Perhaps the topic it's name should be:

Do people damage themselves when they deploy topics about a Nurgling?

@ktom,

Honestly, don't you think that if you and others have to jump through so many hurdles in order to explain a single card and its effects that there might be something not quite clear about this card? (specifically its affects and its triggering ability)

I'm asking this with upmost candor.

While I am absolutely not contesting ktom's read on these cards, I gotta say I agree.

"Move" is one of those game terms that needed explicit definition in the rrg. I mean, yes, its there, but its not defined in that section.

Next version of RRG should say "a card moves when it is committed to a Planet, when it uses Mobile, or when a card effect specifically uses the word move . Deploying, retreating, routing and coming into play are not moves."

@ktom,

Honestly, don't you think that if you and others have to jump through so many hurdles in order to explain a single card and its effects that there might be something not quite clear about this card? (specifically its affects and its triggering ability)

I'm asking this with upmost candor.

I would argue the difficulty lies in the details of the timing rules than with the card itself. The one card just happens to involve a bunch of advanced timing rules which are hard to separate and explain individually in these "multiple Nurglings moving from HQ" scenarios. I think that if this card had come out a year from now, after people had had the chance to learn these advanced rules and their implications one-at-a-time, we wouldn't be having this kind of trouble putting it all together.

Of course, the other thing that would probably had helped is if myself and others had started the explanations with easier, more straightforward scenarios and built to the excessively complicated ones and their full implications.

I have to agree that there is something wrong with the way the card is presented. Most people don't go on these forums and have no idea about these discussions. I am going to guess that players are going to be confused and play the card incorrectly.

Sure, we can go back-and-forth about how the rules explain how it should work or it really isn't that complicated, but the fact is, people will not understand how to play this card correctly and that is a problem. I can imagine some groups just skipping this warlord altogether because nobody is sure how it works, and that's too bad.

I would have preferred something along the lines of Action : Exhaust this card to do 1 point of damage to all units at this planet, and have the thing only have one life. The whole simultaneous movement and who damages who when and does he still damage you if he's killed is just too messy and confusing, especially this early in the game's life.

Edited just to add that I also would have liked to see any unit with the Nurgle trait immune to the damage from this card.

Of course, the other thing that would probably had helped is if myself and others had started the explanations with easier, more straightforward scenarios and built to the excessively complicated ones and their full implications.

I believe that you and others who posted with clarifications on this thread concerning this card have done a good job. It is just that each time I read someone else's post I become confused again, which is unsettling.

... The whole simultaneous movement and who damages who when and does he still damage you if he's killed is just too messy and confusing, especially this early in the game's life.

Bingo!

This is what I was thinking when the issue of this card's abilities came up a few weeks back.

If, on the other hand, had this card been released in a later pack, it would have been easier to digest due to the card having followed established new releases... I don't know if I'm making sense with my vague description here.

Let me just add that I truly can't imagine a more 'complicated' card to be released for this game in the near future. I hope my imagination holds.

Yeah honestly, Even Timezero's homebrew Mournival card is easier to understand and that thing let's you begin play with 4 small comanders

Heck, I'd even be happy with an "ignore this ability during the command phase" caveat!

@Papa Midnight: my earlier post was indeed aimed at you (it was also a bit sarcastic).

As for it being too early to release such a card, I'll bet, from AGoT experience, that it would still have provoked much head-scratching if it had been released 2 years from now, not about the move/deploy distinction (which would indeed have been widely understood, so that only deliberate misunderstanding would account for trying to blur it), but about the timing of Forced Reactions and do Forced Reactions on destroyed cards still go off.

As for it being too early to release such a card, I'll bet, from AGoT experience, that it would still have provoked much head-scratching if it had been released 2 years from now, ...

That would be what I was attempting to address. If any given card gives this much of a headache to the gaming body at large, then there certainly must be something 'off' about it, no?

Again, my confusion at this card's abilities and how it would interact with other KG Nurgling cards is where all of my questions are stemming from. And after reading all of the other postings on this thread, I think that I'm not the only one in this boat.

I'll be honest: I'm confused too. I can understand the Ragnar examples well, because it all happens during the commitment phase and that is what his ability specifies. But the nurglings and these retrograde effects that still fire off even though they are not at the planet, but then they are, so now it counts, give me a break!

I'm considering a house ruling that if the nurglings aren't at the planet already, the reaction doesn't go off. It should simplify things, even if it isn't the way FFG intended for them to work. Of course, the problem comes in when you are outside the circle of people you usually play with.

But the nurglings and these retrograde effects that still fire off even though they are not at the planet, but then they are, so now it counts, give me a break!

I bet you use other of these "retrograde" effects without even thinking about it. For example, Kith's Khymeramasters. How is that reactionto "After this unit comes into play" counting after the triggering condition causes the Khymeramaster to enter play very much different from the Nurglings reaction to "After a unit moves to this planet" counting after the triggering condition causes the Nurgling to move to the planet?

It's the same principle: The Khymeramasters' reaction wasn't even in play when the player action (to play the unit) started, but it is in play when the reaction is triggered. That's not firing off "in retrograde" - it's simply that the action to put the unit into play is complete and the unit is in play before the reaction to it entering play tries to fire off in the first place. There's no problem with that, right?

Well, moving the Nurglings from HQ is the same thing. The Nurgling is not at the planet that the units move to when the "move" effect starts, but it is at at the planet when the reaction is triggered. That's not firing off "in retrograde" - it's simply that the action to move the unit to the planet is complete and the Nurgling is there at the planet before the reaction to anything moving to the planet (including the Nurgling) tries to fire off in the first place.

Another example would be Syren Zythlex and Sicarius's Chosen. Zythlex is at Planet #3. The Chosen is played at Planet #2 and uses its reaction to pull Zythlex over and pop her for 1. If Zythlex is not not killed by this, she can now use her own reaction to exhaust a unit deployed at "this planet" on the Chosen. That makes sense, doesn't it? She isn't using a "retrograde" effect because "this planet" is defined by where she is when she actually triggers her Response (Planet #2), not by where she is when the deployment action initiates (Planet #3). This is exactly what happens with the Nurglings coming from HQ. "This planet" is defined by where they are when their response trigger (the planet they follow their warlord to), not by where they are when the commit/move action initiates (HQ, so no planet).

So you see, this interaction with the Nurglings isn't nearly as unusual or exceptional as people seem think.

I'm considering a house ruling that if the nurglings aren't at the planet already, the reaction doesn't go off. It should simplify things, even if it isn't the way FFG intended for them to work. Of course, the problem comes in when you are outside the circle of people you usually play with.

If this was already part and parcel of the card, things would have been (imo) much more easier to understand and go forth with. Just my opinion related to this specific card.

If I could assign more than one 'Like' for your post, I would have.

@ktom,

I understand what you are describing in your post above (#87).

However, I don't believe the effects (or is it 'affects'?) of KG Nurglings are equivalent to Kith's. Similar, yes. But rather unusual and not following the norm of released cards.

Again, my opinion.

I understand what you are describing in your post above (#87).

However, I don't believe the effects (or is it 'affects'?) of KG Nurglings are equivalent to Kith's. Similar, yes. But rather unusual and not following the norm of released cards.

The example is primarily to show that people instinctively understand reactions are qualified at they time they are triggered and not based on what the game looked like when the triggering condition occurred.

How do you feel about the Zythlex/Chosen example? Like the Nurglings, a change in position between the triggering condition happening and the reaction triggering changes whether or not the reaction can be used?

Perhaps it is a lack of understanding on my part. There are things that are very different about this game, as opposed to other CCGs or even LCGs. Moving to different points of an in-play area is one of them. Invasion had different areas too, but there wasn't nearly as much moving around or moving interaction.

The Sythlex/Chosen example would have gotten me also, I would not have realized that it works that way. I would have thought that it needed to be at the planet beforehand to work. I understand your explanation of why it works, as I think I understand why Nurglings work, but speaking strictly for myself, I find it counterintuitive.

Kith's is far easier to understand because it states that it must wait until after it comes into play. And that's far easier to apply. It's either coming into play from your hand, deck or discard and into the battlefield. Which is a very big distinction. Nurglings and Sythlex state "at this planet", something that is changing on the fly because of the moving interactions. That is the crux of my confusion and why I find it counterintuitive. Kith's ability specifies a change in state. The other two must be navigated through a change in location, which is not implicitly covered and requires very precise knowledge of interactions and timing.

There are things that are very different about this game, as opposed to other CCGs or even LCGs.

This was at the heart of my earlier comment about why I thought the Nurglings would not have caused the problems they are causing today if they had been introduced a year from now. Right now, because it is so new and we haven't been through either a competitive or a league season yet, a lot of what is "intuitive" has more to do with our experience with other games. For example, I would imagine the "location" aspects of this game are easier for people coming from L5R to wrap their heads around than for people coming from AGoT, or even Star Wars. Given time, the "muscle memory" for interactions within the Conquest rules will develop and things like the Nurglings won't feel quite as "unnatural". At least, that is what I am expecting.

In the meantime, I would suggest thinking of "location" the same way you would think of any other card state (e.g., ready or exhausted, in play or out of play, damages or undamaged, etc.). I believe that when you think of "after a unit moves to this planet" in the same sort of way you think of a more obvious change in state like "after a unit comes into play," a great deal of those precise timing interactions come into focus.

People seem to be having trouble differentiating between a trigger and the card it's printed on. Nowhere in the rules does it say a card must still be present in order for its trigger to go off. If, if we accept that KN will trigger for itself upon being moved (and I think FFG owes us a more direct answer in a forthcoming FAQ), then all of the simultaneous triggers will resolve no matter what order you assign damage in. For example, if both players commit 4 KNs each, then every unit being committed is going to take 8 damage, plain and simple. A trigger does not vanish simply because the player with initiative kills off all the remaining nurglings before they can deal their damage. That is the very reason why we have rules governing nested and simultaneous effects.

Nowhere in the rules does it say a card must still be present in order for its trigger to go off. ... A trigger does not vanish simply because the player with initiative kills off all the remaining nurglings before they can deal their damage.

Well, there is this bit from the RRG, p. 8, entry on "In Play and and Out of Play":

• "Card abilities can only be initiated or affect the game from an in play area unless they specifically refer to being used from an out of play area, or require that the card be out of play for the ability to resolve."

The card is in play when the ability is initiated, or else there would be no simultaneous trigger. Order of resolution has absolutely nothing to do with whether a card creating a triggering event persists beyond the initiation of subsequent abilities. The passage you quoted also refers only to abilities, not the card itself, which further reinforces my point.

There is certainly no contradiction in my above example. You can resolve the abilities in whatever order you want, but they will resolve. It doesn't matter if you pile 8 damage on the very first nurgling, there is still 8 damage waiting to be resolved for every other unit being committed. Don't confuse the existence of a triggered ability, which happens as soon as the triggering event occurs (here, commitment/moving), with its resolution.

The card is in play when the ability is initiated, or else there would be no simultaneous trigger. Order of resolution has absolutely nothing to do with whether a card creating a triggering event persists beyond the initiation of subsequent abilities.

You seem to be confusing the creation of a "triggering event" with the initiation of the Nurgling's actual reaction.

RRG, p. 13: "It is possible for multiple reactions to be executed from the same triggering condition.

I'll refute your argument with more depth later, when I have more time. Until then, I'll refer you to my previous post, which still covers your gaps in rules interpretation. Consider especially the last sentence.

Don't confuse the existence of a triggered ability, which happens as soon as the triggering event occurs (here, commitment/moving), with its resolution.

I read your statement that a "triggered ability happens" as soon as the triggering event occurs as meaning that the triggered reaction ability initiates as soon as the triggering event occurs. This is just false. Reactions initiate when a players chooses to initiate them.

Given that the RRG describes reactions as optional, occur after their triggering event occurs, are "used" in an alternating fashion by the players, and resolved in their entirety before the next one is triggered and resolved, you're going to need something pretty convincing out of the rules documents to support this idea that all possible reactions trigger at the same time.

Even Forced Reactions like the Nurglings, which admittedly are not optional when their triggering conditions occur, are still considered triggered abilities and must follow all the other timing rules for reactions, nesting, etc. -- including the "first in, first out" timing and resolution of the first before the triggering of the second when being executed from the same triggering event.

They all trigger simultaneously because they commit/move simultaneously. That is the triggering event.

I want to ask something. If the wording was: "KN deals one damage to EACH unit that moves to this planet". Would then a million reactions trigger? Would the player with the initiative still be able to abuse this card? Would it lose any power or fluff or become broken?

There is no abuse besides being able to choose what order you want to resolve damage in, which would only have an impact if there are other cards that have effects dependent upon suffering damage. There's hardly an advantage to be had, apart from a few situational ones. Bear in mind we're still working off the assumption that they damage themselves (and everything else) when they move, which may not be the case.