The core of the list is obviously:

Whisper (32) + VI (1) + ACD (4)

5x Academy Pilot (12)

This leaves 3 points to play with. Is it better to go for adding the Rebel Captive and give up any initiative bid? Or should I add an FCS or Tactician and keep a 1 point initiative bid?

I'd go FCS. You really kind of need to take an evade action in this turret-heavy environment. Plus one point of insurance so that Soontir(or other Whispers)won't just eat you alive if you run across them. Target-locking 4-5 dice is always a good plan.

Rebel Captive. It's ideal in the PS race - anyone high enough to threaten your recloak will be guaranteed the extra stress. It really screws with Wes+R3-A2 builds, makes Han easier to block, and stressed ships are even easier for Phantoms to outmaneuver.

Once the Decimator becomes legal, I'd replace that with Mara. Guaranteed stress on multiple ships is too awesome to pass up.

Having played that list a lot, FCS by far. Ties don't have that kind of firepower against high agility ships, and it also makes your phantom more durable since it frees you actions for barrel rolls/evades when you judge it is required.

Any xwing list with a Wes VI R3A2 can be trained with the 5 Ties anyways Buhallin, while you play cat and mouse with the phantom, and while rebel captive is at its best against other phantoms (specially with the small iniative bid), FCS is better also against Falcons in general, and those will give you more troubles than other phantoms.

Any xwing list with a Wes VI R3A2 can be trained with the 5 Ties anyways Buhallin, while you play cat and mouse with the phantom, and while rebel captive is at its best against other phantoms (specially with the small iniative bid), FCS is better also against Falcons in general, and those will give you more troubles than other phantoms.

Well, that'll depend on what the rest of the list is. I've watched this particular matchup get the Phantom (and its TIEs) eaten, and quickly. IMHO an Etahn/3Z mini-swarm beats a 5 AP mini-swarm handily. It's got total PS advantage, and the crit flood is harsh against TIEs.

You can certainly get into "Well then I'd just..." but I think the Phantom is actually at a bit of a disadvantage in the overall maneuvering. You want Whisper roaming, but if she's roaming then Wes can separate and chase, while the Rebel miniswarm forces an engagement against your TIEs. And if you're not careful with Whisper, Wes can turn back to jump on the TIEs and contribute to their demise.

This is pretty much what happened the last time I saw this matchup. Whisper got too far out, Wes chased Whisper, and Etahn and the Zs crushed the TIEs. Was all over but the crying at that point.

FCS... and make sure to always Evade with her unless she is completely out of arc, so that you can start to stack those tokens!

How about Intelligence Agent + ACD + Elusiveness? I've used Elusiveness to good effect on a Phantom before, though, if we ever get Wave 5, Lone Wolf is going to rock for Phantoms.

How about Intelligence Agent + ACD + Elusiveness? I've used Elusiveness to good effect on a Phantom before, though, if we ever get Wave 5, Lone Wolf is going to rock for Phantoms.

I am not a big fan of not putting Vet Instincts on named Phantoms, and especially Whisper. She need that to overcome non-VI Han and anything else that would shoot her while she is decloaked.

I have actually played that phantom list (that's the list with a phantom i had played the most) vs Etahn Zwarm Buhallin, it is just untrue. Yes you will get critted, but 2 attack isn't amazing to really quickly demolish a Tie swarm. You are overrating crits and PS2, is not that kind of advantadge in a swarm vs swarm, which is a pillow fight for the most part, with the exception of the range engagements, where the PS1 can deny actions. The problem with etahn zwarm is exactly that it lacks firepower against high agility ships.

Most of the time the damage the phantom with FCS is able to put out and his lategame is just better than whatever the crits + etahn will do (since etahn has to turtle, or die).

Yes, i had played against people who had lost their phantom to my Wes + Wedge + Luke opportunist dudes, but that doesn't mean the phantom + 5 Ties should die to that. That's just bad play. You should be flanking with Ties and phantom, if they try to train your phantom, if you had been smart you will be able to get out unscathed while your Ties will chip out the ships.

And you are ignoring the evade that you are able to use while keeping firepower against most stuff (and specially, stuff that is actually dangerous), paired with the focus token and 4 dice makes

The core of the list is obviously:

Whisper (32) + VI (1) + ACD (4)

5x Academy Pilot (12)

This leaves 3 points to play with. Is it better to go for adding the Rebel Captive and give up any initiative bid? Or should I add an FCS or Tactician and keep a 1 point initiative bid?

I feel like Rebel Captive is the way to go. I think you drop an academy and go backstabber, and more toys for whisper (gunner, Sensor Jammer)

Definitely FCS for Whisper. for Echo it'll be a harder choice since RC will help Echo against Whisper, Soontir, and Han. RC for Whisper is nice but depends on your initiative bid. But when I didn't have FCS, my ability to deal a lot of damage with the phantom drops dramatically, especially when the life of your phantom is pretty limited in this turret heavy meta, you need to make every shot count.

I flown that exact list as well. FCS on Whisper, 1 point for initiative bidding. Against PS9 headaches like Soontir, Han etc, you have a bit of a chance in the initiative bidding war, so at the very least that 1 point can help go towards you choosing which style suits you more, shooting first and cloaking, or knowing where your enemy is and attempt arc dodging.

FCS is a must, allows Whisper to take Evade for action, then turtle up with cloak + Focus token from hitting the target after modifying your attack rolls with the TL from FCS.

EDIT: If you are considering Echo instead, Echo needs ACD + Recon Spec, so that's a basic 37pts. last 3pts I would suggest either Outmaneuver or Ruthlessness. Let's not kid ourselves, most ghostbusting lists are minimum PS9 + initiative bid, so Echo VI would not have any chance in a PS contest. May as well use some proper EPT instead of VI.

I flown that exact list as well. FCS on Whisper, 1 point for initiative bidding. Against PS9 headaches like Soontir, Han etc, you have a bit of a chance in the initiative bidding war, so at the very least that 1 point can help go towards you choosing which style suits you more, shooting first and cloaking, or knowing where your enemy is and attempt arc dodging.

FCS is a must, allows Whisper to take Evade for action, then turtle up with cloak + Focus token from hitting the target after modifying your attack rolls with the TL from FCS.

EDIT: If you are considering Echo instead, Echo needs ACD + Recon Spec, so that's a basic 37pts. last 3pts I would suggest either Outmaneuver or Ruthlessness. Let's not kid ourselves, most ghostbusting lists are minimum PS9 + initiative bid, so Echo VI would not have any chance in a PS contest. May as well use some proper EPT instead of VI.

I would have to slightly disagree with the Echo loadout. Just my personal opinion and experience playing Echo. I love Recon Spec in casual games, but against the PS9+ meta in tournaments, Recon Spec doesn't do me as much (with only 2 agility dice, 3 at best) as Rebel Captive does for me against the Soontir, Fat Han, and Whisper's out there.

VI is another one that's probably personal preference. I understand the PS8 won't win you against the PS9+ meta, but these days there are enough people playing the PS7-8 (Corran, Keyan, Horton, Super Dash, all without VI) meta that moving after them is equally painful. I've flown with Outmaneuver and Predator, and just didn't like the moving ahead of everyone part. Some people may be a lot better at doing so, but like I said, it's a personal preference. =)

I've flown Whisper + TIEs quite a bit now, winning two tournaments (16 players, 19 players). I used to swear by Rebel Captive, which was mainly because it seemed great in the Whisper mirror matchup. It happened only 1 game out of them all and wasn't as useful as I had thought. The captive didn't even stop Wes Janson R3A2 from sacrificing himself to mess up Whisper's ACD. (I lost this game, final round of a different tournament).

I'm thinking FCS would be better, for the initiative and increased firepower. It is such a bummer and generally derails your plans when Whisper whiffs an attack. When a TIE does, it is expected every now and then, but you really need those 4 dice to hit hard. In the Falcon meta, FCS makes them die a little faster, while Falcons generally ignore Rebel Captive.

There usually isn't much reason to NOT take Rebel Captive. It is just a solid card. Don't get me wrong, FCS great too, hard to decide.

One thing Rebel Captive DOES help with is those rounds you choose not to decloak. With 4 agility and a focus in defense, your opponent is basically ASKING for a free stress token. Id say, in the Han + VI matchup, it isn't a bad idea to remain cloaked for a few rounds anyways, unless you know you will be out of arc. You want those ties to wound Han before Whisper even considers shooting at him. The 2 upgrades just promote different play styles. FCS wants you shoot early in thr round to set up your TL shots, Rebel Captive is okay if you don't.

Not to mention the free counter to other Phantoms and anything with PTL. Phantom vs Phantom can be a real swingy, unpredictable matchup anyways, so why not make it easier for your ties to help hurt the Phantom?

Whisper vs Whisper.

Which one wins?

The one with a Rebel Captive.

Wow. I'm a bit surprised at the complete lack of consensus.

Wow. I'm a bit surprised at the complete lack of consensus.

Welcome to X-Wing

Wow. I'm a bit surprised at the complete lack of consensus.

That's because they're both perfectly good options.

Personally, I think a lot of people underestimate what stress does to your opponent. I also dislike the multiple-attack necessity for FCS, and think it makes your flying predictable. Others obviously like that it frees you up to evade while still having good attacks.

Neither is enough better than the other to say "This is the gold standard".

Having FCS AND RC is even better.

FCS is extremely useful against targets you can't really one-shot. You don't need to shoot them every turn, but having that TL on them so when you have the opportunity to shoot them again, you can make it count. That's what matters the most.

Very good against high HP ships like Y-Wing, B-Wing, Falcons, and hard to kill ones like Soontir and Whisper.

I have added FCS to this ship list and had it pay off big time. I have also had it pretty much not come into play. I haven't added RebCap though, so that might sway me some.

I say FCS because it has the capacity to change games based on my experience.

Jacob

You can't have FCS and RC on a 5 Tie + Whisper list Kryzak.

I am on the opposite spectrum Buhallin. People overestimate stress, specially if you can't deliver ions at the same time.

Whisper vs Whisper.

Which one wins?

The one with a Rebel Captive.

Whisper vs Falcon

Which one has better odds ?

The one with the FCS since he can evade and actually deal damage.

That's the funny thing about match ups. Now you may ask yourself which one is the most likely scenario, and which one will be less situational.

Also, if you had played phantom vs phantom, you would know that's false. Most of the time the one moving last wins if you know to properly arc dodge against a phantom, RC or not. You never joust other phantom, and if it has RC you will go against its escorts.

You can't have FCS and RC on a 5 Tie + Whisper list Kryzak.

I am on the opposite spectrum Buhallin. People overestimate stress, specially if you can't deliver ions at the same time.

Whisper vs Whisper.

Which one wins?

The one with a Rebel Captive.

Whisper vs Falcon

Which one has better odds ?

The one with the FCS since he can evade and actually deal damage.

That's the funny thing about match ups. Now you may ask yourself which one is the most likely scenario, and which one will be less situational.

Also, if you had played phantom vs phantom, you would know that's false. Most of the time the one moving last wins if you know to properly arc dodge against a phantom, RC or not. You never joust other phantom, and if it has RC you will go against its escorts.

Use your wisdom to become world champion

That's certainly constructive.

People overestimate stress, specially if you can't deliver ions at the same time.

So you use PtL as a standard on every ship that can carry it?