Honestly I don't think parodying the inclusive threads is trolling, it's showing a deep level of exasperation.

Parodying something when a few people are trying to have a mature discussion is rather immature. Especially where tone cannot be easily read.

I see. But implicity accusing complete strangers and a gaming company of having anti-woman stances and actions, as if the very concept "Correlation does not equal causation" is nonexistant, is the pinnacle of maturity?

Implicitly accusing?! Wow, that must have been implicit in a very bizarre way, as my OP in that thread explicitly praised both the community and FFG for their inclusive orientation.

And yet your thread title asks what we can do to be more gender inclusive, does it not? That implicitly means that there's something we as a community or FFG is not doing. That's implicit in the pretty normal non-bizarre way, actually.

Or was that not what you meant by the thread title?

I don't think that pointing out a gap is accusatory. I am not accusing FFG of hating their customers by asking if I can have a huge imperial ship. It is just a request for something that I find desirable.

On second thought best to just not say what I was gonna say cause you know it has nothing to do with X wing. Game On!

I don't think that pointing out a gap is accusatory. I am not accusing FFG of hating their customers by asking if I can have a huge imperial ship. It is just a request for something that I find desirable.

But that's not the same thing, is it? If you were however, to create a thread saying, "How can we get FFG to demonstrate their commitment to Imperial players?" You are implicitly stating that FFG favors rebels or imperials without directly saying so.

The fact that you may go in and praise FFG for their love of Imperials in the thread doesn't change the nature of the title.

By the way, I just want to point out, I am in no way saying Mikael or anyone else shouldn't make the threads they want. Just understand that some people may disagree and who are we to decide they can or can't make parody threads accordingly?

By the way, I just want to point out, I am in no way saying Mikael or anyone else shouldn't make the threads they want. Just understand that some people may disagree and who are we to decide they can or can't make parody threads accordingly?

It's rather simple. Recognize when a topic is fairly serious to those talking about it. Don't mock stuff people consider a serious issue, even if you disagree.

Seriously, this is interpersonal communication basics.

And yet your thread title asks what we can do to be more gender inclusive, does it not? That implicitly means that there's something we as a community or FFG is not doing. That's implicit in the pretty normal non-bizarre way, actually.

Or was that not what you meant by the thread title?

Maybe you have a different understanding of what the term 'more' means than I do. 'More' does not indicate that the initial value is zero or negative, just less than I think could be done.

In my posting I clearly spelled out my admiration for FFG and my positive presumption of the community. I stand my both, even if it's clear that there are members of the community who think that the current ratio is fine.

If you think there's something accusatory behind it, then maybe you feel guilty for some reason. Maybe that's why you're not taking the time to bother reading what I said beyond the headline. Maybe that's why you're jumping on a reactionary bandwagon. I can't tell. That's for you to think about of you like, or to pour more scorn on me for if you prefer.

By the way, I just want to point out, I am in no way saying Mikael or anyone else shouldn't make the threads they want. Just understand that some people may disagree and who are we to decide they can or can't make parody threads accordingly?

And I certainly have not reported any of the parody threads, nor have I said anything in them to shout them down. People disagreeing with me is fine. Making a parody of my point, if you think it's worth mockery, is fine. Given the context, that says more about you than it does about me or my point.

So just to be clear,

sigidi, you just referred to me as an 'it'?

You're done here.

I read the 'it' as the post, not the person. I could be wrong though.

you just referred to me as an 'it'?

I don't see any place that he refered to anyone as it. He referred to a thread as it.

He referred to the thread as an it. You would appear to be jumping to take offense.

So just to be clear,

sigidi, you just referred to me as an 'it'?

You're done here.

I read the 'it' as the post, not the person. I could be wrong though.

this

but your right, Im done here, back to playing a fun game with miniatures I play with friends, and anyone wanting to join. Being part of the problem *shrugs*

It's rather simple. Recognize when a topic is fairly serious to those talking about it. Don't mock stuff people consider a serious issue, even if you disagree.

Seriously, this is interpersonal communication basics.

So let me see if I understand this, and I'm sorry, I'm a little fuzzy on this interpersonal communication basics thing. If someone here were to post that the moon landing was faked (and there are people who seriously believe this), or they were to post that the world is flat (yep, some people believe that), or the holocaust was a hoax (that too), then I would be demonstrating terrific interpersonal communication skills by not openly mocking them?

Sorry, I'd rather have you think less of me.

It's rather simple. Recognize when a topic is fairly serious to those talking about it. Don't mock stuff people consider a serious issue, even if you disagree.

Seriously, this is interpersonal communication basics.

So let me see if I understand this, and I'm sorry, I'm a little fuzzy on this interpersonal communication basics thing. If someone here were to post that the moon landing was faked (and there are people who seriously believe this), or they were to post that the world is flat (yep, some people believe that), or the holocaust was a hoax (that too), then I would be demonstrating terrific interpersonal communication skills by not openly mocking them?

Sorry, I'd rather have you think less of me.

This, and the above by Sigidi.

In no way am I defending their actions as moral or just or good. My point was that unfortunately there is a culture in the US that allows it.

I want that aspect of our culture to change. Engaging directly works towards that goal.

I beleive that completely ignoring them does a better job at isolating their behavior than confronting them agressively. I understand your point about pointing out to others how irresponsible and wrong trolls are for their beahvior though.

Maybe an approach would be to adress the readers of the post directly and not the troll. maybe lead off with:

To those of you reading this post, here are the reasons why this type of behavior is undesirable: Point A. Point B. etc.

Then you are accomplishing your goal of awareness without directly talking to the troll. You are then basically ignoring them, but explaining why the message they are advancing is negative.

I understand you believe ignoring the trolls is better. I generally shy away from calling someone a troll until I have engaged them in conversation. My experience is that most are people with ill informed works views.

Mostly though even when they are just trolls the sociology supports my shortish add the more effective method of enacting change.

I don't expect everyone to do it but if we all did we would see a significant reduction in regressive crap.

My experience is that most are people with ill informed works views.

A troll is not just someone you disagree with, or someone being offensive.

A troll in this context is someone whose whole intention is to create an argument on a message board. Which is what the first post from Ribann was. He created yet another sockpuppet to start a crap storm here. He had no interest in discussion, he wasn't misguided, he wasn't even just being a jerk.

He started that thread with a single intention. The best way to deal with people like that is in fact to ignore them, because the whole purpose is to get attention. Trying to correct them, or calling them out simply does exactly what they want you to do.

So let me see if I understand this, and I'm sorry, I'm a little fuzzy on this interpersonal communication basics thing. If someone here were to post that the moon landing was faked (and there are people who seriously believe this), or they were to post that the world is flat (yep, some people believe that), or the holocaust was a hoax (that too), then I would be demonstrating terrific interpersonal communication skills by not openly mocking them?

You think asking for opinions on how our community can be more inclusive of women is on par with moon-landing and holocaust denial?

Okay - I'm pretty sure that that's not what you meant. So, I'll choose not to take that as your position.

So let me see if I understand this, and I'm sorry, I'm a little fuzzy on this interpersonal communication basics thing. If someone here were to post that the moon landing was faked (and there are people who seriously believe this), or they were to post that the world is flat (yep, some people believe that), or the holocaust was a hoax (that too), then I would be demonstrating terrific interpersonal communication skills by not openly mocking them?

You think asking for opinions on how our community can be more inclusive of women is on par with moon-landing and holocaust denial?

Okay - I'm pretty sure that that's not what you meant. So, I'll choose not to take that as your position.

That is not what I meant. I was specifically referring to Sithborg's comment of "Don't mock stuff people consider a serious issue, even if you disagree." and then claiming that was interpersonal communications basics.

Love your let's talk about series by the way.

That is not what I meant. I was specifically referring to Sithborg's comment of "Don't mock stuff people consider a serious issue, even if you disagree." and then claiming that was interpersonal communications basics.

Love your let's talk about series by the way.

You mean Michiel's 'Let's Discuss'? That's not mine, so I can't take credit.

That is not what I meant. I was specifically referring to Sithborg's comment of "Don't mock stuff people consider a serious issue, even if you disagree." and then claiming that was interpersonal communications basics.

Love your let's talk about series by the way.

You mean Michiel's 'Let's Discuss'? That's not mine, so I can't take credit.

Ha! I totally thought that was you. Oh well, I still like the series.

I like the part where the bad guys go away.

Think some trolling is just bad humor. Other times is is sarcasm that others just plain miss. (Wish there was a sarcasm font sometimes) Mostly it's dummies intentionally drawing the sensitive off-sides and others trying to be heroes.

If you feel someone is Trolling the best thing to due is ignore.

Trolling has nothing to do with humour, is about taking polarizing stances, often absurd, and defending it with even more absurd arguments while you make the readers believe that you truly believe what you are speaking about. It fuels on people answering, specially since it will spiral into more and more readers engaging into the discussion, some of them even trying to legitimate his point, and many will try to argue against it, which is why i disagree entirely with Stelar7.

It is better to point out the troll, treat him on third person, and move on while you make clear to other readers "beware, troll ahead", than to try to engage on a debate with the troll's argument. I would like to read the studies he is pointing out about "trolls" to be honest, i didn't even know it was a subject of research.

People often think trolling is being snarky, dismissive, or taking every subject humorously, which is wrong.

They flood this forum and all others and are the major reason life isn't as good as it could be in most categories. If you're wondering if I'm talking about you, think to yourself "Have I said something dismissive like 'There's no gender inequality in x-wing' or 'reverse sexism'" and then pat yourself on the back: you ARE the problem.

And with that last sentence I switched from reaching for the like button to the reply button.

So you're saying that the second sentence of this:

Also lol at the tired old boys getting so angry about having girl pilots. How many months do you wish to spend looking like the least bf material?

How charming.

...isn't sexist?

And the moment I accuse you of that, suddenly I'm lumped in with the blind misogynist horde, and I'm semi-expecting a response of that kind is what I'll get to this post.

There's a difference between assertion and aggression. Assertion is confident and forceful without being aggressive.

I called you out for "reverse sexism" (not a particularly apt phrase because it implies sexism is somehow monodirectional) not because I'm somehow blind to societal issues but because it's true. That was a sexist statement, as are several others you've made, and the way you use them while condemning sexism is infuriatingly hypocritical. You use, knowingly or not, the fact that you're supporting a cause nobody opposes who isn't either a dinosaur or someone best described by the words of Chris Kluwe as a shield to protect you from reproach. If someone tells you you're being aggressive or rude or sexist or disagrees on a detail or in your words "calls someone out on their BS" that doesn't mean they're opposed to your wider point. The fact that I call you (or anyone else for that matter) out when you use the protection of a valid point to make jabs at other members out doesn't mean I'm opposed to it and it does not mean I'm trying to censor your views.

In my view, everyone needs to sit back and take a leaf out of Mikael's book: he's got the right way of doing things when it comes to etiquette this forum and we could all stand to learn from him.

Is it worth mentioning that Mikael's thread didn't get locked until a very hostile poster decided to call a bunch of people 'dim witted'? That's not acceptable even without being directed at a specific gender.

Indeed. I was making one final post that didn't get in, it was in response to Mikael asking if we should just accept defeatism, and declare ourselves powerless. I actually had a contstructive post that I would like to post here, because I thinks it's something we can all do to increase the diversity of gamers in general:

And you shouldn't accept defeatism, nor assume that we are powerless to change things.

The best way I've found to get women gaming is through gaming with my kids and our friends, I've swapped "normal" games like Monopoly, Sorry!, Trivial Pursuit for vastly superior games like Pandemic, Resistance, and Red Dragon Inn.

Last night we lost power (which means GAME NIGHT! for the family, and we love board games). We played a board game with miniatures and tiles and had a blast. My kids begged my wife to let us play again tonight, to which she agreed. My wife was absolutely shocked when she saw the cover on Dungeons & Dragons Wrath of Ashardalon.

So if you want to increase the inclusiveness, play these games with the women in your life, especially the younger crowd. Swap the "Dora the Explorer Candy Land" for Castle Panic (which my nieces LOVE). Ditch the "Tinkerbell Chutes and Ladders" for King of Tokyo (which my nieces REALLY REALLY LOVE). Face it, at the end of the day, nobody's afraid of being mocked for playing Yahtzee, so swap one dice game for another. Show them that these types games are really fun (and frankly way better) then anything Parker Brothers does. That's the first step, and I'm doing my part.

Indeed. I was making one final post that didn't get in, it was in response to Mikael asking if we should just accept defeatism, and declare ourselves powerless. I actually had a contstructive post that I would like to post here, because I thinks it's something we can all do to increase the diversity of gamers in general:

Hey man,

Thanks for your constructive post. I'm going to respect FFG's wishes and not try to bring broader social discussions to this forum.

I did not think that the topic that I brought up would inflame the controversy that it did, and it was educational (for me) while it lasted. So, while there were some moments of aggravation, I'm glad it happened to open my eyes to reality.

As some have thought, I'm not going to try to get any publications out of it,... ... that one still floors me.