Hi all

I'm relatively new to X-Wing but have been trying to get myself up to speed by reading blogs, listening to podcasts and watching games on YouTube. I think I've now got a reasonable feel for what is going on in the meta.

There seems to be widespread frustration with turreted ships and I must admit that whilst I can see why the Falcon has to have turrets, I can also see what it takes away from the game. With the introduction of two new turreted ships, it seems like a hard counter needs to be introduced.

What I have been thinking is that FFG should introduce a variant on the ion weapons currently in the game. Whereas ion weapons overload ships control systems limiting their maneuverability, couldn't there be a variant that overloads the systems of turreted ships giving them forward arc only fire whilst the effect remains?

This would also promote more use of ordnance in the game. Imagine a group of A-Wings or TIE Advanced using anti-turret weapons as an alpha strike and then zipping around to the flanks of the turreted ship to make use of the outmaneuver or expose EPTs to do significant damage. They could then speed out of range in the turn that the turret comes back online and then make another pass, perhaps using a second anti-turret missile as they did so. This would feel much more in the spirit of the game than turret domination.

Another possibility is introducing new damage cards into the deck that result in the turret losing its rotation. I can't see how a couple of new cards with effects for turreted and non-turreted ships on them would have a problematic effect on game balance.

What does everyone think?

Hi ionic.

I'm also fairly new to the game, but i think your idea quite intersting. I love the idea of ordonance weapons doing some overload damge, which would make them see more play time. It doesn't even have to be exclusivly against turret weapon systems. It might be interesting if ordonance would trigger one turn effects similar to those on the damage cards, maybe a weapon that triggers a random, ship or pilot damage for one turn or so.

I know this might bring a random aspect to the game which might not be appreciated since the game, as it is now, is a tactical game with a low luck factor, which it also should remain imo.

But i agree that ffg should introduce a hard counter to big ships, making small manouverable ships having a big impact again.

Thanks strehlm. I used to play 40k way back in the mists of time and I seem to recall an ordnance type called haywire. I think it came in grenade and missile forms and short-circuited equipment, robots, etc.

A haywire missile that would have a random effect on any ship could be very interesting. Thematically, it would seem a good fit with the scum faction.

However, I think that would be additional to what I'm proposing. A straight anti-turret weapon would solve a lot of issues and seems thematically appropriate.

A haywire missile that would have a random effect on any ship could be very interesting.

A random effect on a ship. That's called critical hit or face-up damage card.

As a fan of Y Wings with turrets this would make me cry...always remember minor tweaks always impact on a larger scale than originally planned

There's already an upgrade in wave six called autothrusters that's going to help ships against turrets, let's wait and see what that is.

A haywire missile that would have a random effect on any ship could be very interesting.

A random effect on a ship. That's called critical hit or face-up damage card.

Yep but we are talking about short term "face-up damage cards" or random effect delt whenhit, even if you have shields, so the targeted ship suffers the consequences imediately for one turn. e.g. turret malfunction or so...

As a fan of Y Wings with turrets this would make me cry...always remember minor tweaks always impact on a larger scale than originally planned

True, but we're only talking about a one round effect and the turret isn't disabled, it just becomes fixed forward. And if you hit a Y or a HWK-290 with an anti-turret missile, you are only affecting say 25 to 30 points of the list, whereas you may be affecting 50 or 60 points of a large turreted ship centred list.

In any event, it would dictate your target priorities: take out the ship carrying the ordnance before it can fire.

A haywire missile that would have a random effect on any ship could be very interesting.

A random effect on a ship. That's called critical hit or face-up damage card.

But crits don't affect ships with their shields still up. Anyway, it was just a random thought. The anti-turret missile is what I'm interested in.

There's already an upgrade in wave six called autothrusters that's going to help ships against turrets, let's wait and see what that is.

True, but it would be nice if there was more than one potential counter available.

There's already an upgrade in wave six called autothrusters that's going to help ships against turrets, let's wait and see what that is.

I don't think this thread needs to look any further than this, to be honest. We're getting two new turreted ships in Wave 5, and some potential counters in Wave 6. FFG knows what they're doing.

There's already an upgrade in wave six called autothrusters that's going to help ships against turrets, let's wait and see what that is.

I don't think this thread needs to look any further than this, to be honest. We're getting two new turreted ships in Wave 5, and some potential counters in Wave 6. FFG knows what they're doing.

I understand your point, but I'd like to ask a question to you and Hobojebus: do you think my suggestion would be a fun and thematically appropriate way of countering turrets?

Do I get to hear C3PO cry in agony if this suggestion were implemented lol?

There's already an upgrade in wave six called autothrusters that's going to help ships against turrets, let's wait and see what that is.

I don't think this thread needs to look any further than this, to be honest. We're getting two new turreted ships in Wave 5, and some potential counters in Wave 6. FFG knows what they're doing.

I understand your point, but I'd like to ask a question to you and Hobojebus: do you think my suggestion would be a fun and thematically appropriate way of countering turrets?

i like it, but i also like ordnance as is.

however, at best, you're shutting down turrets for 2 turns. i've found that ships with 2 pieces of ordnance almost never get to fire their second piece.

so while the effect would hit its intended mark, its sort of a bandaid solution.

but i dont think turrets are broken or anything either

There's already an upgrade in wave six called autothrusters that's going to help ships against turrets, let's wait and see what that is.

I don't think this thread needs to look any further than this, to be honest. We're getting two new turreted ships in Wave 5, and some potential counters in Wave 6. FFG knows what they're doing.

I understand your point, but I'd like to ask a question to you and Hobojebus: do you think my suggestion would be a fun and thematically appropriate way of countering turrets?

i like it, but i also like ordnance as is.

however, at best, you're shutting down turrets for 2 turns. i've found that ships with 2 pieces of ordnance almost never get to fire their second piece.

so while the effect would hit its intended mark, its sort of a bandaid solution.

but i dont think turrets are broken or anything either

I haven't played enough against Falcons to have a real feel for how much of a problem it is. I'm just reacting to what I've read online and the preponderance of Falcon-based lists at the Worlds. The suggestion is really motivated by my love of A-Wings. Their ability to outmaneuver other ships seems completed wasted when those other ships have turrets. The fact that such a pure dogfighter is disadvantaged seems wrong when this is a dogfighting game.

I understand your point, but I'd like to ask a question to you and Hobojebus: do you think my suggestion would be a fun and thematically appropriate way of countering turrets?

I think it's fundamentally flawed. Ordnance weapons that specifically affect turrets need to be built into your list from the start, and as such would

a: Only be available to ships capable of using those ordnance slots and

b: Be a complete waste of points when you come up against a list which doesn't feature turrets.

As for the Damage Deck idea - I'm against changes to the Damage Deck in general, as it suffers from a huge problem in distribution. Every single X-Wing player would need to purchase a new damage deck in order for it to work.

As an A wing monkey, even given that name in local community....you will always hate turrets. You just have to hope your green dice dont betray you

One idea would be to use Arvel and keep hitting Han intentionally, I haven't tried this but its an idea to maybe test

I understand your point, but I'd like to ask a question to you and Hobojebus: do you think my suggestion would be a fun and thematically appropriate way of countering turrets?

I think it's fundamentally flawed. Ordnance weapons that specifically affect turrets need to be built into your list from the start, and as such would

a: Only be available to ships capable of using those ordnance slots and

b: Be a complete waste of points when you come up against a list which doesn't feature turrets.

As for the Damage Deck idea - I'm against changes to the Damage Deck in general, as it suffers from a huge problem in distribution. Every single X-Wing player would need to purchase a new damage deck in order for it to work.

Thanks Gecko. I think you're right about the Damage Deck. Hadn't thought that through.

With regards to your other points:

a. Isn't that always true? And is it actually a problem? If one or two ships that are currently underused get to have some ordnance that has a particular role and that promotes their deployment, isn't that a good thing?

b. True, but then there are already examples of weapons that are largely wasted if you don't meet the right list. Ion pulse missiles are a fairly inefficient use of points if the list you're up against doesn't have large ships in it. Assault missiles aren't great unless you are facing a swarm.

Swarmy lists do quite well vs Turreted ships, the more ships you have against them the better, especially if it's an Ion heavy list. Other than the HWK most turreted ships have 8 or more total health, which can be a lot to get through so like I said, swarm list - the more dice you can throw at it a round the better!

a. Isn't that always true? And is it actually a problem? If one or two ships that are currently underused get to have some ordnance that has a particular role and that promotes their deployment? Isn't that a good thing.

b. True, but then there are already examples of weapons that are largely wasted if you don't meet the right list. Ion pulse missiles are a fairly inefficient use of points if the list you're up against doesn't have large ships in it. Assault missiles aren't great unless you are facing a swarm.

The trouble is that you're giving a very specific upgrade a very specific role - ordnance carriers already have plenty of options they can use against turreted ships. Cluster Missiles, Homing Missiles, Concussion Missiles - the Ion Pulse Missiles you mentioned - all very useful against low agility turreted targets, and also useful against low agility ships which don't have turrets as well.

The ships which are finding life most difficult against turreted ship are the elite, high PS arc dodgers - anything which excels at avoiding it's opponents attacks finds their main advantage almost redundant against turrets. A boost to these ships - as we're expecting FFG to give us with the upcoming Autothrusters upgrade - will even the playing field much more than introducing a new piece of ordnance with a very niche role.

The problem with turrets isn't that they are too strong but that they invalidate the other guys movement, tie interceptors are great arc Dodgers and rely on that to survive but turret ships remove that meaning all they have is three green dice and those will eventually fail you.

We don't know what autothrusters will do, it may add more dice when shot at by a turret or it might reduce the turrets firepower but whatever it does its already finalized and well find out before Xmas I suspect.

a. Isn't that always true? And is it actually a problem? If one or two ships that are currently underused get to have some ordnance that has a particular role and that promotes their deployment? Isn't that a good thing.

b. True, but then there are already examples of weapons that are largely wasted if you don't meet the right list. Ion pulse missiles are a fairly inefficient use of points if the list you're up against doesn't have large ships in it. Assault missiles aren't great unless you are facing a swarm.

The trouble is that you're giving a very specific upgrade a very specific role - ordnance carriers already have plenty of options they can use against turreted ships. Cluster Missiles, Homing Missiles, Concussion Missiles - the Ion Pulse Missiles you mentioned - all very useful against low agility turreted targets, and also useful against low agility ships which don't have turrets as well.

The ships which are finding life most difficult against turreted ship are the elite, high PS arc dodgers - anything which excels at avoiding it's opponents attacks finds their main advantage almost redundant against turrets. A boost to these ships - as we're expecting FFG to give us with the upcoming Autothrusters upgrade - will even the playing field much more than introducing a new piece of ordnance with a very niche role.

Thanks Gecko. You obviously know far more than me about this game. I was under the impression that the only ordnance that is seeing regular use is the flechette torpedo and that all other missiles and torpedoes were considered to be overcosted. I also thought that there was potentially an overlap between the arc dodger and the ordnance carrier in the form of the A-Wing. Am I missing something?

Swarmy lists do quite well vs Turreted ships, the more ships you have against them the better, especially if it's an Ion heavy list. Other than the HWK most turreted ships have 8 or more total health, which can be a lot to get through so like I said, swarm list - the more dice you can throw at it a round the better!

Thanks KovuTalli. Whilst I think the idea of a swarm is great for the Imperials, I've been hoping to find a way to fly a high PS group of arc dodgers (maybe 3 named A-Wings plus a Green Squadron) but it just doesn't seem like there is a role for them in the game. Swarms just don't feel very 'Rebel' to me. From what I've heard on podcasts, As only seem to be valued as members of mini-swarms where they function as blockers.

The problem with turrets isn't that they are too strong but that they invalidate the other guys movement, tie interceptors are great arc Dodgers and rely on that to survive but turret ships remove that meaning all they have is three green dice and those will eventually fail you.

We don't know what autothrusters will do, it may add more dice when shot at by a turret or it might reduce the turrets firepower but whatever it does its already finalized and well find out before Xmas I suspect.

Thanks Hobo. I wasn't aware of the Autothruster card until now. Hopefully they'll benefit other ships as well. I really like interceptors and have just bought 2 boxes of Imperial Aces for those beautiful Royal Guards, but they seem to get one shotted an awful lot.

Thanks Gecko. You obviously know far more than me about this game. I was under the impression that the only ordnance that is seeing regular use is the flechette torpedo and that all other missiles and torpedoes were considered to be overcosted. I also thought that there was potentially an overlap between the arc dodger and the ordnance carrier in the form of the A-Wing. Am I missing something?

You are right in that ordnance is generally considered to be overcosted and/or inefficient; it also doesn't see a great deal of use at the moment competitively because a lot of the ships that can take it have better options elsewhere (B-Wings and TIE Defenders for example have a native 3 dice attack and access to the Cannon slot, and the HLC, Ion Cannon etc).

That doesn't mean that ordnance in general isn't an effective weapon against most turret-capable ships (YT's, Y-Wings, HWKs), especially on ships that can take it which naturally only have 2 attack dice like A-Wings, Z-95's, TIE Bombers and TIE Advanced.

It appears with this suggestion you're attempting to kill two birds with one stone - increase the use of ordnance AND to effectively tone down turret builds at the same time. That's not the ideal way to address these potential issues, as it becomes very situational.

Ordnance recently got a boost in the form of the Munitions Failsafe modification, which makes it whiffing an ordnance attack less of a risk (at the cost one point and your modification slot). Arc-dodgers will shortly be getting a boost with the Autothrusters card, which is also likely to be a modification. Modification cards are effectively FFG's get-out-of-jail-free card, as they allow them to implement global changes which can be used by any ship in the game.

One word... (or two with a hyphen) Mag-Pulse. Not sure how to implement them but as an x-wing and tie fighter PC fanatic, I wants them in the game somehow.