Gunner + Accuracy Corrector Vs Gunner + Fire Control System

By Royals, in X-Wing

I don't see why you'd use any Evade tokens or optional abilities on the first attack against you unless it has rolled the maximum amount of hits/crits and that numbers is more than 2 (ie more efficient than the AC would generate with 2 auto hits). If its any other circumstance you let it either deal 1 damage to you, thus you have forced your opponent to deal sub-optimal damage, it misses and you are fine, or your opponent activates AC and you then cancel those die.

Notice the wording is dice cannot be modified. Ie you cannot re-roll, up or downgrade them. But you can cancel them out with your own evades as per normal attacks.

You can attack again via Gunner.

Yes, but like you said, adding a result or results to your roll is a modification, and the Corrector card has you do just that. That's really where me reservation comes from. It would be very interesting if they let you modify your attack after the defender rolls and modifies dice, but I don't think that's in the spirit of the rules so far.

Just because the ability can modify dice does not make it a modification ability. The HLC modifies dice based on a trigger, and that happens outside the normal modify step. The Accuracy Corrector does the same thing - it has a main, triggering effect (the cancellation) and then provides an additional modification (the adds).

Again, the rules on it are pretty clear, "spiritual" interpretations aside. It's certainly possible that FFG will be surprised by their own rules - nothing previously has used that particular timing rule. But the rules, as they're actually printed, are perfectly clear until FFG changes them.

I suppose that your reading is perfectly acceptable until an FAQ happens, because the timing really is ambiguous. It just seems to me that FFG would be looking to avoid the following scenario:

Xizor with an Accuracy Corrector is attacking an X-Wing. Xizor has a Range 2 shot, and a focus token. The X-Wing also has a focus token.

Xizor rolls, and the dice come up with a blank and two focus symbols. Xizor elects not to modify his dice with a focus token.

The X-Wing rolls, and comes up with a blank and a focus. The X-Wing elects not to modify his dice with the focus token.

There is no reason for FFG to avoid that scenario.

In that scenario the defender made a mistake. The defender knows the attacker has AC. The defender knows the attacker will use AC. The defender knows he has to defend against two hit results. In order to reduce damage he should use focus.

If someone does not want to use his focus token in order to suffer more damage, there is no way the rules can or should stop him.

So, if the attacker and defender both know whether or not AC should trigger the instant the red dice are rolled, why would AC trigger at any other time? Why create a paradoxical situation where I'm rolling evasion dice and modifying them to evade hits that potentially haven't even happened yet? That seems unfair and unintuitive, and makes the game harder to keep track of than necessary.

There is no paradox. You roll defense dice, always, no matter what happens on the attack. Roll 5 blanks? You still roll defense. Blinded Pilot so you roll zero dice? You still roll defense. You're also reading a lot into the timing that isn't there. You don't compare dice results until after everything has been rolled and canceled. Yes, the normal flow will usually mean that the defender knows exactly what he has to evade by the time he rolls dice, but there's nothing that actually codifies that into the rules.

You're welcome to think it's unfair, although I think that's a bit off base given that we don't yet have any abilities which present unknowns. And why would it be unfair even if there were an unknown? The attacker is constantly forced to make token decisions while facing unknowns. If an ability flipped that in some limited way I have a hard time seeing it as unfair. You seem to have locked in on the current system as the only "fair" one, but that really makes no sense.

As for being counter intuitive, it's certainly no worse than all the flip-flopping on who modifies dice first, and certain abilities which resort to initiative order. And harder to keep track of... seriously?

Yes, it happens at a different time than most other abilities. No, it's not against the "spirit" of the rules, or unfair, or even counter intuitive once you recognize that it's a different ability.

Then the X-wing pilot's an idiot. And, honestly, if this is the best trick he can come up with, Xizor's reputation as a criminal mastermind is highly overrated.

I get what you're saying, and I'm not trying to be argumentative on purpose, but I think you might have missed my point slightly. I wasn't trying to show Xizor tricking the opponent, rather I was trying to show a situation with as little meta-game as possible where the defender has no hits to evade ...

That's the flaw in your line of thinking. Those two hit results are not on the table yet. But the defender knows they will be.



Well it seems I was wrong! Sorry about that. This line from the rulebook sorts it out.

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But if you have Engine Upgrade, then you can feel free to Boost.

You're not wrong, but now you're still spending even more points to upgrade a ship and only throwing two hits guaranteed, when instead a Gunner and/or Fire-Control System would keep you more consistently at three or four hits, still without using your action.

Gunner/FCS is a lot at seven points, so I can see a case for just slapping the Corrector on there and calling it a day, but Corrector + Engine Upgrade is also seven and doesn't offer as much damage. Gunner + FCS + Engine Upgrade is most expensive, but the attack power of that shuttle is pretty well-known. A 24pt OGP+AC would be interesting and relatively point-efficient, I think I'll have to proxy that soon and test it out.

Most of the time it's gunner + FCS + EU vs. AC + EU. 11 vs 6pts is a pretty big deal and should open up shuttle use even more!

I think you will see some use of Accuracy Corrector on E-wings and maybe the viper(it depends on how interceptory it is) that way those ships can use their actions for defense or arc dodging and still know they have 2 hits regardless of the roll.

When I play interceptors I am great at being out of arc of all or all but one ship but often I am without a focus or a target lock; if interceptors could take Accuracy Corrector I would put it on them.

Gunner + Accuracy Corrector is a great way to strip tokens.

Is it though? You've got to modify attack dice before the defender even rolls, so you're making the call for two hits before they even see if they need to spend tokens.

I think Gunner is redundant with the Corrector. Most of the ships that can take both would prefer a focus or target lock anyway, depending. I think Accuracy Corrector is going to do best on something that spends its action on getting out of arc, and second best when you spend your action defensively. The Lambda and B-Wing are mediocre at both of those.

Back to this point since no one seemed to clarify it the reason AC+gunner is good for stripping tokens is if you whiff your first attack the defender has no reason to spend a token, but if you have 2 hits on the first attack that may be enough to coerce a token, at which point you can gunner (assuming they cancelled both hits with the token) and you get at least 2 more hits to try to get him to spend a token on

Gunner + Accuracy Corrector is a great way to strip tokens.

Is it though? You've got to modify attack dice before the defender even rolls, so you're making the call for two hits before they even see if they need to spend tokens.

I think Gunner is redundant with the Corrector. Most of the ships that can take both would prefer a focus or target lock anyway, depending. I think Accuracy Corrector is going to do best on something that spends its action on getting out of arc, and second best when you spend your action defensively. The Lambda and B-Wing are mediocre at both of those.

Back to this point since no one seemed to clarify it the reason AC+gunner is good for stripping tokens is if you whiff your first attack the defender has no reason to spend a token, but if you have 2 hits on the first attack that may be enough to coerce a token, at which point you can gunner (assuming they cancelled both hits with the token) and you get at least 2 more hits to try to get him to spend a token on

That's what I've bee trying to say all along! Hah

I don't see Accuracy Corrector getting a lot of play unless it pairs with another ability well (or a ship with less than 3 dice). With 3 dice you already have good odds of getting 2+ hits:

Unmodified: 50% chance of getting 2+ hits

Focus or TL: 84% chance of getting 2+ hits

Focus & TL: 98% chance of getting 2+ hits

(not to mention it's impossible to get crits with AC, and if you're at range 1 there is almost no way you'll need AC)

So a Shuttle with no upgrades, just focusing has an 84% chance of not needing to use AC... and even if you somehow lost your action it's still only a 50/50 shot of AC coming in handy... It's just not good on its own and gunner doesn't help.

"Even if you somehow lost your action"

It is clear you don't fly the mighty space cow two often huh