Having come to this game from a Warhammer background, I've always been super-conscious of the legalities of pre-measuring ranges and/or arcs.

For those unfamiliar with Warhammer, up until a few editions ago, pre-measuring of any kind was explicitly forbidden by the rules. Eventually the rule was flipped on it's head, and pre-measuring became explicitly legal. It was a big change to the way the game plays, but was fairly well-received by most players.

As far as I understand the rulebook and FAQ for X-Wing, pre-measuring is completely illegal. You can't check range until you have firmly declared a game action that requires the range to be checked. Yet I still see it happening all the time, even during competitive events, often by players who I know are serious dudes who play a lot, and have tourney or even regional wins under their belts. I even noticed it happening semi-regularly during the Worlds on the live streams of games.

So is this a rule people are just unfamiliar with, or are players making a conscious decision to ignore the rule during casual play (which might then slip into their competitive outings)?

And this is exactly why banning measuring is a stupid idea and you should be allowed to measure whatever range/arc you want at any time. All a ban does is reward the cheaters and the people who are willing to get into gray areas like "checking range for a target lock" against a ship that is clearly out of range so that you can put the range ruler in the general area and confirm your range to a different ship.

At world's I had a guy who would move, pull out his range ruler, measure how far everything was then would focus or evade. After the 2nd time I politely told him that he can't do that unless he is trying to target lock. He went on and target locked that turn and didn't do it anymore.

All it takes is a polite caution to people who pre measure without taking target lock. As for attempting a target lock while out of range, I have never seen anyone really benefit from that. Most of the time, they stay out of range so it is really a non issue for me.

You can't check range until you have firmly declared a game action that requires the range to be checked.

That is only true for competitive rules. Under the standard rules you aren't locked into an action just because you check the range.

I can for example check the range to every ship on the board to see if they're in TL range or not, then focus. This is completely legal under the standard rules.

Under the competitive rules you can only do that if you declare a TL and then must TL if able.

As for attempting a target lock while out of range, I have never seen anyone really benefit from that.

Then you probably haven't been paying much attention. Let's say I have an a-wing with PTL. If I'm not going to be shooting or shot at this turn I want to take a single action (probably a target lock for a future turn) and remain stress-free so that I have my full dial available next turn. If I'm going to be shot at I want to use PTL and get my double action, probably focus + evade. Now let's say I'm in arc of a ship at long range, but I'm not sure if it's range 3 (in which case I want to use PTL) or out of range (I don't). I can't measure range to the ship I'm worried about without committing to a target lock if I'm in range, but what I CAN do is attempt to target lock a ship that is clearly out of range (so no danger of being committed to the wrong action), place the range ruler so that it tells me the range to the ship I'm worried about, fail to lock the clearly-out-of-range ship, and go back to choosing an action normally. I've gained information that is technically legal but definitely against the spirit of the "no measuring" rule.

The end state is that he is still out of range in your example. And now both players know that. Again no benefit (as perceived by me). A wings with PtL really don't scare me either though that is a moot point. Also, considering he would have to target lock anyone who was in range during a tournament if he did have one available, I might get the benefit of eating one of his actions. With action economy being so important, I would be much more willing to allow him to TL unintentionally on someone else than worry if he is going to stay out of range of my next attack. Again, I don't perceive it as a benefit.

I pay attention to things like that during a game too, information like a range check goes both ways considering the ruler has to be displayed.

People honestly just don't know. I'll say something at tournaments, but I've never had anyone continue to do it. There are whole x-wing groups that just don't know about this rule.

Having come to this game from a Warhammer background, I've always been super-conscious of the legalities of pre-measuring ranges and/or arcs.

As far as I understand the rulebook and FAQ for X-Wing, pre-measuring is completely illegal. You can't check range until you have firmly declared a game action that requires the range to be checked.

?

One note: When you select one of your ships to shoot, you are allowed to check that ships range and arcs to all enemy ships. Is this the situation you're referring to?

The end state is that he is still out of range in your example.

Yes, but go back and read the example again. I might still be out of range, but there's a big difference between being out of range with no stress and being out of range with a stress token because I had to use PTL to focus + evade just in case we were in range. I've gained information that I shouldn't have by the spirit of the rule and been able to choose my actions based on that information.

A wings with PtL really don't scare me either though that is a moot point.

Then replace the a-wing with some other ship, that was just an obvious example. It's very easy to imagine situations where attempting to measure for something you know is going to fail gives you extra information to help with the real decision.

Let's look at a 40k example (since this kind of thing was incredibly common in older editions of 40k): in 5th edition 40k once you declared a target for a unit's shooting you were committed to that target, and if you were out of range you just lost that turn's shooting and were not allowed to change to a different target. So let's say I have a unit with 12" range and a target that is roughly 12" away. Instead of taking the chance of losing my shooting I first declare a shot against the target with another unit. Even though their guns have 72" range I still carefully measure the exact distance, making sure that I place the ruler near the first unit and "accidentally" check how far it is from its target. Now if I know I'm within 12" I shoot my primary target without any danger of losing shots, if I'm outside 12" I switch to a different target. Instead of a gamble on being within 12" I have certainty.

Also, considering he would have to target lock anyone who was in range during a tournament if he did have one available, I might get the benefit of eating one of his actions.

That's not how the rules work. You declare a target lock against a specific ship, and if you are not in range you go back to the "choose action" step and are not committed to a target lock action. So if I declare a target lock against a ship that is clearly out of range all that happens is I "accidentally" wave the range ruler around near some other models, find that I'm out of range of my declared target (which I already knew), and then decide to focus instead.

(Other actions work the same way. If you barrel roll left and fail you aren't required to barrel roll right instead, your choice of barrel roll for your action is cleared and you choose your action again. This could potentially be a barrel roll to the right, but you aren't obligated to choose it again.)

I pay attention to things like that during a game too, information like a range check goes both ways considering the ruler has to be displayed.

Sure, but the information I'm trying to get is not the information that I'm telling you I'm getting. I have to tell you that the ship on the other side of the table is out of range (which we both already knew), I'm not going to tell you that while I was pointlessly putting the range ruler on the table to "find out" I just happened to notice that one of your other ships was outside range 3 of Wedge so I'd better boost closer to get a shot.

And this is exactly why banning measuring is a stupid idea and you should be allowed to measure whatever range/arc you want at any time. All a ban does is reward the cheaters and the people who are willing to get into gray areas like "checking range for a target lock" against a ship that is clearly out of range so that you can put the range ruler in the general area and confirm your range to a different ship.

Every action has a reaction, Now of course people asked me why I have checked range for a target lock when I already know that they are within the range 3 band. I still want to know what weapons I can use and if there is an defense/attack bonus, check arc. SO I declare target lock at a ship close to my ship to see if it is in range 1 or 2. I still get looks and ask "Why you measuring? You know it is within range"

Every action has a reaction, Now of course people asked me why I have checked range for a target lock when I already know that they are within the range 3 band. I still want to know what weapons I can use and if there is an defense/attack bonus, check arc. SO I declare target lock at a ship close to my ship to see if it is in range 1 or 2. I still get looks and ask "Why you measuring? You know it is within range"

Well yes, that's the point. You're exploiting the gray area (if not actually cheating) where you aren't allowed to measure for something but a different and legal measurement allows you to "accidentally" place the ruler in such a way that you gain the information you aren't allowed to measure directly. Because you're willing to bend the rules and "accidentally" place the ruler in a way that gives you the information you really want you gain an advantage over a player who only measures the specific thing they're allowed to measure and doesn't wave the ruler around "carelessly" to check a few other things in the process.

The sad thing is that as much as GW sucks at writing good rules they were able to figure out that all the measuring ban did was give an advantage to cheaters at the expense of the few honest players. It's annoying that FFG can't figure out the same thing and just change the rules to let you measure at any time.

If you have a targeting computer on your ship (you can use the TL action) you've paid for that ability. It's either already built into the ship cost, or it's been added as a modification. Because a TL computer can be added to any ship through a modification, anyone could do what you are suggesting with the TL action. The ability to attempt a TL and get a free range check from one area to another has been paid for. Those 2 points for the TL computer could have been spent on a better pilot or more PS, or anything. An academy tie fighter can't pull that trick, because they haven't paid for that ability. But, any Xwing already has that cost paid, so they can pull that trick. Even then it's not a perfect trick. The range ruler must be placed from the ship attempting the lock to the ship it's attempting to lock. If there are two enemy ships in line from each other and you attempt to TL the ship farthest away, you can discern the range from the front one. But if you pull that trick, you better be sure that the far ship is NOT in TL range. Sure, you could reckon some information from another ship close to the TL attempting ship, but it's far from perfect information.

Does it seem a little outside the bounds of the rules? Sure, but, it is a legal trick within the rules, and anyone doing it has paid to do it with valuable squad points. If the TC Computer is worth 2 points, and someone has 4 rebel ships, they've spent 8 points to try to pull off that trick. That's a lot of points. It's the difference between a rookie and Wedge.

Peregrine's got a point in that the Range Ruler should be fair game. I think the stance on barrels, boosts and decloaks (you can't premeasure unless you commit to that action) works well though.

Oh, or you know can tell the person if they are doing it intentionally for range tracking purpose that they can stop. Get a judge over if you believe if they are abusing it, it will stop. On the other hand, if you are good enough you really won't be needing to resort to such tactics. Its not hard to eyeball the range ruler, its 7.5 bases long.

They aren't going to change this because at high level of play its a non issue.

The range ruler must be placed from the ship attempting the lock to the ship it's attempting to lock.

You're missing the point here. The ship you're "trying to check range to" doesn't matter, it's nothing more than an excuse to put the range ruler on the table without obviously cheating. You don't measure legitimately and then happen to gain some extra information, you "accidentally" move the range ruler through the area you want to measure as you're placing it on the table. Or you "realize that you need to hold this ship in place so you don't bump it" and "accidentally" set the range ruler down in a convenient location for a moment while you grab the other ship. The ships don't have to be lined up perfectly, they just have to be close enough that you have plausible deniability when your opponent accuses you of cheating.

If the TC Computer is worth 2 points, and someone has 4 rebel ships, they've spent 8 points to try to pull off that trick. That's a lot of points. It's the difference between a rookie and Wedge.

Err, what? X-wings already have the TL action on their action bar and can use it for more than just measuring range.

The range ruler must be placed from the ship attempting the lock to the ship it's attempting to lock.

You're missing the point here. The ship you're "trying to check range to" doesn't matter, it's nothing more than an excuse to put the range ruler on the table without obviously cheating. You don't measure legitimately and then happen to gain some extra information, you "accidentally" move the range ruler through the area you want to measure as you're placing it on the table. Or you "realize that you need to hold this ship in place so you don't bump it" and "accidentally" set the range ruler down in a convenient location for a moment while you grab the other ship. The ships don't have to be lined up perfectly, they just have to be close enough that you have plausible deniability when your opponent accuses you of cheating.

If the TC Computer is worth 2 points, and someone has 4 rebel ships, they've spent 8 points to try to pull off that trick. That's a lot of points. It's the difference between a rookie and Wedge.

Err, what? X-wings already have the TL action on their action bar and can use it for more than just measuring range.

It seems to me that your problem is people cheating, not the rules themselves. Ridding the game of targets of opportunity, i.e. the rules you believe to be enabling cheaters, won't actually address the underlying cause of their behavior. I think most of us here can agree that this isn't another "the sky is falling" scenario that merits FFG's attention. Besides, they still haven't fixed the rules to exclude modified dice, and we all know how much that's being abused.

The range ruler must be placed from the ship attempting the lock to the ship it's attempting to lock.

You're missing the point here. The ship you're "trying to check range to" doesn't matter, it's nothing more than an excuse to put the range ruler on the table without obviously cheating. You don't measure legitimately and then happen to gain some extra information, you "accidentally" move the range ruler through the area you want to measure as you're placing it on the table. Or you "realize that you need to hold this ship in place so you don't bump it" and "accidentally" set the range ruler down in a convenient location for a moment while you grab the other ship. The ships don't have to be lined up perfectly, they just have to be close enough that you have plausible deniability when your opponent accuses you of cheating.

If the TC Computer is worth 2 points, and someone has 4 rebel ships, they've spent 8 points to try to pull off that trick. That's a lot of points. It's the difference between a rookie and Wedge.

Err, what? X-wings already have the TL action on their action bar and can use it for more than just measuring range.

I'm saying that the Xwing's 21 point minimum cost already has the TC built into it. It's just not optional on an Xwing. When they costed the Xwing at 21 points, the fact that it could perform a TL was considered in the total cost. It's not free, it's just not optional to pay for. And later when Imperial Aces came out, they told us that the Targeting Computer was roughly 2 points. That's an imperfect way to cost something, but it's the best estimation.

I don't think this is really a big problem either. But, take solace in the fact that if someone has done it, they had to pay for the Targeting Computer they are using to do it.

And whenever someone is using the range ruler to measure for a TL they should only put the range ruler against the ship attempting the lock. No one should be putting the range rule near another ship as then move it into position to check something. That's shady and they shouldn't be doing it. If that is what you are upset about, then I agree with you. People shouldn't be doing that.

Just....wow. "Accidentlly" waving the range ruler around? The example of going through a song and dance and pretending to TL a ship clearly out of range to put the range ruler closer to the ships you really want to measure but aren't allowed to is garbage. Is it legal? Technically. It is a clever way to bend the rules, I'll give it that. But it reeks of "win at all costs". Can anyone really PROVE what you are doing? Probably not, but have some morals. Just because you know you can get away with shady actions doesn't mean you should.

Full disclosure; sometimes I want to know if a ship is in range to shoot, so I will measure for TL. However, I only measure for that ship, and I don't "sneaky measure" other ships.

I'm saying that the Xwing's 21 point minimum cost already has the TC built into it. It's just not optional on an Xwing. When they costed the Xwing at 21 points, the fact that it could perform a TL was considered in the total cost. It's not free, it's just not optional to pay for. And later when Imperial Aces came out, they told us that the Targeting Computer was roughly 2 points. That's an imperfect way to cost something, but it's the best estimation.

Except, again, the point cost of the targeting computer is based on taking a target lock action, not on cheating with range measurement. I seriously doubt FFG considered the "pretend you aren't cheating" value of a TL action on your action bar when they came up with those costs.

And whenever someone is using the range ruler to measure for a TL they should only put the range ruler against the ship attempting the lock.

Key point: SHOULD. In reality people "accidentally" sweep the ruler across the area they want to measure. This isn't a hypothetical situation, this kind of cheating was so common in 40k that you were at a major disadvantage if you were foolish enough to be honest and not do it yourself.

If that is what you are upset about, then I agree with you.

What I'm upset about is the fact that FFG still has a rule in their game that even the idiots at GW figured out was a terrible idea. Measuring bans cause way more issues with opportunities for cheating than they're worth.

I have no idea how the pre measuring rules in x-wing work, after a year and a half of playing. I generally let my opponents do whatever. Maybe that loses me games.

Measuring bans cause way more issues with opportunities for cheating than they're worth.

That must be why Warmachine is such a terrible game.

I'm saying that the Xwing's 21 point minimum cost already has the TC built into it. It's just not optional on an Xwing. When they costed the Xwing at 21 points, the fact that it could perform a TL was considered in the total cost. It's not free, it's just not optional to pay for. And later when Imperial Aces came out, they told us that the Targeting Computer was roughly 2 points. That's an imperfect way to cost something, but it's the best estimation.

Except, again, the point cost of the targeting computer is based on taking a target lock action, not on cheating with range measurement. I seriously doubt FFG considered the "pretend you aren't cheating" value of a TL action on your action bar when they came up with those costs.

And whenever someone is using the range ruler to measure for a TL they should only put the range ruler against the ship attempting the lock.

Key point: SHOULD. In reality people "accidentally" sweep the ruler across the area they want to measure. This isn't a hypothetical situation, this kind of cheating was so common in 40k that you were at a major disadvantage if you were foolish enough to be honest and not do it yourself.

If that is what you are upset about, then I agree with you.

What I'm upset about is the fact that FFG still has a rule in their game that even the idiots at GW figured out was a terrible idea. Measuring bans cause way more issues with opportunities for cheating than they're worth.

Not sure why if there is a rule there has to be cheating? Call them out on it and it stops, it really is that easy. Sounds like your gamer group is just full of bad sports tbh. I never have this issue with my group in casuals preparing for tournaments nor when I TO tournaments.

Measuring bans cause way more issues with opportunities for cheating than they're worth.

That must be why Warmachine is such a terrible game.

War machine does have an issue with shady tournament play, but none of it stems from the pressuring ban.

Measuring bans cause way more issues with opportunities for cheating than they're worth.

That must be why Warmachine is such a terrible game.

War machine does have an issue with shady tournament play, but none of it stems from the pressuring ban.

Autocorrect get the better of this one?