Except that with Autothrusters, blanks are okay.

1 blank, sure. 4+ blanks is still a dead squint. Every Imp player has seen 4+ blanks before. With a shield or hull upgrade, even without an evade or focus you're unlikely to get 1-shotted, and its impossible for an HLC(barring pilot abilities/crew/ect).

You attack with an HLC - 4 hits.

I have autothrusters and roll 3 blanks. I take 3 damage and blow up.

OR

I have a shield upgrade and roll 3 blanks. I take 4 damage and blow up.

I have ATs and an evade token - I roll 3 blanks, take 2 damage and survive.

OR

I have a Hull Upgrade + evade token - roll 3 blanks. take 3 damage and survive.

It's exactly the same. The only difference is that Autothrusters can trigger over and over and over, saving you multiple damage, while a HU/SU only saves you once. Plus cost efficiency!

I hadn't considered the stealth device possibility. RGP gives Soontir a range of possibilities for how to load out. Want to be defensive? Run shield or stealth. Want to be offensive? Then throw a TC on board. This thing puts all the squints back in the map in a big way. The saber with PTL and thrusters is only 26 points. That will fit in tons of lists.

Except that with Autothrusters, blanks are okay.

1 blank, sure. 4+ blanks is still a dead squint. Every Imp player has seen 4+ blanks before. With a shield or hull upgrade, even without an evade or focus you're unlikely to get 1-shotted, and its impossible for an HLC(barring pilot abilities/crew/ect).

An HLC could still one shot you even with a Shield or Hull Upgrade if they get at least one Direct Hit crit and the rest of their dice come up hits or crits. HLCs only change crits rolled on the initial roll to hits. Any crits that come from rerolls stay crits.

Except that with Autothrusters, blanks are okay.

1 blank, sure. 4+ blanks is still a dead squint. Every Imp player has seen 4+ blanks before. With a shield or hull upgrade, even without an evade or focus you're unlikely to get 1-shotted, and its impossible for an HLC(barring pilot abilities/crew/ect).

An HLC could still one shot you even with a Shield or Hull Upgrade if they get at least one Direct Hit crit and the rest of their dice come up hits or crits. HLCs only change crits rolled on the initial roll to hits. Any crits that come from rerolls stay crits.

Yes. Which could also 1 shot Xs, As, Zs, HWKs, TIEs, Advanceds, Ints, and Phantoms.

3 hits + Direct Hit is brutal for just about anyone.

It IS theoretically possible to 1-shot a Firespray.

Bloody unlikely, but possible.

Except that with Autothrusters, blanks are okay.

1 blank, sure. 4+ blanks is still a dead squint. Every Imp player has seen 4+ blanks before. With a shield or hull upgrade, even without an evade or focus you're unlikely to get 1-shotted, and its impossible for an HLC(barring pilot abilities/crew/ect).

An HLC could still one shot you even with a Shield or Hull Upgrade if they get at least one Direct Hit crit and the rest of their dice come up hits or crits. HLCs only change crits rolled on the initial roll to hits. Any crits that come from rerolls stay crits.

(barring pilot abilities/crew/ect).

You attack with an HLC - 4 hits.

I have autothrusters and roll 3 blanks. I take 3 damage and blow up.

OR

I have a shield upgrade and roll 3 blanks. I take 4 damage and blow up.

Wrong. 4 hits-1 hit=3 hits. 4 HP>3 Damage.Title+Thrusters+Shield upgrade vs 4 hits allows you to survive with 1 hp remaining even on 3 blanks with no tokens(barring crits from pilot abilities/crew/ect). On the other hand, you take Steath Device and roll 4 blanks(which happens), Fel is dead. Again, Thrusts+Hull/shield all but ensures you will survive at least 1 attack from an HLC(barring crits from pilot abilities/crew/ect).

It's exactly the same. The only difference is that Autothrusters can trigger over and over and over, saving you multiple damage, while a HU/SU only saves you once. Plus cost efficiency!

WHAT???? I love Soontir Fell. Maybe my favorite ship to fly. And he is a ship that demands to be upgraded. But were Fat Han is reliable, Soontir is high risk high reward. He is soooo good if you fly him well and dies in an instant if you make a mistake or have some bad luck.

Which is fitting for the daring and brave ace of aces.

Except that with Autothrusters, blanks are okay.

1 blank, sure. 4+ blanks is still a dead squint. Every Imp player has seen 4+ blanks before. With a shield or hull upgrade, even without an evade or focus you're unlikely to get 1-shotted, and its impossible for an HLC(barring pilot abilities/crew/ect).

An HLC could still one shot you even with a Shield or Hull Upgrade if they get at least one Direct Hit crit and the rest of their dice come up hits or crits. HLCs only change crits rolled on the initial roll to hits. Any crits that come from rerolls stay crits.

(barring pilot abilities/crew/ect).

You attack with an HLC - 4 hits.

I have autothrusters and roll 3 blanks. I take 3 damage and blow up.

OR

I have a shield upgrade and roll 3 blanks. I take 4 damage and blow up.

Wrong. 4 hits-1 hit=3 hits. 4 HP>3 Damage.Title+Thrusters+Shield upgrade vs 4 hits allows you to survive with 1 hp remaining even on 3 blanks with no tokens(barring crits from pilot abilities/crew/ect). On the other hand, you take Steath Device and roll 4 blanks(which happens), Fel is dead. Again, Thrusts+Hull/shield all but ensures you will survive at least 1 attack from an HLC(barring crits from pilot abilities/crew/ect).

It's exactly the same. The only difference is that Autothrusters can trigger over and over and over, saving you multiple damage, while a HU/SU only saves you once. Plus cost efficiency!

I genuinely have no idea what you're responding to here...

Are you suggesting taking a SU/HU and Autothrusters? That's fine if you want to advocate that, but I was responding to the HU/SU OR Autothrusters argument you seemed to be making.

In a straight one on one comparison (in a turret or R3 combat scenario) Autothrusters are superior.

Anyway, if that's not what you're trying to say, I'm lost.

Soontir Fel - Title+Thrusters+PTL+Shield Upgrade 36

Are you suggesting taking a SU/HU and Autothrusters? That's fine if you want to advocate that, but I was responding to the HU/SU OR Autothrusters argument you seemed to be making.

The debate was never AT vs SU/HU, but Hull/SU vs Stealth Device. I have no idea how you came to the conclusion that AT wouldn't be equipped as well.

Except that with Autothrusters, blanks are okay.

1 blank, sure. 4+ blanks is still a dead squint. Every Imp player has seen 4+ blanks before. With a shield or hull upgrade, even without an evade or focus you're unlikely to get 1-shotted, and its impossible for an HLC(barring pilot abilities/crew/ect).

An HLC could still one shot you even with a Shield or Hull Upgrade if they get at least one Direct Hit crit and the rest of their dice come up hits or crits. HLCs only change crits rolled on the initial roll to hits. Any crits that come from rerolls stay crits.

(barring pilot abilities/crew/ect).

Since Target Lock is a standard action on every ship that can use an HLC, I didn't think it was covered by "pilot abilities/crew/etc.".

Since Target Lock is a standard action on every ship that can use an HLC, I didn't think it was covered by "pilot abilities/crew/etc.".

TLs exponentially raise your chances of getting fragged, but its less likely they will be in range to do so on the first R3 volley considering PS differential on B-Wings/Dash. FCS makes up for this, but with a Stealth device you are betting 1 extra weaker green die vs 4 potential rerolls of a stronger red die. Again, I'll just take my extra shield and pray the Dark Lord favors me.

Since Target Lock is a standard action on every ship that can use an HLC, I didn't think it was covered by "pilot abilities/crew/etc.".

TLs exponentially raise your chances of getting fragged, but its less likely they will be in range to do so on the first R3 volley considering PS differential on B-Wings/Dash. FCS makes up for this, but with a Stealth device you are betting 1 extra weaker green die vs 4 potential rerolls of a stronger red die. Again, I'll just take my extra shield and pray the Dark Lord favors me.

I'm not sure what your point is. The reply of mine that you quoted was a refutation of this claim:

even without an evade or focus you're unlikely to get 1-shotted, and its impossible for an HLC

It has nothing to do with the merits of taking one modifiction over another, but with the mechanics of using an HLC.

even without an evade or focus you're unlikely to get 1-shotted, and its impossible for an HLC

It has nothing to do with the merits of taking one modifiction over another, but with the mechanics of using an HLC.

Error on my part, "impossible" shouldn't been "far less likely". HLC is certainly one of the main adversaries of 3 HP ships due to the extra die and ignoring range modifiers. IMO, the jump from 3 Hit points to 4 is more substantial than 1 extra(blank) evade die, especially when combined with AT. I'm sure someone will win worlds next year with a Stealth Device and AT and I will eat my words, but until then I will champion a shielded Fel.

Topic: Baron=FatHan

Answer: LOL

Han has 4 reasons why he's better than Soontir...and they're all little blue tokens that get stacked on his pilot card every game.

Topic: Baron=FatHan

Answer: LOL

Han has 4 reasons why he's better than Soontir...and they're all little blue tokens that get stacked on his pilot card every game.

And here I was thinking it was the extra 25-30 points or so that you spend on Fat Han that made it a bit of an uneven match.

Fat han vs soontir isnt close, han Evades 2hit from your 3 attack ship

But doesn't Soontir evade 2 or more hits from your 3 attack ship?

Topic: Baron=FatHan

Answer: LOL

Han has 4 reasons why he's better than Soontir...and they're all little blue tokens that get stacked on his pilot card every game.

Since he empire has no ship that compares yet to fat han this IMO is the best ship to go at him. It also costs a lot less points and gets you some nice buddies to bring to the fight. We all know how the fat fatties do against swarming ships.

No one has mentioned stealth device yet and I'm particularly surprised by this. If fel has his stealth device he will always be rolling a minimum of 4 defense die with the 1 blank turning into an evade.

I will have to do some playtesting but I can see Fel becoming near impossible to hit if you don't roll 3 hits.

Lets take a look at our upgraded Fel

Rolling 4 Dice with 1 blank -> Evade. Leaves the remaining 3 evades to hopefully get at least 1 symbol. Cap that with his evade/double focus and even Gunner could potentially have a hard time hitting Fel.

If you roll 1 evade and 1 Blank you negate any 3 damage shot at range 3 with your tokens.

IMO I'd rather have Shield or Hull upgrade. Green dice are hateful creatures, if you can roll 3 blanks, you can roll 4. If you can roll 4, you can roll 5. A shield and a guaranteed evade get more mileage than 1 more(potential) blank IMO.

I think it is an agreeance that if you loose your actions with fel you are probably going to loose him, the same would go with any 3 HP ship.

Assuming you keep your actions you and get hit with an HLC with 4 hits and roll 3 blanks you have auto thrusters for 1 and your evade token for a second. You are heavily damaged but still alive either drawing fire from the next ships or getting a shot in next round.

Fat han vs soontir isnt close, han Evades 2hit from your 3 attack ship

But doesn't Soontir evade 2 or more hits from your 3 attack ship?

The issue is gunner, however with better defense dice you will either a) tigger gunner due to your defense roll or B) choose to take the one damage and not have to spend your tokens and save them for return fire or other defensive rolls.

Fat han vs soontir isnt close, han Evades 2hit from your 3 attack ship

But doesn't Soontir evade 2 or more hits from your 3 attack ship?

The occasional hit will seep through on both ships. Soontir can only take 3 of them. Han can take up to 13. Who do you think is going to run out of HP first?

I think we are probably forgetting something here.

Fat Han > Soontir+PTL+Autothrusters for ONE reason.

Fat Han costs 62ish points, Soontir built in that fashion costs 32 pts.

So the REAL question becomes...

Is Soontir and 30+ points of other ships (2 x Soontir if that were possible) >= Fat Han? Before Autothrusters, I'd be skeptical to say "yes" (mostly due to turret negating boost/barrel roll), but with this card, I'd say YES that they are at LEAST equal.

Topic: Baron=FatHan

Answer: LOL

Han has 4 reasons why he's better than Soontir...and they're all little blue tokens that get stacked on his pilot card every game.

And here I was thinking it was the extra 25-30 points or so that you spend on Fat Han that made it a bit of an uneven match.

Points smhoints. I got two shot last night flying the Baron and he was packing Stealth and SU. Dice rolls can screw you in this game unless you get to reroll your rerolls or you get to take crew that flat out negate hits.

The rebels get tons of "nu-uhh, you missed me" cards. It's finally nice to see the worm turned a bit since green dice continue to be overrated.

If I could sink 60 points into Soonty so he could have the relative consistant damage output and survivabilty as FH I'd give him a go with 3 APs.

Fat han vs soontir isnt close, han Evades 2hit from your 3 attack ship

But doesn't Soontir evade 2 or more hits from your 3 attack ship?

The occasional hit will seep through on both ships. Soontir can only take 3 of them. Han can take up to 13. Who do you think is going to run out of HP first?

If Han is still at full health by the time that it's down to just him and Soontir then it's pretty much Han's game to lose. If Soontir had a reasonable chance to solo a 60+ point ship he'd be overpowered.

If Han is still at full health by the time that it's down to just him and Soontir then it's pretty much Han's game to lose. If Soontir had a reasonable chance to solo a 60+ point ship he'd be overpowered.

This is probably the best summation of this entire discussion. Fel hits hard and can dance like no one else and even with Auto Thrusters and HU or SU it only boils down to a game of attrition. A game that Han is going to win due to 5 shields, 8 hull and crew that can either mitigate damage or improve evasion. Frankly, they just aren't equal, BUT we all know that already.

Where this thread becomes interesting however is the notion of points distribution. Han at 60+ points depending on extras and Fel at around 32 points hardly present a mirror image of one another. The question I have for everyone is this: with that 30 extra points is there a ship (or ships) that you could team up with Fel to present a proper challenge against Fat Han?