many times this has come up, is why if you use the Control upgrade to throw a Rancor, it does 30 points of damage to itself...

Move needs boundaries.

The main idea is that the Control: Hurl option deal Sil damage to the "object" and to everything that get hit with it. So probably yes but... seems that more concretion is needed.

Again, without considering videogames, just canon, Move uses seems really limited and slow spaced. Not too useful in combat. Even the Push variant have tactical advantages instead a damage power.

Of course if you lift and X-Wing, sneeze and let it drop over Luke, he will receive above 40 damage XD But this is physics, not the Force itself.

Maybe the existence of "hurl objects as attacks" is only reflected in the Palp vs Yoda scene (other interpretations allowed of course) but there isn't a clear evidence of that use. Move seems to be more utility that anything.

PS: Any photoshop expert here please?

And one thing nobody has answered no matter how many times this has come up, is why if you use the Control upgrade to throw a Rancor, it does 30 points of damage to itself...

Move needs boundaries.

Because if I manage to beat that 6 Difficulty imposed by its Brawn (and this is supposing no upgrades by GM for added Resilience Skill Ranks), I'm probably trying **** hard to push that thing against the wall as hard and fast as possible. And even then, the relatively weak Captive Rancor is only going to take 18 Damage (before successes) after Soak. Have fun with a wild Rancor with more skills, soak, and wound threshold - something that won't be taken down by a bone in the mouth and a door.

The real question you should have asked is why can't other objects move as fast as other objects - ie., why can't you essentially make a rock move as fast/faster than bullets? The answer to that would ultimately be because you, as a GM, can freely allow your players to do so, adding in any requirements you so desire. Maybe they need a more difficult check, maybe they need to spend a Destiny Point. Ultimately, it relies on the more narrative aspect and GM-player cooperation to decide things so it can play to the game's strength of not needing 5 pages to detail a single form of a power.

And one thing nobody has answered no matter how many times this has come up, is why if you use the Control upgrade to throw a Rancor, it does 30 points of damage to itself...

Move needs boundaries.

Because if I manage to beat that 6 Difficulty imposed by its Brawn (and this is supposing no upgrades by GM for added Resilience Skill Ranks),

The difficulty is based on Silhouette, not Brawn, and there is no upgrade for Resilience. Unless I missed something.

Rancors are Silhouette 3, which is pretty easy to do even with fresh PCs.

Maybe they need a more difficult check, maybe they need to spend a Destiny Point. Ultimately, it relies on the more narrative aspect and GM-player cooperation to decide things so it can play to the game's strength of not needing 5 pages to detail a single form of a power.

Lots of "maybe's" in there, which is kind of proving my point. Maybe some of us would rather, you know, play the game rather than take several minutes to decide how Force Push works "this time". If the player gets a special roll, that's the time for invention.

And it's pointlessly hyperbolic to say "5 pages to detail a single form of a power". Can you at least keep the criticism real? Instead of a 1/2 page tree and half a page of text, they could have gone with a 3/4 page tree and 3/4 page of text. Hardly onerous, rules-wise.

The difficulty is based on Silhouette, not Brawn, and there is no upgrade for Resilience. Unless I missed something.

Rancors are Silhouette 3, which is pretty easy to do even with fresh PCs.

Unless the GM plans for the Rancor to be a push-over - at which point, why bother having one involved in an encounter - the Rancor would resist the Force Power check, which per the Resisting Force Power Checks section, suggests Brawn/Resilience.

Lots of "maybe's" in there, which is kind of proving my point. Maybe some of us would rather, you know, play the game rather than take several minutes to decide how Force Push works "this time". If the player gets a special roll, that's the time for invention.

And that's the problem. With this system, every single roll can be a special roll. And with upgraded skills/upgraded difficulties, you go from degrees of success/failure and advantage/threat to also having the possibilities of Triumphs and Despairs. It's not like some systems were it's just failure/success/critical fail/critical success.

The difficulty is based on Silhouette, not Brawn, and there is no upgrade for Resilience. Unless I missed something.

Rancors are Silhouette 3, which is pretty easy to do even with fresh PCs.

Unless the GM plans for the Rancor to be a push-over - at which point, why bother having one involved in an encounter - the Rancor would resist the Force Power check, which per the Resisting Force Power Checks section, suggests Brawn/Resilience.

Ah, I see that now, thanks. Still...I can't say it makes much sense that damage to a creature depends on its Silhouette, regardless of difficulty. You'd think it would be more of an application of Force pips and dice results.

Plus, I don't see why they could put some "suggested resistance" notes with the power descriptions. It still comes back to having to reinvent the rules each time. The other powers have decent boundaries, why is Move "more narrative" than the others?

Lots of "maybe's" in there, which is kind of proving my point. Maybe some of us would rather, you know, play the game rather than take several minutes to decide how Force Push works "this time". If the player gets a special roll, that's the time for invention.

And that's the problem. With this system, every single roll can be a special roll. And with upgraded skills/upgraded difficulties, you go from degrees of success/failure and advantage/threat to also having the possibilities of Triumphs and Despairs. It's not like some systems were it's just failure/success/critical fail/critical success.

Sure, and for weapons there's a nice chart of suggestions. You'd think a weaponized Force application would receive something similar.

Sure, and for weapons there's a nice chart of suggestions. You'd think a weaponized Force application would receive something similar.

The control/hurl upgrade of Move makes the skill check into a combat check, so table 6-2 is actually perfectly applicable.

Still...I can't say it makes much sense that damage to a creature depends on its Silhouette, regardless of difficulty.

The bigger they are, the harder they fall?

Still...I can't say it makes much sense that damage to a creature depends on its Silhouette, regardless of difficulty.

The bigger they are, the harder they fall?

Or "it's not the fall that kills you... it's the sudden stop at the end."

If a Force user is capable of hurling something at "attack velocity" then it's not that much of a stretch to figure that all that kinetic energy gets applied to both target and projectile. A bigger object thrown has a larger mass, and thus more kinetic energy when it finally hits something. And it could very well be that the Force user is able to hurl the target something akin "terminal velocity" right off the bat.

The damage for telekinesis has always been a tad wonky through the various Star Wars RPGs, but at least you don't have Jedi using marbles to inflict catastrophic damage (aka the "TK railgun effect") like you could in Saga Edition, since in that game the damage inflicted by the move object power was solely dependent upon how good your Use the Force check was; a competent Jedi (very easy to build) could deal more damage with a single pebble than most Soldiers could with a blaster rifle. Granted, the Jedi could use that power once or twice at lower levels, but it was still a lot of damage potential, and just got worse as they gained levels or took the TK-based Force talents from the Force Unleashed Campaign Guide.

Still...I can't say it makes much sense that damage to a creature depends on its Silhouette, regardless of difficulty.

The bigger they are, the harder they fall?

Or "it's not the fall that kills you... it's the sudden stop at the end."

If a Force user is capable of hurling something at "attack velocity" then it's not that much of a stretch to figure that all that kinetic energy gets applied to both target and projectile. A bigger object thrown has a larger mass, and thus more kinetic energy when it finally hits something. And it could very well be that the Force user is able to hurl the target something akin "terminal velocity" right off the bat.

The damage for telekinesis has always been a tad wonky through the various Star Wars RPGs, but at least you don't have Jedi using marbles to inflict catastrophic damage (aka the "TK railgun effect") like you could in Saga Edition, since in that game the damage inflicted by the move object power was solely dependent upon how good your Use the Force check was; a competent Jedi (very easy to build) could deal more damage with a single pebble than most Soldiers could with a blaster rifle. Granted, the Jedi could use that power once or twice at lower levels, but it was still a lot of damage potential, and just got worse as they gained levels or took the TK-based Force talents from the Force Unleashed Campaign Guide.

Or in WEG where using the force to throw something at someone or to push someone was an auto-darkside point?

Seriously I don't think anyone actually followed that rule....

Ghostofman,

I know a few GMs that did, pretty much going by the guideline that since we never saw Obi-Wan, Yoda, or even Luke hurl stuff directly at people via the Force, it was thus a dark side action; after all, we saw Vader do it in ESB and he's clearly a bad guy, so it must be a bad guy tactic

Of course for those who've come by Star Wars RPGs via WotC or FFG and have no experience with WEG, one has to remember that WEG published their RPG long before the prequels were even a glimmer in Uncle George's eye. I suspect that if WEG still had the license by the time the prequels came out, a fair number of Force powers would have gotten revised based on what we saw Jedi doing in those films.

Hi people! I like the FFG version to determine "Dark Side decandency".

It's not the typical "if you use X, or do X against a living being or with anger... you automatically gain X Dark Side Points".

Here they told you that earn Conflict that GIVES the chance to lower the Morality score.

Small traumas can be "easily" healed but a lot of them can hurt your mind (of course a major trauma can almost assure a psich damage).

So, without considereing the "rise the undead" from Heal/Harm, there is no action that automatically reduces your Morality (of course in some extremely cases GM can say something about this).

You can crush and Bind with some anger as Obi-Wan did crushing those two droids in Clone Wars while he was getting hit by a slaver. Or in that case where he attacked with anger Maul for revenge. Those actions give him conflict, of course, but not necessarely lowered his Morality.

So, the idea is that good guys don't even think about action that can give you Conflict, but it's a resource in some extreme situations that not necesarelly make your eyes glow in yellow XD

Sure, and for weapons there's a nice chart of suggestions. You'd think a weaponized Force application would receive something similar.

The control/hurl upgrade of Move makes the skill check into a combat check, so table 6-2 is actually perfectly applicable.

So spend 3 advantage. "Hobble" the target temporarily Simulates knocking the target of a force push perfectly. Knock a bunch of minions down killing several.

Ghostofman,

I know a few GMs that did, pretty much going by the guideline that since we never saw Obi-Wan, Yoda, or even Luke hurl stuff directly at people via the Force, it was thus a dark side action; after all, we saw Vader do it in ESB and he's clearly a bad guy, so it must be a bad guy tactic

Of course for those who've come by Star Wars RPGs via WotC or FFG and have no experience with WEG, one has to remember that WEG published their RPG long before the prequels were even a glimmer in Uncle George's eye. I suspect that if WEG still had the license by the time the prequels came out, a fair number of Force powers would have gotten revised based on what we saw Jedi doing in those films.

Indeed, also it was an 80's product, so I'm sure there was a little overcompensation over the whole "D&D is the debil!" thing as well. Following RAW in that system almost made your stereotypical Paladin look like quite the free spirit compared to the Jedi....