Measuring bans cause way more issues with opportunities for cheating than they're worth.
That must be why Warmachine is such a terrible game.
War machine does have an issue with shady tournament play, but none of it stems from the pressuring ban.
Autocorrect get the better of this one?
That it did, that it did.
Can you be more specific? In my experience I see almost no pre-measuring from X-Wing players. I don't see people measuring their distance for movement before setting their dials. I don't see legal boosts or barrel rolls being taken back once the template is down, I see the target lock rule being followed, and I don't see people pre-measuring shooting or arcs in the movement phase or when that ship isn't shooting.Having come to this game from a Warhammer background, I've always been super-conscious of the legalities of pre-measuring ranges and/or arcs.
As far as I understand the rulebook and FAQ for X-Wing, pre-measuring is completely illegal. You can't check range until you have firmly declared a game action that requires the range to be checked.
?
One note: When you select one of your ships to shoot, you are allowed to check that ships range and arcs to all enemy ships. Is this the situation you're referring to?
I've seen people do it at the end of their maneuver to check whether they're in range of an enemy (which would give them information they're not technically supposed to have and could influence them taking a defensive action).
However, the situation I've seen most often is the one you describe. I was under the impression that you couldn't measure until you declared a shot, rather than being able to measure to all potential targets before settling on an ideal choice.
I dont think measuring for an obvious impossible target lock is cheating. Ill admit to actually doing it, although I dont set the template down next to another ship. Now one thing I have a problem with is when a player (typically a swarm player) will measure each one of his ships before firing at a target. I was playing a guy who did this during a nationals game. But the thing that gets under my skin the most is when a ship only has one shot, and your opponent takes 30+ seconds to decide if he wants to shoot or not.
I dont think measuring for an obvious impossible target lock is cheating. Ill admit to actually doing it, although I dont set the template down next to another ship. Now one thing I have a problem with is when a player (typically a swarm player) will measure each one of his ships before firing at a target. I was playing a guy who did this during a nationals game. But the thing that gets under my skin the most is when a ship only has one shot, and your opponent takes 30+ seconds to decide if he wants to shoot or not.
That is actually against the rules, once a ship activates for firing is the only time you can measure. So basically how he did that is he skipped firing with each of the ships he checked range and didn't fire with.
Every action has a reaction, Now of course people asked me why I have checked range for a target lock when I already know that they are within the range 3 band. I still want to know what weapons I can use and if there is an defense/attack bonus, check arc. SO I declare target lock at a ship close to my ship to see if it is in range 1 or 2. I still get looks and ask "Why you measuring? You know it is within range"
Well yes, that's the point. You're exploiting the gray area (if not actually cheating) where you aren't allowed to measure for something but a different and legal measurement allows you to "accidentally" place the ruler in such a way that you gain the information you aren't allowed to measure directly. Because you're willing to bend the rules and "accidentally" place the ruler in a way that gives you the information you really want you gain an advantage over a player who only measures the specific thing they're allowed to measure and doesn't wave the ruler around "carelessly" to check a few other things in the process.
The sad thing is that as much as GW sucks at writing good rules they were able to figure out that all the measuring ban did was give an advantage to cheaters at the expense of the few honest players. It's annoying that FFG can't figure out the same thing and just change the rules to let you measure at any time.
So I know you say measuring for a ship that is across the board is pure exploitation. But measuring a ship inside range 1-3 is partial exploitation? That's what you should be doing and what you are supposed to do in the rules. The problem is that people have their own expatiation of the rules but this is not a game that they made so they don't make the rules. So when someone plays according to rules that you disagree with it isn't them that has a problem with rules acting all cheesy it is YOU who has a problem with the rules.
Thus why I never liked rule lawyering, it isn't enough to exploit the rules they even try to change/bend the rules in order to fit to how they think the game should be played.
Edited by MarinealverI have no idea how the pre measuring rules in x-wing work, after a year and a half of playing. I generally let my opponents do whatever. Maybe that loses me games.
Outside of the combat phase you are only supposed to measure if you are doing an action or an ability that has a range declared on it, such as target lock or swarm tactics. During the combat phase which ever ship is active in combat (making an attack) can then measure to see all targets within range and in arc then choose which ship to attack.
Not sure why if there is a rule there has to be cheating?
Because that's what happened in earlier editions of 40k that had a similar "no measuring without permission" rule. Cheating was incredibly common, and the rule only punished the few honest players. And I seriously doubt X-Wing players are that much more honest.
So I know you say measuring for a ship that is across the board is pure exploitation.
Yes. If you're placing the range ruler on the table to "check range for a target lock" against a ship that is five range ruler lengths away (IOW, even the worst judge of distance knows it is out of range) then I don't believe for a moment that you're really using that range ruler to verify a legal range. Everyone knows that you're really just using the "target lock check" as an excuse to put the ruler on the table and "accidentally" line it up with the thing you really want to measure.
But measuring a ship inside range 1-3 is partial exploitation?
That depends. Is it a legitimate question of whether you're within range? Sure, measure it, and then you're committed to your target lock if you are in range. Is the ship one base length away (IOW, clearly within target lock range) and you "accidentally" aligned the ruler with the arc on one of my ships? You're cheating and you know it.
That's what you should be doing and what you are supposed to do in the rules.
That's not what the rules say. They say "no premeasuring", not "no premeasuring unless you can be subtle about it and premeasure while pretending to do something else". This isn't a case of using a rule that I don't like, it's a case of cheating and using the rules as nothing more than plausible deniability for your cheating.
The more things change, the more they stay the same.
The more things change, the more they stay the same.
Because Premeasuring = loaded dice?
Because Premeasuring = loaded dice?The more things change, the more they stay the same.
Because some people are just plain bad at judging the rules of X-Wing, and quick to accuse others of cheating for using rules they disapprove of personally.
Edited by WonderWAAAGH
Not sure why if there is a rule there has to be cheating?
Because that's what happened in earlier editions of 40k that had a similar "no measuring without permission" rule. Cheating was incredibly common, and the rule only punished the few honest players. And I seriously doubt X-Wing players are that much more honest.
Man, you are extremely negative and cynical. Not everyone out there is trying to lie and cheat. I've TOed a few tournaments and this never has been a problem. Once a person says that they shouldn't take advantage of it, it usually enough to stop them. Only one person had tried this at regionals and I asked if they mind not doing it and it stopped after the first attempt. I don't see how this punishes anyone. Maybe instead of stewing in your own anger and resentment towards the world, you should voice your concerns to your opponent, you might be surprised at the outcome. Heck you might even enjoy the game more.
So in Warhammer, I was one of those people who would hit your unit dead center with a trebuchet every time, because I worked on my skill of estimating distance. Now, everyone hits everyone's units dead center because you just measure exactly how far you need, and it no longer feels satisfying to successfully score a hit. The 'no pre-measurement' rules is important to the game.
Imagine if you could drop down that range ruler whenever you felt like it in an X-Wing match. Do I fit here if I go 2 forward? Let me just measure that.. yep! If I take a 2 sharp and he does a 3 straight, will we be within shooting range? Let me just measure that... nope! Remember how everyone went crazy when Paul Heaver pulled off his 4 straight asteroid-dodging maneuver that essentially won him the match? Tell me the game is better off without that tension.
There should be no pre-measurement. That some people cheat is immaterial. If you think someone is waving their ruler around to get an advantage, call the TO like you would for any other infraction - but don't change the fundamental rules of the game.
So in Warhammer, I was one of those people who would hit your unit dead center with a trebuchet every time, because I worked on my skill of estimating distance. Now, everyone hits everyone's units dead center because you just measure exactly how far you need, and it no longer feels satisfying to successfully score a hit. The 'no pre-measurement' rules is important to the game.
Imagine if you could drop down that range ruler whenever you felt like it in an X-Wing match. Do I fit here if I go 2 forward? Let me just measure that.. yep! If I take a 2 sharp and he does a 3 straight, will we be within shooting range? Let me just measure that... nope! Remember how everyone went crazy when Paul Heaver pulled off his 4 straight asteroid-dodging maneuver that essentially won him the match? Tell me the game is better off without that tension.
There should be no pre-measurement. That some people cheat is immaterial. If you think someone is waving their ruler around to get an advantage, call the TO like you would for any other infraction - but don't change the fundamental rules of the game.
I would definitely say for movement that there should be no per-measuring, but shooting I feel is slightly better. The positions of the ships are locked in now anyway.
but shooting I feel is slightly better. The positions of the ships are locked in now anyway.
I'm not sure if I'm just misreading something or people don't seem to understand the rules... That's not aimed at you Jimmius btw. Just quoting you as a place to start.
First off there's a difference between the Standard Rules and Competitive Play rules.
In the standard rules you can premeasure a number of things you can't in the competitive play rules. For example you can premeasure barrel rolls, boosts and decloaks. You can also if you have the Target Lock action, check the range to every ship on the board really, to see if they're in range of a TL before being committed to that action.
What you can't do in either set of rules is premeasure maneuvers, or check arc's unless you're about to make an attack.
During the attack phase, the attacker can check the range and arc to any enemy ship on the board this is true under either set of rules. Naturally most people don't bother measuring to ships that are clearly out of range. But you can check the range from the Active ship to any enemy ship.
When a ship becomes the active ship during the combat phase, the active player can measure range from the active ship to any enemy ships before declaring one as its target.
What you can't do in either set of rules is premeasure maneuvers, or check arc's unless you're about to make an attack.During the attack phase, the attacker can check the range and arc to any enemy ship on the board this is true under either set of rules. Naturally most people don't bother measuring to ships that are clearly out of range. But you can check the range from the Active ship to any enemy ship.
Oh. I've been playing by the competitive rules then. We (my group and I) only allow 'premeasuring' before we declare the target of our attack, which I know realise isn't even breaking a rule (we used to play 40k a lot before FFG won us over by not being GW). We never premeasure any action or maneuver.
Oh. I've been playing by the competitive rules then.
A lot, maybe even most do. Playing by the standard rules can lead to a mindset that doesn't work if you're playing in a tournament. If you get used to measuring for a barrel roll every time, before you decide which side to go, you might find that bites you in the butt if you were to play in a tournament where you can't do that.
So in Warhammer, I was one of those people who would hit your unit dead center with a trebuchet every time, because I worked on my skill of estimating distance. Now, everyone hits everyone's units dead center because you just measure exactly how far you need, and it no longer feels satisfying to successfully score a hit. The 'no pre-measurement' rules is important to the game.
Imagine if you could drop down that range ruler whenever you felt like it in an X-Wing match. Do I fit here if I go 2 forward? Let me just measure that.. yep! If I take a 2 sharp and he does a 3 straight, will we be within shooting range? Let me just measure that... nope! Remember how everyone went crazy when Paul Heaver pulled off his 4 straight asteroid-dodging maneuver that essentially won him the match? Tell me the game is better off without that tension.
There should be no pre-measurement. That some people cheat is immaterial. If you think someone is waving their ruler around to get an advantage, call the TO like you would for any other infraction - but don't change the fundamental rules of the game.
Good for you but this is not Warhammer, and they put in premeasuring in Warhammer already even with fantasy (it is compensated by bounce effects and scatter dice). If you say there should be no premeasuring then that means you can only use the range ruler after you declared a target and an attack and if it is not in arc or say range 1 when using a 2-3 attack then it is like landing on an asteroid (you don't get to attack). If you want to do some sort of an ironman match with those kind of house rules then be my guest but you won't find me playing that game with those rules in place.
Now as for the game there are times when you are supposed to measure/premeasure (and should even if it seems a little redundant) and times when you can't and it is stated in the rules what are those times. The main problem here is the idea or statement "premeasuring is for noobs" or only players of lesser skill need to premeasure. This is just another example belittlement of other players who are playing by the rules that some people disagree with.
Edited by MarinealverWhere does it say in these rules that you can't measure per standard rules?
http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffg_content/x-wing/support/faq/X-Wing-Tournament-Rules.pdf
This says, you declare the barrel roll, measure, if you can, you must, and that looks like 'standard rules' to me
http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffg_content/x-wing/support/faq/X-Wing-FAQ-low-res.pdf
(seriously asking - I don't see it)
Edited by nathankc(seriously asking - I don't see it)
Because the section you're looking at is in the Competitive Play rules section. The paragraph under that header says...
At competitive and premier events, it is critical to resolve maneuvers, perform actions, and measure range in a strict and defined sequence.
Then there's this Q&A on page 17...
Q:
When a player wishes to perform a boost action, can he measure to see if his ship can perform a boost before committing to this action (similar to a barrel roll)?
A:
Yes. In competitive and premier events, the player must declare the direction before attempting the maneuver (see “Competitive Play” on page 9).
So the answer is yes, you can in fact measure before committing to the action. Unless you're using the Competitive rules.
Also if you look at the Core Rule, page 8 you find this.
The player may measure to see if his ship can perform a barrel roll before committing to this action.
Part of what makes it confusing perhaps, is that the current FAQ was rewritten and dropped all the text that was there about how the Competitive Rules Addendum was added on to be used at tournament level events.
The other link you have is to the tournament FAQ, which quite naturally assumes you're playing by the Competitive Rules.
Edited by VanorDMWerid - there are only 4 pages on the tournament rules link that I posted. Where is this competitive rules book with 17 pages you speak of?
The second link I posted was just the standard FAQ (at least I presume because there was no indication given as to 'standard' vs 'competitive') on this page:
http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_minisite_sec.asp?eidm=174&esem=4
First link I posted is listed as: "Star Wars: X-Wing Miniatures Game official Tournament Rules"
The second link is listed as: "Star Wars: X-Wing Miniatures Game official FAQ"
So maybe that is part of the problem right there....if there are extra rules laying about
Edited by nathankcSo maybe that is part of the problem right there....if there are extra rules laying about
Let me explain... No there is no time let me sum up.
Watched the Princess Bride the other day. 
There's 3 different rules documents out there, not including the Epic stuff.
There's the Core Rules
There's the FAQ
Then there's the Tournament rules
The core rules is the booklet that came in the Core set, it has to my knowledge never been updated. The FAQ is what they update with new rules, or changes to rules. The Competitive Rules section you mentioned is in the FAQ. The Tournament Rules is pretty much only about how to run a tournament itself.
There's effectively two sets of rules, Standard Rules and Competitive Rules, the competitive ones are a bit more strict, you can't for example measure your barrel roll, before committing to it, the changes to the rules are all listed in the Competitive Play section of the FAQ. If you are not playing by the Competitive Rules, because you're playing a friendly game and haven't agreed to use them. Then anything listed under the Competitive Rules section of the FAQ is not in effect.
Again most people tend to play with the competitive rules in effect, so some people may have never ever played with standard rules at all.
so i guess my question is where are the competitive rules written down so one can confirm things that are said about it? I've only ever seen the three documents listed above.
I'm looking for an "oh! you mean this gate key" moment
so i guess my question is where are the competitive rules written down so one can confirm things that are said about it?
in the FAQ page 17 is the Competitive Rules section.
Isn't there a rule that says if you declare a target lock action and the ship you declare it on is out of range then you have to take it on another ship in range? And that you only get to ditch the TL if no enemy ships are in range? Or did I make that up?
EDIT: Never mind, made it up.
Edited by AtillaTheFunGot it! Thanks!