No agreed.

But equally if the purpose of your business and game is to make a playable tabletop game for a teen or family audience.

If 90 per cent (just making figures up here) of your sales are to casual gamers then if you find that when the games 'engine' is pushed to its limits by ingenious and very clever and capable players it might just not be good business sense to reboot and do a V2 to cater to that minority if its working very well for the majority.

All niche hobbies are like this. I work on an airsoft magazine.

On the forums its the same couple of hundred people posting all the time. weirdly some of them you dont see getting mucky in the woods on a weekend but they *talk* a good game. The actual player base are crawling around the woods shooting each other with toy guns and not spending too much time over analysing playing soldiers.

Im playing devils advocate here btw

In the past GW used to recruit previous GT winners to positions in games design and management to mixed results. Sometimes the things that make you a good 'user' of a game, well they don't actually make you a good 'mechanic' on it to mix metaphors somewhat.

My guess would be that FFG are very pleased they have a healthy organised play community but that its certainly not their focus when it comes to product design. What they do want is families and groups of mates playing casually.. thats why they distribute the game to malls and big supermarket chains like Tesco in the UK.

Obviously they would be fools to ignore the OP scene, it gives you some great stories, some good aspirational games etc etc but i think that they probably dont pay *that* much attention to these forums. The fact they are barely moderated sort of gives me a hint at how much attention they put towards them.

This is full of wrong. First, the forum community DOES matter, because it represents the most active, passionate slice of players.

That's not necessarily true and is the kind of thinking that Gadge was talking about a few posts up in that sometimes forum users think this is the only 'real' group of X-Wing players or the ones that 'care the most'

It would be more fair to say this community is "probably" the most active, passionate slice of tournament players but even then that may not be the case.

Just because somebody doesn't attend tournaments (I don't and probably never will) or even have the time or personality or inclination to frequent forums (I know *lots* of people like this) doesn't make them less passionate about the game (whatever 'passionate about the game' even means for that matter - another subjective term open to interpretation)

Snipped an excellent post by Jobu to avoid repeating it.....

Yeah i sort of felt the same. It was a fairly hostile defence

Again a niche hobby example but i used to run WWII re-enactment battle events.

We had a very big and active online forums, you start to assume *everyone* is online and if they are not part of that forum then they obviously dont really care about living history....

then you'd go to a show and meet an amazing dedicated group who were 100 per cent accurate and top notch re-enactors and you'd find out they were not on your forums because they didnt go online, they just got on with going to shows and avoided the internet drama.

Personally i love the internet and if im feeling a bit wicked a bit of drama too but you've got to understand that other people can do the same 'hobby' as you and do it as well but in a different way. Neither is more valid.

I've noted over the last week or so the peaked interest of other players into fortressing. This may have been a rare circumstance but it has caught more attention. I do not believe this will benefit the community in any way. We will see if FFG takes any action on this in the future or not. Regardless of any such action or not, this tactic does not ruin the game. But I believe the willingness to make use of such methods only diminishes from the character of the player base and that in itself is detrimental to the game.

In terms of actual reality - doesn't it is just give exposure to something the rules allow "oh, I didn't know you could do that"

How does playing by the rules diminish the character of the player base if somebody plays by the rules? I wasn't around then, but did the first person to pair C-3PO with a Falcon get lambasted in this way?

You are judging people based on your ideas of right and wrong, not on actual right and wrong as it currently stands.

How high profile it is DOES matter. The more people see it and are aware of it the more likely it'll be used. What happens if this tactic does begin to propagate and sees widespread use? Previously it was limited to Falcons and Lambdas. Now the general community sees that just about any ship profile can use it. Don't say that just because it hasn't been used much in the past means it WON'T be used much in the future. That's incredibly short sighted.

The designers looked at "Castling" back at Gencon, decided that it wasn't a big issue then but they'd put it on the backburner. I'm sure they have much more pressing issues to handle. But do you really think that they won't at least take some time to look at it now that it showed up at Worlds? I'd much rather them take a look at it and say, "Nah, we don't feel like it'll impact the game any further." or "We feel like this impacts the game negatively and will be making some changes in the future." than to just ignore it entirely like other game companies tend to do.

That is one slippery slope you are presenting. Anyone who has ever been in a traffic jam knew it was possible to get into these situations. What I am curious, is if this is a potentially problematic/powerful option, is why we haven't seen it before. The competitive circuit for this game is exploding. Only rivaled by Netrunner. Does anyone truly believe the "fly casual" mantra is so ingrained that it would've prevented them from using the strategy before? Yes, people will copy the winning squads. But, this one game was not in the finals, nor was it broadcast. You are going to run into more people copying Typo than you will have people copying the strategy of one game, that anyone who actually reads about it, will realize just how lucky Richard was.

I think the designers have more important issues to deal with than this one game. I guess the one thing I can thank about this one incident is that it is a change of pace from Falcon whining, which I would've expected to be more prolific since it was the winning squad.

"But I believe the willingness to make use of such methods only diminishes from the character of the player base and that in itself is detrimental to the game." This makes me cringe since it is positing a moral judgment on a player based on their chosen tactics during a match. There is nothing about playing a game according to the rules that is an ethical question. It seems that the opposite would be true.

I for one am glad that the content of my character is not based on X-wing Miniatures.

http://teamcovenant.com/blog/2014/11/13/alex-davy-on-x-wing/

Around 11mn - FFG Alex Davy talks about it, calls the fortress clever, within the rules, and that it will not be future of X-Wing one way or the other, as well as their initial design thinking as to why they haven't outlawed it ('it's a mild cold at best')

tempest, meet your teapot

Okay we have now reached the point where x-wing and poker on have been compared. Our work us done here, we can all leave now.

It was my comment about these ships not having white and green maneuvers. And I never received a response to that point. The evident answer is that they were never intended to come to a full stop. It is a bad strategy anyway as the proponents have pointed out, what is the reserve to calling it a ****** bag move to exploit a rules error?

It's not the fact that it is not forbidden from the rules or that FFG acknowledges that it is not forbidden by the rules, hardly a shinning endorsement, or that it is an ineffective tactic that would seldom be used. The point of issue is the mentality of thinking it permissible to exploit such an error. And if you must take any advantage not forbidden by rules oversight, then just where is your ethical line in the sand? Perhaps you have none and lack any moral integrity at all. That is what it appears to the rest if us when you champion such a topic as this. It is not a game issue, but a player issue.

How is FFG acknowledging something as a legitimate strategy not an endorsement? It may have been an unintended consequence of the rules, but if it was an 'error' they would have fixed it.

If you and everybody else are going to quote that interview time after time will you at least acknowledge the part where they say that they're going to keep an eye on it if it becomes a problem? And obviously some people have a problem with it now, so now after such a high profile incident? Give the designers some time to examine it and decide whether or not it needs fixing and how to fix it.

No, because it's irrelevant. It is not now, nor has it ever been, a problem for X-Wing. People making such baseless claims obviously know nothing about competitive games and how they're actually broken, and I feel absolutely no need to countenance the opinion of such an ignorant lot.

Yes, us ignorant lot. Some of which have been gaming and playing tournaments since before many here were born. Nor have we competed at anything in life either.

Many here cannot see the forest through the trees. You also fail to recognize the difference between something allowed by the rules and something not addressed by the rules.

But I agree this is not worth discussing further.

"Have fun storming the castle!"

You also fail to recognize the difference between something allowed by the rules and something not addressed by the rules.

Because there is none. The rules are the rules are the rules. Any given action either works within them, or it does not. "It works, but it shouldn't" doesn't change anything, even if you're absolutely right.

Yes, us ignorant lot. Some of which have been gaming and playing tournaments since before many here were born. Nor have we competed at anything in life either.

Many here cannot see the forest through the trees. You also fail to recognize the difference between something allowed by the rules and something not addressed by the rules.

But I agree this is not worth discussing further.

"Have fun storming the castle!"

I can recognize when something is a problem for a game, which is what this conversation is about.

Per Alex Davey: "fringe corner case rules" and "certainly not what the rules were meant to portray" are hardly shinning examples of endorsement. FFG simply chose to ignore this error in the rules.

I can recognize when something is a problem for a game, which is what this conversation is about.

Which is my point, while this maneuver in itself dies not break the game, it does set the stage for further incursions that may very well do so.

I have no interest to play 40-Wing.

I can recognize when something is a problem for a game, which is what this conversation is about.

Which is my point, while this maneuver in itself dies not break the game, it does set the stage for further incursions that may very well do so.

Ah, the classic slippery slope argument. As irrelevant as always.

Such situations will be dealt with if and when they appear. Until then they are a literal non-issue.

I can recognize when something is a problem for a game, which is what this conversation is about.

Which is my point, while this maneuver in itself dies not break the game, it does set the stage for further incursions that may very well do so.

I have no interest to play 40-Wing.

You're pretending like this exact strategy hasn't been possible since the beginning of the game. If two years isn't enough time for it to evolve into something completely degenerate, no amount of time will be. So no, it doesn't set the stage for any such thing. The game is fine, and will be for the foreseeable future. Everyone can stop crying now.

it does set the stage for further incursions that may very well do so.

And FFG has made it abundantly clear they'll deal with those issues if they feel it's needed.

I could care less at this point. If playing a space fighter game means crashing your ships into a pile is a viable option under the rules, it really doesn't inspire me to want to play this game in any official setting.

Count me amongst the scrubs then and I will restrict my games to friendly play. This game has gone in the exact direction I feared it would, solely directed towards tournament play.

Tournament players don't want this to be a dominant tactic any more than you do.

The thing, the ONLY thing that's been said for keeping the tactic is; Wait till it becomes a problem. Everyone benefits while the game stays a competitively balanced.

I fear the game going the other way, with an inelegant tangle of rules that limit the variation of play and are just as easily abused because the thematic sensibility of a vocal minority is offended.

I could care less at this point. If playing a space fighter game means crashing your ships into a pile is a viable option under the rules, it really doesn't inspire me to want to play this game in any official setting.

Count me amongst the scrubs then and I will restrict my games to friendly play. This game has gone in the exact direction I feared it would, solely directed towards tournament play.

Nobody is forcing you to play the game any more than they're forcing you to post.

Close the door on your way out..

I could care less at this point. If playing a space fighter game means crashing your ships into a pile is a viable option under the rules, it really doesn't inspire me to want to play this game in any official setting.

Count me amongst the scrubs then and I will restrict my games to friendly play. This game has gone in the exact direction I feared it would, solely directed towards tournament play.

The passive aggressive comments on how people are bad because they don't take the game "the right way".

The game is directed to whatever you want to play (casual, campaigns, epic, tournament...), but if you want casual play and this discussion has always been about tournament play, i don't understand what you are trying to discuss here. Are you extrapolating this discussion to how you should play at casual games ?

Well, in casual games you play however you want, with whomever you want. You choose people who shares your view about the game, and enjoy the game in same ways as you do. There is no expectation's problem, because you both share a lot of those expectations and enjoy the game in the same way.

But in tournaments you don't choose your opponent, and you can (by your attitude) see that you are not really into competition, so it is not about your opponent's being wrong, than you having the wrong expectations on how a tournament should be. And it is really sad, that you put the burden on your opponents, as they should just play the way you want them to, instead of just realizing that you are the problem.

And the 40k reference. 40k is not intended to be competitive, it receives ZERO support for competitive play from GW, and the game has been a complete balance wreck since long time ago. Yet here you are, talking how the game is directed at the tournament scene, when it's the oppossite. The game is directed at miniature collectionists first, the game is an afterthought nowadays (and some people may enjoy it, which is perfectly fine).

If there is anything i see coming from 40k players (sorry for the generalization) into this, is the same bashing attitude toward players that play the game in unexpected ways for them (those dirty cheesy tournament players, how dare they).

I could care less at this point. If playing a space fighter game means crashing your ships into a pile is a viable option under the rules, it really doesn't inspire me to want to play this game in any official setting.

Count me amongst the scrubs then and I will restrict my games to friendly play. This game has gone in the exact direction I feared it would, solely directed towards tournament play.

Nobody is forcing you to play the game any more than they're forcing you to post.

Nor are you forced to respond to anything here.

Close the door on your way out..

See above.

Seriously, anyone worried about this one way or the other should watch the interview with Alex Davy. I promise you the guy with FFG's name on his paycheck cares as much or more about the future of this game than any tournament or casual player. Just do it. You'll feel better.