You can't have FCS and RC on a 5 Tie + Whisper list Kryzak.

I am on the opposite spectrum Buhallin. People overestimate stress, specially if you can't deliver ions at the same time.

I know. I forgot to clarify that I play Echo, so I can have both (and do have both) in my lists. =)

People overestimate stress, specially if you can't deliver ions at the same time.

So you use PtL as a standard on every ship that can carry it?

That relies on the green maneuvers (to be able to use PtL every turn), and the selection of actions which the ship can do.

So for example, yes i put it always on interceptors that can carry it.

I am in the captive camp (see what I did there ).

Anyhow, I thing the rebel captive synergies better with the swarm, making a falcon/phantom move more predictable makes 5 ties murderously strong as they can get into that range 1 killer shooting/blocking move.

In say 2 big ships ore multible elite lists, FCD is better due to the fact the phantom must pull its weight in firepower and that upgrade is what lets it do it. in the 5 tie swarm it can be used as bait and let the ties chew the opponent up.

People overestimate stress, specially if you can't deliver ions at the same time.

So you use PtL as a standard on every ship that can carry it?

That relies on the green maneuvers (to be able to use PtL every turn), and the selection of actions which the ship can do.

So for example, yes i put it always on interceptors that can carry it.

So then the impact of stress would seem to be bad enough to only take it on ships that can clear it reliably, no?

Do you realize that you are trying to split hairs instead of discussing the topic itself ?

My posture is that Rebel captive is more situational and less reliable use of 3 points than the 2 points from the FCS in that list, not if i would equip push the limit on a ship with little action or greens, like an Xwing (which right now i wouldn't, because of the existence of predator).

Do you think stressing an Xwing is useful or required ? Your example was about R3A2, which even tho it is a menace to the whisper, it can be deflected by the list since you have 5 Ties. So it is hardly required, and while plus in some match ups, the generic FCS will add more value in a higher array of match ups, either by damage against high agility list, defense against turrets, and better arc dodging by using barrel roll, withouth loosing damage.

And now, i will go to the offtopic, since it seems like i didn't explained it well enough to convey my point, it's not the stress the problem, it is not being able to use it every turn or take advantadge of good variety of actions, not the stress itself, making it less cost effective than others EPTs (like for example, predator).

Do you realize that you are trying to split hairs instead of discussing the topic itself ?

You said people overvalue the impact of stress. If stress is low-impact, there's no reason not to fly PtL every chance you get - it's pretty much the golden EPT, hands-down. Sure, a few new options like Predator give it a run for its money, but those are both recent and more limited. If stress has so little impact, PtL should have been the automatic choice on every ship that could carry it, and the actual selection of green maneuvers should be irrelevant because clearing it should be irrelevant.

One's sense of the value of the Captive will hinge greatly on the perceived impact of stress. You obviously prefer FCS, and dismiss stress as overvalued because it's less than your preferred option. But you do seem to think it matters enough to influence your use of PtL. Just feels a little inconsistent, is all.

And all that means that the impact of stress is very relevant to the topic at hand.

Do you realize that you are trying to split hairs instead of discussing the topic itself ?

You said people overvalue the impact of stress. If stress is low-impact, there's no reason not to fly PtL every chance you get - it's pretty much the golden EPT, hands-down. Sure, a few new options like Predator give it a run for its money, but those are both recent and more limited. If stress has so little impact, PtL should have been the automatic choice on every ship that could carry it, and the actual selection of green maneuvers should be irrelevant because clearing it should be irrelevant.

One's sense of the value of the Captive will hinge greatly on the perceived impact of stress. You obviously prefer FCS, and dismiss stress as overvalued because it's less than your preferred option. But you do seem to think it matters enough to influence your use of PtL. Just feels a little inconsistent, is all.

And all that means that the impact of stress is very relevant to the topic at hand.

IMO how good stress is depends on what the target ship wants to do on the next round. If suppose he's behind you and he's going to go slow forward 1 or easy 1, stress or no stress there is absolutely no difference whatsoever, since he would be doing a green maneuver anyway.

Yes, it does shut off ACDs (good in phantom vs phantom), and can offer a degree of soft control. However, it only does that much.

If you want to use stress as a weapon, Tactician would probably be of more use than Rebel Captive, since Tactician is on your own terms. You can use it to target specific ships, eg. those that are already stressed, ships that you are chasing, etcetc, compared to Rebel Captive, which really only protects you from an opposing ACD phantom and provides some slight irritance to opposing elite lists.

I flown that exact list as well. FCS on Whisper, 1 point for initiative bidding. Against PS9 headaches like Soontir, Han etc, you have a bit of a chance in the initiative bidding war, so at the very least that 1 point can help go towards you choosing which style suits you more, shooting first and cloaking, or knowing where your enemy is and attempt arc dodging.

FCS is a must, allows Whisper to take Evade for action, then turtle up with cloak + Focus token from hitting the target after modifying your attack rolls with the TL from FCS.

EDIT: If you are considering Echo instead, Echo needs ACD + Recon Spec, so that's a basic 37pts. last 3pts I would suggest either Outmaneuver or Ruthlessness. Let's not kid ourselves, most ghostbusting lists are minimum PS9 + initiative bid, so Echo VI would not have any chance in a PS contest. May as well use some proper EPT instead of VI.

I would have to slightly disagree with the Echo loadout. Just my personal opinion and experience playing Echo. I love Recon Spec in casual games, but against the PS9+ meta in tournaments, Recon Spec doesn't do me as much (with only 2 agility dice, 3 at best) as Rebel Captive does for me against the Soontir, Fat Han, and Whisper's out there.

VI is another one that's probably personal preference. I understand the PS8 won't win you against the PS9+ meta, but these days there are enough people playing the PS7-8 (Corran, Keyan, Horton, Super Dash, all without VI) meta that moving after them is equally painful. I've flown with Outmaneuver and Predator, and just didn't like the moving ahead of everyone part. Some people may be a lot better at doing so, but like I said, it's a personal preference. =)

mmm, I find Recon Spec to be more "suitable for all situations" than Rebel Captive. That 2nd focus is still useful even when you are not cloaked and guarding with 2 green dice. Rebel Captive does shut off opposing ACD phantoms, but is not gonna do anything about you receiving 3-4 hits against your 2 agi

Plus, it combos well with Lone Wolf

I think I'm going to go with FCS. I suspect I'm going to want the initiative bid, and I don't expect to see many other phantoms around here. I'll try to remember to let people know how it comes out.

IMO how good stress is depends on what the target ship wants to do on the next round. If suppose he's behind you and he's going to go slow forward 1 or easy 1, stress or no stress there is absolutely no difference whatsoever, since he would be doing a green maneuver anyway.

Yes, it does shut off ACDs (good in phantom vs phantom), and can offer a degree of soft control. However, it only does that much.

If you want to use stress as a weapon, Tactician would probably be of more use than Rebel Captive, since Tactician is on your own terms. You can use it to target specific ships, eg. those that are already stressed, ships that you are chasing, etcetc, compared to Rebel Captive, which really only protects you from an opposing ACD phantom and provides some slight irritance to opposing elite lists.

There are certainly limitations to it, but I think this understates the number of useful situations for the Captive. It also shuts down PtL (and aren't you on record for a very long time as PtL being the most broken upgrade in the game?), and while your opponent has some level of control over who's getting the stress, the first-shooter impact means it's typically going to be a high-PS ship, which almost certainly means an important one. Or, even better, you deter the shot at all, which is something I've seen happen any number of times.

There's plenty of utility in the "soft control" as well. If it's early game, it restricts where your opponent is going and opens them up to predictable (and hence blockable) maneuvers by allies. If it's a late-game 1v1, your opponent stressing when you're not is huge. If absolutely nothing else it removes the K-turn from your opponent, which is huge when you're trying to stay out of their arc.

<shrug> No, it's not damage, but I personally find FCS underwhelming on that front anyway. Between the number of times you kill the target and waste the lock, or end up with the lock on a less-than-ideal target, I find it about as useful as R5-K6. The stress is, as you say, softer, and relies a lot on your ability to exploit it once it's there.

Edit: And while Tactician may be on your own terms, those terms require giving up attack strength to make it work, which I don't care for.

mmm, I find Recon Spec to be more "suitable for all situations" than Rebel Captive. That 2nd focus is still useful even when you are not cloaked and guarding with 2 green dice. Rebel Captive does shut off opposing ACD phantoms, but is not gonna do anything about you receiving 3-4 hits against your 2 agi

Plus, it combos well with Lone Wolf

I do agree with you on Recon being more "versatile", and it's the loadout of my choice normally in casual games or even local tournaments (where there aren't that many Fat Hans and whispers). Shutting down Whisper allows me (if I survive) to shoot back, or my other ships to gun down Whisper uncloaked. Pretty much if I will fly near Whisper, I'm going to have guns trained on him to fire back.

But yes, Lone Wolf would be good, but the other personal preference of using VI is preventing me from using LW. ;-)