We don't need to replicate Jedi exactly as seen on screen. Not everyone is Boba Fett or Han Solo or Princess Leia out of the gate, so why do Force users need to be the Jedi we saw? I can create a "Jedi" using F&D now as Jedi is a concept not a bunch of talents and powers. Obviously opinions will vary though.

It is not certain talents that I have an issue with, but the entire spec itself as it combines many good talents all in one place. Its a Jedi munchkin's wet dream for one stop shopping. Ever think that the designers specifically spread these talents out the way they did for balance in the first place? And there is no Force user that wouldn't benefit from it no matter the concept.

This is simply not true. While you may not exactly be Han solo, Leia, etc. In their "complete form" by the end of RoTJ at creation, you can reasonably emulate what you see them do in at least ANH. Give the 150xp and you're pretty much got them in almost their complete form. I would say another 100, maybe, to fully get them n there. Meanwhile, with the current state of F&D, the 150 xp doesn't allow players to emulate what we see most canon jedi do. This has pretty much been agreed upon by most users on this forum already. Knight play is a misnomer. Now the pushed rationale are "well they simple need more xp then" or "well they aren't real jedi". Logical inconsistencies in order to push these rationale.

Its a Jedi munchkin's wet dream for one stop shopping.

I wouldn't call a single rank of these Talents any kind of "wet dream"...but maybe you have lower standards for a wet dream than I do Seriously, what is one rank of "Second Wind" doing to do, other than demonstrate the merest hint of an ability to keep from freaking out in a conflict? You've spent 15XP on a Talent that can be replaced with a good dice roll. All this Talent does is suggest that keeping your cool in conflict is something that the Jedi Order feels is important.

Ever think that the designers specifically spread these talents out the way they did for balance in the first place? And there is no Force user that wouldn't benefit from it no matter the concept.

I don't think they did it for balance, they did it for focus and flavour, to show the different areas of expertise. And that's all fine, but again, there's no foundational element. From an Old Republic setting point of view, all the F&D careers are post-Padawan starting points.

Besides (again), ultimately you're making the argument that a tree has to partly suck in order to be "balanced". And (again), I just don't see that in any other tree.

Personally I would just create a Jedi Initiate package of abilities as a bonus to give a groups or individual to simulate early training, if I felt the need, and leave it at that.

But this won't work with OggDude's character generator

In any case, I don't think this represents an entire early life of Temple training.

Neither approach does.

And unless the PC is in their early 30's, nor should they have an entire early life of Temple training that's reflected in game mechanics outside those already available.

The simplest and least-munchkin method of a PC having "trained at the Jedi Temple prior to Order 66" is that they are Force-sensitive (i.e. Force Rating 1) and have picked up at least one rank in Lightsaber and the Sense power (as the snippets we've seen in the films and TCW of Jedi-in-training seems to include training in at least the basics of Sense). And that's all that's really needed to cover the "I've had basic Jedi training in my youth." Heck, it's probably not far from what Luke had after his training session with Obi-Wan during ANH, and would cover most of what an actual Jedi Initiate would have under their belt; if they wanted to be able to use their lightsaber in a more defensive way, they should take one of the Lightsaber Form specs and pick up ranks of Parry and Reflect that way.

Frankly, I really don't see the need for "oh, I've had Jedi training!" to give a PC an undeserved boost over other PCs that may be just as sensitive to the Force but whose back story doesn't include any sort of formal training. And that's ultimately what any sort of Jedi Initiate universal spec in light of Force and Destiny is, an undeserved boost simply because of an element of the character that's best left as back story.

Both Smog and Whafrog, based upon their posts and responses, are far more interested in creating a "power gamer" spec that would make longtime (and greatly departed) forum troll ErikB/Sylpheed almost giddy with joy at playing what they perceive as being "real Jedi."

Once again, lots of words and personal attacks, and no details. What is "power gamer" about this spec? Are single ranks of any of these Talents going to make a PC with this tree more potent than any other? If so, which ones? Are they too cheap? If so, which ones?

It's a well-rounded spec, for sure, that was the intent. But with being well-rounded, like with any PC at all, that means no areas of expertise. It's the same question as any chargen process, do you go for a spread of 3s in your characteristics, or grab a 4 or 5 in one? This tree is meant to provide exactly that same option, which none of the F&D careers currently do.

The spec, to me, is a step toward creating the issues that plagued other incarnations of Star Wars. Force users that eclipse other characters. Shrug. If that's what you want then have at it. Not my cup of tea. As I said I have no issues realizing Jedi or any other character concepts. As I said, the entire spec reminds me of Skill Focus: Use the Force. Just a big boost.

Its a Jedi munchkin's wet dream for one stop shopping.

I wouldn't call a single rank of these Talents any kind of "wet dream"...but maybe you have lower standards for a wet dream than I do Seriously, what is one rank of "Second Wind" doing to do, other than demonstrate the merest hint of an ability to keep from freaking out in a conflict? You've spent 15XP on a Talent that can be replaced with a good dice roll. All this Talent does is suggest that keeping your cool in conflict is something that the Jedi Order feels is important.

Ever think that the designers specifically spread these talents out the way they did for balance in the first place? And there is no Force user that wouldn't benefit from it no matter the concept.

I don't think they did it for balance, they did it for focus and flavour, to show the different areas of expertise. And that's all fine, but again, there's no foundational element. From an Old Republic setting point of view, all the F&D careers are post-Padawan starting points.

Besides (again), ultimately you're making the argument that a tree has to partly suck in order to be "balanced". And (again), I just don't see that in any other tree.

If the spec were attached to a specific career, then maybe your response would hold water.

But the problem is that PCs are not going to simply stop with just this one specialization , a core fact that you seem hellbent on overlooking. The biggest problem with this spec is that has far too much synergy with pretty much every other specialization, especially the Lightsaber Form ones, since it lets a PC stack up on useful talents will still boosting their ranks in Parry and Reflect and getting an increase in their Force Rating in the process. And if a PC just wants to delve a little into Lightsaber usage, well the fact that Improved Reflect is there is very much an incentive to do just that.

The core issue really is that this specialization falls into the old 3rd edition D&D problem of being a perfect "dip class" in that a PC can pick up the spec, cherry-pick the talents they do like, such as simply buying all the Row 1 talents, none of which suck no matter what your Force using character's build is.

And from interviews and discussions with folks like Sam Stewart, Andy Fischer, and Jay Little, game balance between the various specializations is very much a factor in putting them together, as well as thematic feel for the product line and book they are appearing in. By their own admission, they don't always hit the mark, as some specs are a bit better in what they do (Marauder being a notable one), but then none of the official specs fall into "OMG, this would stack great with my character build!" across as many specs as your's and Smog's munchkinized abomination of a spec does.

Again, as for blending being good with a lightsaber and good with the Force, the only official spec that does that is Niman Disciple, which is notably lack the Improved Parry and/or Improved Reflect that most of its cousins have, trading that off to get a Force Rating talent instead, and even that's tucked behind two talents (Center of Being and Improved Center of Being that are situationally useful) and takes a lot of maneuvering through the three to get there, rather than universally useful and a direct shot the way Smog has it set up in his tree.

And that's all that's really needed to cover the "I've had basic Jedi training in my youth." Heck, it's probably not far from what Luke had after his training session with Obi-Wan during ANH, and would cover most of what an actual Jedi Initiate would have under their belt; if they wanted to be able to use their lightsaber in a more defensive way, they should take one of the Lightsaber Form specs and pick up ranks of Parry and Reflect that way.

Not at all. The TCW younglings in season 5 were far more capable.

Frankly, I really don't see the need for "oh, I've had Jedi training!" to give a PC an undeserved boost over other PCs that may be just as sensitive to the Force but whose back story doesn't include any sort of formal training. And that's ultimately what any sort of Jedi Initiate universal spec in light of Force and Destiny is, an undeserved boost simply because of an element of the character that's best left as back story.

Again, you keep talking about "power gamer" and now it's "undeserved boost". Where, mechanically, is the boost? Nothing is free. The spec isn't free, and the Talents aren't free. And if you started this character at Knight level, you'd have to start any other new PCs with the same benefit, and they'd end up far more capable in their areas.

You can keep saying it, but without specifics, it's a bogus argument.

It's a well-rounded spec...

Apparently you're reading a different thread than everyone else, because anyone with a set of working eyeballs can see that this spec isn't 'well-rounded", it's simply overpowering and there's plenty of posts and proof offered to confirm that it's over-powered. I'd suggest actually reading what folks in this thread are saying instead of just glossing over it as you've accused others of doing with your posts.

Like mouthymerc said:

As I said, the entire spec reminds me of Skill Focus: Use the Force. Just a big boost.

And that's the core problem. It's just a flat-out power boost, particularly for the lightsaber-crowd

But the problem is that PCs are not going to simply stop with just this one specialization , a core fact that you seem hellbent on overlooking. The biggest problem with this spec is that has far too much synergy with pretty much every other specialization, especially the Lightsaber Form ones, since it lets a PC stack up on useful talents will still boosting their ranks in Parry and Reflect and getting an increase in their Force Rating in the process. And if a PC just wants to delve a little into Lightsaber usage, well the fact that Improved Reflect is there is very much an incentive to do just that.

I'm not hellbent on overlooking it, the synergy issue could be valid. But it's the same issue with any PC, I don't see how this is different. With the breadth of this tree comes a lack of specificity, which means, sure maybe a couple talents overlap with the second more specific tree they might pick, but most don't. And this overlap could be true of any of the other specs, in F&D or the prior games. The synergy between Marauder and Enforcer seems pretty high to me, that Intimidating talent can make a Marauder difficult to stop...plenty of other examples could be had.

I'll grant the issue with Imp.Reflect, but that is why it's so pricey here. And I do think such a signature ability has been poorly captured by the rules, but Smog already laid out the rationale in the OP.

Apparently you're reading a different thread than everyone else, because anyone with a set of working eyeballs can see that this spec isn't 'well-rounded", it's simply overpowering and there's plenty of posts and proof offered to confirm that it's over-powered. I'd suggest actually reading what folks in this thread are saying instead of just glossing over it as you've accused others of doing with your posts.

"Anyone with a set of working eyeballs" eh? What a cop out. I have been reading what people say. They have been simply making assertions, over and over, with no specifics.

Ultimately it comes down to you not feeling this tree should exist. And that's fine. But clearly we don't agree, so how many times are going to repeat that? Are you trying to be board cop or something, trying to prevent people from discussing things you don't think are worthy?

And that's all that's really needed to cover the "I've had basic Jedi training in my youth." Heck, it's probably not far from what Luke had after his training session with Obi-Wan during ANH, and would cover most of what an actual Jedi Initiate would have under their belt; if they wanted to be able to use their lightsaber in a more defensive way, they should take one of the Lightsaber Form specs and pick up ranks of Parry and Reflect that way.

Not at all. The TCW younglings in season 5 were far more capable.

Frankly, I really don't see the need for "oh, I've had Jedi training!" to give a PC an undeserved boost over other PCs that may be just as sensitive to the Force but whose back story doesn't include any sort of formal training. And that's ultimately what any sort of Jedi Initiate universal spec in light of Force and Destiny is, an undeserved boost simply because of an element of the character that's best left as back story.

Again, you keep talking about "power gamer" and now it's "undeserved boost". Where, mechanically, is the boost? Nothing is free. The spec isn't free, and the Talents aren't free. And if you started this character at Knight level, you'd have to start any other new PCs with the same benefit, and they'd end up far more capable in their areas.

You can keep saying it, but without specifics, it's a bogus argument.

The younglings in season 5 likely have a fair amount of XP from their training. As we keep saying just give more XP and you get what you want.

Sure, you can do that, I just don't think it works well mechanically compared to other careers.

And here you are putting all the good stuff from several trees in one greatly reducing the tree hopping that FFG put in as a requirement to be a well rounded force user.

"All the good stuff"? Again, you imply that all the other trees have crap in them, and not only that, you think that's a great game design. In any case, I disagree, the other trees don't have crap in them, they are just more focused.

And let's be clear about the extent of "well-rounded": this tree merely dips toes. It doesn't dive into anything (with the possible exception of Imp.Reflect, but that's a different discussion). The cross-over between this and other trees is minimal, effectively no more or less than you'd get by starting with an F&D career and then delving into other trees. For the few talents that do cross over to a specific second tree, many more do not...they remain untapped and undeveloped, and likely will remain so until the player picks a third or fourth tree. And by the time a Force user is on their third tree (with suitable investment in Powers), any of the other careers will be well into their fourth and suitably equivalent in power and ability.

One could argue that the lack of focus is a detriment. If you never take another tree with Second Wind, you end up with a Talent that has a very limited benefit. However, it conveys significant flavour, which is the core emphasis here.

Well lets see.
You have a large part of the Force sensitive emergent.
A large part of Shien
A large part of Consular Sage.

So instead of spending 110 XP on hopping between these 3 specializations I can hop into 1 tree and get a large part of what one would want from these 3 trees in one specialization. You have just made being a Jedi a WHOLE LOT CHEAPER. Which is TOO good. It is not that any one talent is too good. It is that you grouped so much of what would cause specialty hopping into one place so as to make what FFG designed to be expensive so that JEDI are not the best class just very broadly capable. Other classes can do most of what you see with 1 or 2 trees. Jedi are more diffuse. They require a lot of XP to get to what we see in the movies.

And that's all that's really needed to cover the "I've had basic Jedi training in my youth." Heck, it's probably not far from what Luke had after his training session with Obi-Wan during ANH, and would cover most of what an actual Jedi Initiate would have under their belt; if they wanted to be able to use their lightsaber in a more defensive way, they should take one of the Lightsaber Form specs and pick up ranks of Parry and Reflect that way.

Not at all. The TCW younglings in season 5 were far more capable.

More capability means more xp. This spec and extra xp will confer that quickly. Which is fine for homebrew.

This isn't a case of synergy between one or two specs like the Marauder/Enforcer synergy. This is synergy with every other spec. Combined with the fact that it is a unispec it is a must have for everyone. That makes it too good. But as I said, for a homebrew its fine.

Making Force & Destiny is a tricky job... If you want to have a well-rounded character, able to use force powers and wield a Lightsaber, you need to spread your XP around and probably buy into at least 2 specs (Niman + other), usually 3 specs (saber form + 2 others) to get Force Rating to 3....

I think the problem with Force Users is that some players expect their character to be able to do everything... Force Powers, Lightsaber, Abilities, etc...

You can't !

Let's take Han Solo... he's an awesome pilot, great gunslinger, scoundrel, mechanic, charming.... To build Han Solo, you'll probably have to buy into these specialties : Pilot, Scoundrel, Mechanic and Gunslinger... probably more.

Let's try Luke Skywalker... he's an awesome pilot, powerfull jedi, mechanic... To build Luke Skywalker, you'll probably have to buy into these specialties : Mechanic, Pilot, FS Emergent, Shien Expert (or another LS form), and probably another Force User spec.

Stop using the argument that with 1 spec you can do the same things that Han Solo can...

You can't !

Now back to the main topic...

The Jedi Initiate Universal Spec IS AWESOME !!!!!

That was the first thing that went through my mind when I first saw it... Let's see why...

With my first LS form spec, I've got a few Parry and Reflect, but not enough for my tastes... but if I buy into another form, i'll miss out on another "Force Rating" talent.... now with this spec, I got 1x Parry and 1x Reflect, and I got Improved Reflect as a bonus, without loosing a "Force Rating" talent,

Jedi careers start with less Career skills and I feel gimped a little, it will cost me more XP to raise those abilities that I feel my jedi needs... great I've got Well-Rounded ! and for a ridiculous cost of 5xp ! (just so you know .... Soldier Medic = 15xp ; Sentinel Shadow = 10xp ; Colonist Politico = 10xp)

I have less XP to spend on abilities because I want more Force powers and more Talents... hummm... let's get all the cool skills that can improve my skill checks like Uncanny Senses (5xp), Uncanny Reactions (5xp), Sense Emotions (10xp), Sense Danger (15xp), Touch of Fate (20xp), Force of Will (25xp)... and the cream of them all Intense Focus which is a FREE RANK ON EVERY SKILL CHECKS for 20xp... (just so you know... getting to Intense Focus on the FSE cost 95xp, in your unispec, it cost 50xp)

Now... I also have...

Confidence = less failed Fear checks, so less Conflict

Rapid Reaction = always useful, even with only 1 rank

Conditioned = not great but always useful in bad weather

Less desired talents are Knowledge Specialization and Second Wind... which could useful for some specs.

Now you've got a bunch of awesome talents that can easily compensate for the Force Users weaknesses, those talents usually cost less then what they cost elsewhere, and you can go straight to the best talents easily.... and you have both Force Rating AND Dedication...

This universal spec is a no brainer... if it was live, I would get it without even thinking... it is that good...
People talk about making the hard decisions.... you always have to make hard decisions when you buy into a spec... Marauder with Enforcer is a great combo.... but a one trick pony.... enjoy the ride.... YOU MADE the DECISION to have a one trick pony.... With this unispec, you don't have to make a hard decision because it answers ALL the Force Users Weaknesses.

That's why I think it should not be used.

Quality feedback, JP_JP, thanks.

Making Force & Destiny is a tricky job... If you want to have a well-rounded character, able to use force powers and wield a Lightsaber, you need to spread your XP around and probably buy into at least 2 specs (Niman + other), usually 3 specs (saber form + 2 others) to get Force Rating to 3....

I think the problem with Force Users is that some players expect their character to be able to do everything... Force Powers, Lightsaber, Abilities, etc...

You can't !

Let's take Han Solo... he's an awesome pilot, great gunslinger, scoundrel, mechanic, charming.... To build Han Solo, you'll probably have to buy into these specialties : Pilot, Scoundrel, Mechanic and Gunslinger... probably more.

Let's try Luke Skywalker... he's an awesome pilot, powerfull jedi, mechanic... To build Luke Skywalker, you'll probably have to buy into these specialties : Mechanic, Pilot, FS Emergent, Shien Expert (or another LS form), and probably another Force User spec.

Stop using the argument that with 1 spec you can do the same things that Han Solo can...

You can't !

No one said that you can make any of the iconic characters with simply one spec, only that the character concept--that is, the core principles that makes the character "feel" the way he/she is supposed to--is possible at inception. To claim otherwise is simply untrue.

Make a human Smuggler Scoundrel, take Rapid Reaction, Quick Strike, maybe a side step, then move over to Black Market Contacts, convincing demeanor, and hidden storage, and you're good. A decent spread in the obvious skills of charm, deception, ranged light, pilot space, etc and you're good to go. The human talents in mechanics and ranged heavy rounds it out. Take the obligation hit for the +10 xp (which makes sense narratively to reflect his problems with Jabba) to give you a little leeway in getting the skills/talents. You're pretty much able to emulate almost everything you see Han do in the first film and even the second. You FEEL like the archetypal Star Wars Smuggler right out the gate. Give the character the Knight Level 150 XP and you're essentially just rounding out and perfecting the character.

Having to get the additional specializations is obviously going to need to happen in order to round out the character. And this goes into the whole "duh, this spec is a no-brainer" in regards to Smog's spec. As if any player is NOT going to take additional specializations that compliments and enhances their character concepts. It's not even a case of min/maxing, power gaming, being a munchkin, or any other pejorative people wish to apply (which btw does nothing to advance the conversation). It's just common sense. People are going to take the paths of least resistance in order to get what they want. This comment of "making hard choices" keeps coming up as if this is some sort of universal truth to the system. There are no real "hard choices" when it comes to making non-force users. You have a concept, you then take the specializations, skills, and talents that compliment and advance this concept. Most of which are pretty much logically sound and laid out fairly easily for the non-force using careers.

The problem with force users is that in order to advance their concepts to actualize their concepts, they have to spend an inordinate amount of xp in order to to make the "Jedi concept" a reality. This isn't about making Jedi overpowered either. It's about making the concept a reality without having to shell out so much XP to do it. I hate SAGA edition, but hell, you at least sort of "felt" like a Jedi at creation in that system.

Like I said before, I don't exactly agree with Smog's spec 100%. But I do see what it's attempting to do, which is to try and fix some of the illogical inconsistencies that are currently there. For example: If I were to make a basic character who is of the Warrior Career, and then chose Shii-Cho Knight, I would totally be missing Reflect and Improved Reflect...from a lightsaber which based on the lore is supposed to be made for blaster deflection. If I had Smog's spec, I could at least bee-line to those talents without having to spend the extra XP to get another spec that has them, or have to change my whole character design and concept just to fit it in. It's an alleviation of the superfluous xp expenditures that is better spent on other things to fully realize a Jedi concept.

Making Force & Destiny is a tricky job... If you want to have a well-rounded character, able to use force powers and wield a Lightsaber, you need to spread your XP around and probably buy into at least 2 specs (Niman + other), usually 3 specs (saber form + 2 others) to get Force Rating to 3....

I think the problem with Force Users is that some players expect their character to be able to do everything... Force Powers, Lightsaber, Abilities, etc...

You can't !

Let's take Han Solo... he's an awesome pilot, great gunslinger, scoundrel, mechanic, charming.... To build Han Solo, you'll probably have to buy into these specialties : Pilot, Scoundrel, Mechanic and Gunslinger... probably more.

Let's try Luke Skywalker... he's an awesome pilot, powerfull jedi, mechanic... To build Luke Skywalker, you'll probably have to buy into these specialties : Mechanic, Pilot, FS Emergent, Shien Expert (or another LS form), and probably another Force User spec.

Stop using the argument that with 1 spec you can do the same things that Han Solo can...

You can't !

No one said that you can make any of the iconic characters with simply one spec, only that the character concept--that is, the core principles that makes the character "feel" the way he/she is supposed to--is possible at inception. To claim otherwise is simply untrue.

Make a human Smuggler Scoundrel, take Rapid Reaction, Quick Strike, maybe a side step, then move over to Black Market Contacts, convincing demeanor, and hidden storage, and you're good. A decent spread in the obvious skills of charm, deception, ranged light, pilot space, etc and you're good to go. The human talents in mechanics and ranged heavy rounds it out. Take the obligation hit for the +10 xp (which makes sense narratively to reflect his problems with Jabba) to give you a little leeway in getting the skills/talents. You're pretty much able to emulate almost everything you see Han do in the first film and even the second. You FEEL like the archetypal Star Wars Smuggler right out the gate. Give the character the Knight Level 150 XP and you're essentially just rounding out and perfecting the character.

Having to get the additional specializations is obviously going to need to happen in order to round out the character. And this goes into the whole "duh, this spec is a no-brainer" in regards to Smog's spec. As if any player is NOT going to take additional specializations that compliments and enhances their character concepts. It's not even a case of min/maxing, power gaming, being a munchkin, or any other pejorative people wish to apply (which btw does nothing to advance the conversation). It's just common sense. People are going to take the paths of least resistance in order to get what they want. This comment of "making hard choices" keeps coming up as if this is some sort of universal truth to the system. There are no real "hard choices" when it comes to making non-force users. You have a concept, you then take the specializations, skills, and talents that compliment and advance this concept. Most of which are pretty much logically sound and laid out fairly easily for the non-force using careers.

The problem with force users is that in order to advance their concepts to actualize their concepts, they have to spend an inordinate amount of xp in order to to make the "Jedi concept" a reality. This isn't about making Jedi overpowered either. It's about making the concept a reality without having to shell out so much XP to do it. I hate SAGA edition, but hell, you at least sort of "felt" like a Jedi at creation in that system.

Like I said before, I don't exactly agree with Smog's spec 100%. But I do see what it's attempting to do, which is to try and fix some of the illogical inconsistencies that are currently there. For example: If I were to make a basic character who is of the Warrior Career, and then chose Shii-Cho Knight, I would totally be missing Reflect and Improved Reflect...from a lightsaber which based on the lore is supposed to be made for blaster deflection. If I had Smog's spec, I could at least bee-line to those talents without having to spend the extra XP to get another spec that has them, or have to change my whole character design and concept just to fit it in. It's an alleviation of the superfluous xp expenditures that is better spent on other things to fully realize a Jedi concept.

That is because in order to have force use be balanced with other PCs the way FFG has done it is to make it XP intensive. If they did not we would have the Jedi being over powered problem we have had in every other version of Star wars. So if you want to have the force using characters be movie level Jedi give everyone 300XP or so. Done. Now you are playing at the movie levels. That is the way the game is designed so as to make the game balanced.

I am glad they have come up with a method that allows the different types of characters to play together.

If you go and listen to the Order 66 episode with Sam Stewart discussing Force and Destiny they said that yes you can play a movie level Jedi. It is just VERY xp expensive and it is that way on purpose.

You guys need to adjust your concept of what jedi are. You act like they are born fully formed with all the jedi powers. They are not. and I think if you look closely Jedi have a lot of XP under their belt at a very young age. Asokha was under estimated a lot by non Jedi because they thought young girl how much can she know? Well a lot because Jedi training is very intensive. As I said if you want fully realized Jedi give everyone a bunch of XP. If you make a tree like this you are going to end up with Jedi who steal the spotlight from the non jedi. As a tree like this is giving a whole lot of bang for its buck.

Well lets see.

You have a large part of the Force sensitive emergent.

A large part of Shien

A large part of Consular Sage.

So instead of spending 110 XP on hopping between these 3 specializations I can hop into 1 tree and get a large part of what one would want from these 3 trees in one specialization. You have just made being a Jedi a WHOLE LOT CHEAPER. Which is TOO good. It is not that any one talent is too good. It is that you grouped so much of what would cause specialty hopping into one place so as to make what FFG designed to be expensive so that JEDI are not the best class just very broadly capable. Other classes can do most of what you see with 1 or 2 trees. Jedi are more diffuse. They require a lot of XP to get to what we see in the movies.

All specializations are combinations of other specializations (minus their trademarks). I don't see how this logic makes any modicum of sense. Nearly every talent shared is also more expensive than what they would cost in their "profession" spec.

---

That is because in order to have force use be balanced with other PCs the way FFG has done it is to make it XP intensive. If they did not we would have the Jedi being over powered problem we have had in every other version of Star wars. So if you want to have the force using characters be movie level Jedi give everyone 300XP or so. Done. Now you are playing at the movie levels. That is the way the game is designed so as to make the game balanced.

I am glad they have come up with a method that allows the different types of characters to play together.

If you go and listen to the Order 66 episode with Sam Stewart discussing Force and Destiny they said that yes you can play a movie level Jedi. It is just VERY xp expensive and it is that way on purpose.

You guys need to adjust your concept of what jedi are. You act like they are born fully formed with all the jedi powers. They are not. and I think if you look closely Jedi have a lot of XP under their belt at a very young age. Asokha was under estimated a lot by non Jedi because they thought young girl how much can she know? Well a lot because Jedi training is very intensive. As I said if you want fully realized Jedi give everyone a bunch of XP. If you make a tree like this you are going to end up with Jedi who steal the spotlight from the non jedi. As a tree like this is giving a whole lot of bang for its buck.

We do not need to adjust our concept of what Jedi are. My concept of Jedi are -exactly- what I watch on screen. Ahsoka is right there, day 1, Improved Reflecting, Moving silhouette 2 objects, and showing herself to be educated and confident. Now, if you claim that stacking XP is the answer, fine. But do not tell me I have a warped sense of what Jedi "are." The evidence is right there for all of us to see. Her leaping dozens of feet at a time, reflecting blaster bolts into a droid's chest, and pulling a wall down around Anakin is not a matter of subjective perception: it happened in canonical source material and you can watch it anytime you would like. If you guys want to act like TCW and the Prequels didn't happen, that's fine. But in the greater scheme of the game and the Star Wars audience, they did happen, and they're equally as legitimate as Eps 4-6.

You're saying that in this system, the devs do not want anyone to be able to play a traditional Jedi in a game that starts with less than ~300xp. I agree a Padawan can very roughly be approximated at Knight level. But does no one think it's a problem that a campaign needs to use an alternate starting rule in order to play the earliest starting point (teenaged) of a core concept of the Star Wars universe? Does no one think that's a problem? They're Jedi. They're not some fringe, niche concept. When people think Star Wars, Jedi are going to be in the top 3 things that immediately comes to mind.

I agree that in the Dark Times and Galactic Civil War eras, that the specs we have now make perfect sense. I think it works great. But what are FFG's eventual plans for other Eras -- nearly every other Era -- where Jedi are incredibly common. And not just cobbled together, self-trained "Jedi." Fully trained, Academy-raised Jedi of the Order. Are they going to tell GMs in these campaigns to start at 300xp? If so, if that's what you guys think the Devs are planning, I can deal with that. I'm just trying to get some sense of what the plans are for the future when the kinds of Jedi I'm talking about are going to need defined.

We will obviously eventually get more Era sourcebooks and probably a Jedi splatbook. What do you guys think will be in it? Different Careers? More Specializations? Will they be "epic" in nature and come with a GM warning that they're only for high powered campaigns? I'm genuinely curious what you guys think they will do.

Also, how do you think mixed groups are going to work in this case. You're at 400xp and your Jedi Knight is finally feeling true to concept. Meanwhile, the mundanes in your party are doing what? Filling in extra specializations and making themselves more well rounded? Possibly getting bored with their characters because they've been playing-to-concept from day 1? Again, I am genuinely asking because our group has not played a high-XP game.

We do not need to adjust our concept of what Jedi are. My concept of Jedi are -exactly- what I watch on screen. Ahsoka is right there, day 1, Improved Reflecting, Moving silhouette 2 objects, and showing herself to be educated and confident. Now, if you claim that stacking XP is the answer, fine. But do not tell me I have a warped sense of what Jedi "are." The evidence is right there for all of us to see. Her leaping dozens of feet at a time, reflecting blaster bolts into a droid's chest, and pulling a wall down around Anakin is not a matter of subjective perception: it happened in canonical source material and you can watch it anytime you would like. If you guys want to act like TCW and the Prequels didn't happen, that's fine. But in the greater scheme of the game and the Star Wars audience, they did happen, and they're equally as legitimate as Eps 4-6.

When a student scores 100% at his final exam, do you see every other student asking to get 100% too because one scored that high ??? It's like wanting to be as strong as Ahsoka when she was a prodigy, a exceptionally talented padawan. Even Anakin says so... Yoda didn't pair Ahsoka with Anakin for nothing, it's to offer Anakin a mirror to his own talents...

You can't ask your character to be able to do everything Ahsoka or Anakin or Obi-wan or Yoda could do... because they are exceptionally talented jedis, prodigies of their time... no wonders why they shaped the events on the galactic scale.

I think the main problem here is that some people have flawed views of how their character should work mechanically.

Someone once said that if you take the Scoundrel spec and buy a few talents and some piloting(space) ranks, you'll be able to emulate what Han Solo could do on-screen.... Another one could have proposed to take the Pilot spec and buy a few talents and some Deception, Ranged(Light) ranks, and voilà! With the EotE and AoR specs, you didn't think you needed some talents to be awesome... and what you think you needed changed from player to player... With F&D, some players think they need everything...

You DON'T need to have Reflect to deflect blasters bolts, nor do you need Parry to stop an opponent's blade... A character with some Ranged/Melee defense could easily do that... Let's take a FSEx with Sixth Sense, with Armored Robes and all the Defensive upgrades from the force power Sense... that would raise the difficulty to hit him at range to RRBB. Now a Storm Trooper shoots him with GGG... he gets 1 Fail and 3 Threats... The Jedi deflect his blasters bolts and even sends one back at the Storm Trooper, doing 3 strain (wounds for minions)... Without even Reflect or Improved Reflect, my jedi did what some ppl want their Jedi to do...

Just because there is a power named Reflect or Improved Reflect or Touch of Faith doesn't mean every jedi has it, or needs it to do like "in the movies"... Use your imagination in this narrative focused RPG and have some fun...

On another topic....

My RPG group has near 400xp down their sleeve and I feel that the jedi character is not the strongest one by far... She is quite competent and valuable, but the Bounty Hunter is much deadlier in combat.... Also, at 400xp, all my players still have a lot of skills and talent they are aiming for to flesh out their character... I believe the balance is good.

On another topic...

The problem you could point out is that Improved Reflect is in only one spec, Shien Expert... which means that if you want this talent, you can only buy this spec... I would find it more appealing to build a Shii-Cho universal spec and replace this one in the Warrior Career with another Form like Juyo / Vaapad.

On this topic...

I'm still waiting to read a counter-argument for my last post saying that this Unispec answers all the jedi weaknesses.

Kudos!

Your concept is yours. It may be shared by some but not by everyone. Movies are entertaining and all but tend to ascribe abilities to meet the plot. This is a role-playing game inspired by Star Wars, not a simulation. It is still a game at heart so there needs to be balance or as close as the designers can get it. And it is not a game of Jedi but of Force users. You can play Jedi but they are not called out specifically.

The designers took a concept that was already considered a feature and made it a built-in feature for conceptualizing Force-users. The fact that you can multispec. Many of us are unsurprised and actually expected this. Force-users will branch by nature to gain ability but will also gain broader ability just as the non-Force users by branching out. So while not a necessity for early careers, it is more in use here. Not a bad thing as far as I'm concerned.

The younglings in season 5 likely have a fair amount of XP from their training. As we keep saying just give more XP and you get what you want.

Sure, you can do that, I just don't think it works well mechanically compared to other careers.

And here you are putting all the good stuff from several trees in one greatly reducing the tree hopping that FFG put in as a requirement to be a well rounded force user.

"All the good stuff"? Again, you imply that all the other trees have crap in them, and not only that, you think that's a great game design. In any case, I disagree, the other trees don't have crap in them, they are just more focused.

And let's be clear about the extent of "well-rounded": this tree merely dips toes. It doesn't dive into anything (with the possible exception of Imp.Reflect, but that's a different discussion). The cross-over between this and other trees is minimal, effectively no more or less than you'd get by starting with an F&D career and then delving into other trees. For the few talents that do cross over to a specific second tree, many more do not...they remain untapped and undeveloped, and likely will remain so until the player picks a third or fourth tree. And by the time a Force user is on their third tree (with suitable investment in Powers), any of the other careers will be well into their fourth and suitably equivalent in power and ability.

One could argue that the lack of focus is a detriment. If you never take another tree with Second Wind, you end up with a Talent that has a very limited benefit. However, it conveys significant flavour, which is the core emphasis here.

More capability takes more XP. Other careers are able to focus on what they do more. jedi have a very broad range of abilities that take a fair amount of XP.

You have a warped view of what Jedi can do. It is like you are looking at Michael Jordan and then expecting all basketball players to be like Michael Jordan even the high school players...

Training is a type of experience. Jedi get a LOT of training from a young age. Republic era Jedi will have a lot of XP when they are young.

I'm still waiting to read a counter-argument for my last post saying that this Unispec answers all the jedi weaknesses.

I think you raised some good points and included some good details and comparisons. Still pondering. I do think it's partly a problem with the structure. But it may be necessary to move some of the cheaper talents up a row, and replace them with less potent things.

All that said, I disagree that this "answers all the jedi weaknesses". If you work through this spec you will come out a generalist, with a scattering of minimal benefits. If you then take a spec that focusses on things like Parry and Reflect, well, you still paid the cost to get there, and a PC that went through two specs that had that focus would still be much more capable in that area. It's still a trade off.

Just because there is a power named Reflect or Improved Reflect or Touch of Faith doesn't mean every jedi has it, or needs it to do like "in the movies"... Use your imagination in this narrative focused RPG and have some fun...

As far as Imp.Reflect goes, then what good is it in the rules? Why pay XP for something you can replicate with simple dice rolls? You can cause Strain on anybody with threats, which will take someone down sometimes more quickly that with Wounds. So it's not a problem of "use your imagination" it's a problem of adjudicating the rules as given without stepping on the toes of existing Talents.

I'm still waiting to read a counter-argument for my last post saying that this Unispec answers all the jedi weaknesses.

I think you raised some good points and included some good details and comparisons. Still pondering. I do think it's partly a problem with the structure. But it may be necessary to move some of the cheaper talents up a row, and replace them with less potent things.

All that said, I disagree that this "answers all the jedi weaknesses". If you work through this spec you will come out a generalist, with a scattering of minimal benefits. If you then take a spec that focusses on things like Parry and Reflect, well, you still paid the cost to get there, and a PC that went through two specs that had that focus would still be much more capable in that area. It's still a trade off.

Just because there is a power named Reflect or Improved Reflect or Touch of Faith doesn't mean every jedi has it, or needs it to do like "in the movies"... Use your imagination in this narrative focused RPG and have some fun...

As far as Imp.Reflect goes, then what good is it in the rules? Why pay XP for something you can replicate with simple dice rolls? You can cause Strain on anybody with threats, which will take someone down sometimes more quickly that with Wounds. So it's not a problem of "use your imagination" it's a problem of adjudicating the rules as given without stepping on the toes of existing Talents.

I actually started ruling that Improved Reflect works like that normally, just because gathering the three threat or the despair is significant enough, and narratively appropriate in this case. I think it's more of a problem with the current iteration being rather lackluster.

I'm still waiting to read a counter-argument for my last post saying that this Unispec answers all the jedi weaknesses.

I think you raised some good points and included some good details and comparisons. Still pondering. I do think it's partly a problem with the structure. But it may be necessary to move some of the cheaper talents up a row, and replace them with less potent things.

All that said, I disagree that this "answers all the jedi weaknesses". If you work through this spec you will come out a generalist, with a scattering of minimal benefits. If you then take a spec that focusses on things like Parry and Reflect, well, you still paid the cost to get there, and a PC that went through two specs that had that focus would still be much more capable in that area. It's still a trade off.

Just because there is a power named Reflect or Improved Reflect or Touch of Faith doesn't mean every jedi has it, or needs it to do like "in the movies"... Use your imagination in this narrative focused RPG and have some fun...

As far as Imp.Reflect goes, then what good is it in the rules? Why pay XP for something you can replicate with simple dice rolls? You can cause Strain on anybody with threats, which will take someone down sometimes more quickly that with Wounds. So it's not a problem of "use your imagination" it's a problem of adjudicating the rules as given without stepping on the toes of existing Talents.

I actually started ruling that Improved Reflect works like that normally, just because gathering the three threat or the despair is significant enough, and narratively appropriate in this case. I think it's more of a problem with the current iteration being rather lackluster.

To whafrog :

I'm talking about character creation weakness (less career skills and ability points) and progression weakness (more spread out : abilities / talents / force powers ; parry/reflect specs vs force rating specs) ... and that unispec is the answer for those weaknesses.

To whafrog and Deepeyes357 :

I know Improved Reflect is a little lackluster... maybe it could be changed/improved to make it better, more reliable... but it is not the main topic of this tread.

An Idea I just had would be to make it reflect the damage absorbed by Reflect/Parry, making that Improved versions scale with the original version (damage reflected would bypass soak). But you'd need to change it's trigger to something more manageable and less random then 3 treats or 1 despair since its base power output has been nerfed. A good trigger could be to score more treats then the targets Range/Melee defense.

Exemple 1 : Minion group (with 0 Range Defense) targets Jedi Bob who has 3 ranks of Reflect and Improved Reflect. They hit Jedi Bob and inflict 11 damage. Jedi Bob takes 3 strain and activates Reflect, lowering damage received by 5, since he has Improved Reflect, he needs 0 treat to reflect 5 points of damage onto the Minion group. So he suffers 6 damage minus soak while Minion group suffers 5 unsoakable damage.

Exemple 2 : Rival dark jedi (with 2 Melee Defense) targets Jedi Bob who has 3 ranks of Parry and Improved Parry. RDJ hits Jedi Bob and inflict 12 damages. Jedi Bob takes 3 strain and activates Parry, lowering damage received by 5. Unfortunately, RDJ needed 2 treat to trigger Improved Parry and suffer 5 unsoakable damage.

What do you guys think ?