Mechanically Force Power resistance is:

-None. Target is subject to what is rolled on the Force Power check.

or

-Opposed skill check. The target's skill provides a difficulty for the Combined Force Power check.

For the opposed check either there are specific rules for some powers or on page 195 it gives guidelines for resisting Force Powers in general.

I think it’s a good beginning but a bit lacking for my tastes. I don’t mind giving the GM discretion, but to be fair to the players I think they should be able to rely on more consist rulings when using something so essential to the game as Force Powers.

But my main concern is the rules recommend the wrong mechanic for resisting Force Power checks.

Here are the two main reasons:

1. I’d like to see some mechanics that weaken/lessen Force Power use against Force Users, like we see in the source. I’d like to see more emphasis on duels deciding conflicts, with duels limiting Force Power use. “It is obvious that this contest cannot be decided by our knowledge of the Force.”

2. Using only skills as a resistance does not necessarily reflect strength in the Force (as Force Rating does).

My proposal is to add to that sidebar a Basic Power that comes with being Force Sensitive:

The player may commit a number of Force dice up to half his Force Rating (rounded down). Any Force Power Checks directed against him remove a number of Force dice from the pool equal to the number of Force dice committed (to a minimum of 1).

Edit: I think this first proposal is a bit much to manage and limits Force Powers a bit too much so I'm changing what we do to to the following. I'd still like to see a higher Force Rating provide some sort of defense in the game (not just skills) so:

When a Force User must make a combined check using a Force Power that is targeting another character, they must upgrade the difficulty once if the target has a higher Force Rating.

This is minimally disruptive as far as just plugging in and not changing trees and adversaries and all.

Let me explain why.

Buried in that sidebar on page 195 are guidelines that say a Force User generally resists with Discipline. That makes sense if you are going to use a skill. You should not use Yoda’s athletics to oppose a Force Move disarm attempt on him.

Now the problem is that Discipline, while a fine mechanic for determining how good the character is at focus/control/mastery/etc. of his Force power, it is not a reflection of how strong/powerful they are in the Force once they successfully do so (which I see Force Ratting reflecting). So a target with a Force Rating of 2 and a target with a Force Rating of 5 with the same Discipline resist the same. I’d like to see the resistance vary for these two. Just as two Force Users with the same Discipline but one with a Force Rating of 2 and one with a Force Rating of 5 do not use powers at the same level, neither should they resist them at the same level.

Some things I see from this:

1. More tactical options based on a very simple mechanic. Gauging how much to use will be interesting and suspenseful.

2. Force Powers against Force Users will be toned down a bit leading to more duels and fewer quick Force Power takedowns like Influence+Strength.

3. More powerful Force users are better at resisting Force Powers.

I would change your suggestion slightly, because say a Force power originally targets another character (say that lowly non-Force-sensitive scoundrel in the corner), the Force user makes his check and rolls enough Force points to add additional targets so he tries to hit you, the Force user who is resisting the Force. You can't retroactively remove those Force dice, you are simply collateral damage.

Resist the Force--Ongoing effect: Commit a number of Force dice no greater than Force rating (or half or whatever). A Force user requires 1 additional Force point per Force die committed to Resist the Force to target you with a Force power.

Yeah I thought of that too but didn't want to make it too complicated. I figure targeting multiples means you have to roll against the toughest like autofire and the text in Influence>Control. So if you include the Force User remove the dice. And I make them name the targets before the check but we're in a grey area there.

Consular Healer and Sentinel Shadow have ways to resist the force... If you want an alternate mechanic to resist the force, don't make rules that copy or surpass the Healer's and Shadow's talents.

Calming aura would still work as it does and might be more powerful. My premise is that the existing rules for Force users resisting force powers should take force rating into consideration and not just discipline.

I can appreciate what you're trying to do with opposing force powers, but I think the RAW right now is perfectly fine for them.

For one, Force Users adding their force rating to the roll kind of makes it too skewed towards high end force users, and leaves non-FU characters SOL. Things should remain relatively balanced in that regard. Considering how difficult it can be to get higher Force Ratings, it's a rather precious resource to be constantly committing to so many things.

Secondly, I agree in a way that force rating details a character's potency with the force, but it isn't so much skill in the force so much as a character's connection. Using just skills and characteristics as is would be perfectly fine. You can use relevant skills that you and the players think would better apply to the opposed check.

I just keep things simple for the most part. I have a sort of chart in my head I should really codify for my own game. Pretty much I leave it that anyone can use discipline to both activate and resist force powers if necessary, but for certain powers I will allow additional skills to be used instead depending on the narrative. If someone uses a move power, then it could be resisted with discipline, and in addition depending on circumstance, it can be resisted with athletics or even resilience.

Calming aura would still work as it does and might be more powerful. My premise is that the existing rules for Force users resisting force powers should take force rating into consideration and not just discipline.

So just add a number of upgrades to the defender's Discipline equal to his FR.

For one, Force Users adding their force rating to the roll kind of makes it too skewed towards high end force users, and leaves non-FU characters SOL.

Actually that's one of the things I was thinking about. If your party has a Force User then the NPC will probably have to commit some Force dice in defense. Thus they are hitting with less Force Power whether the target is a Force user or non Force user PC. And anyway I want to say again that all the other Force resistance rules still apply so they will defend as normal against less Force Dice. It actually give the non-Force users cover.

Considering how difficult it can be to get higher Force Ratings, it's a rather precious resource to be constantly committing to so many things.

Again the normal Force resistance rules still apply so if you don't want to commit Force dice in defense, then you do not have to and you resist RAW.

Let me give an example. In my campaign it's not unreasonable that there will be a lot of sessions even after the PCs have reached the 200-250 XP mark. (And that's not even starting at Knight level.)

With that sort of build you can make a Sage with 3-4 Force Dice pretty easily and have plenty of room for other toys.

With Force is my Ally and a few upgrades to Influence they can potentially do 32 unsoakable strain in a turn. Probably like 16 reliably.

Now the base Influence power asks for no resistance. That just happens. I'm fine with that on Minions.

Rivals, so be it, but the PC with the shiney lightsaber is left standing there. So maybe sometimes I give the Fallen Apprentice Rival resistance in the form of an opposed skill check. There's a lot of metagame thinking brought about by that, and even then they might still get hit--probably 50% of the time.

So I always give the Nemesis the opposed check but they are going to get hit. Why ever go to the saber?

And I'm only half way through my campaign. Force ratings are only going up from there.

Calming aura would still work as it does and might be more powerful. My premise is that the existing rules for Force users resisting force powers should take force rating into consideration and not just discipline.

So just add a number of upgrades to the defender's Discipline equal to his FR.

That's funny because we thought of that at first but decided it does not scale and brings about a lot of despair.

If a target has a Discipline of 3 and Will of 3, then the pool they are rolling against is 3 challenge dice. That's the way the game works now and I'm not saying to change that. I just want to add Force rating to resistance (and at a cost of committing it, not as a freebie). At first I was thinking upgrade like you suggest but with a Force Rating of 4 that would be 5 challenge dice and that's a bit too crazy.

Plus we are trying out allowing a Force User who has committed dice in defense to spend two despair to rebuke the power. Consequences for using powers against a Force user way stronger than you. So go to the LS and let the non-Force users shine too.

Updated premise: Force user's resistance to Force Powers should include Force rating at a cost. Other PCs should resist just as the rules say now.

Consequences: Force Powers that target a PC (which is not all of them) toned down when deciding big confrontations between Force Users. More lightsaber like in source. Cover for non-Force using PCs too.

Let me give an example. In my campaign it's not unreasonable that there will be a lot of sessions even after the PCs have reached the 200-250 XP mark. (And that's not even starting at Knight level.)

With that sort of build you can make a Sage with 3-4 Force Dice pretty easily and have plenty of room for other toys.

With Force is my Ally and a few upgrades to Influence they can potentially do 32 unsoakable strain in a turn. Probably like 16 reliably.

You do know you need at least another spec to get 4 Force Rating... Getting both Force Rating in Sage costs 135, another spec costs 20, and getting that other Force Rating is at least 90 (in the healer spec), for a total of 245 for Force Rating of 4 and no skills, dedication or power bought.

Also.... How do you do 32 unsoakable strain a turn ???

If you use the Influence power to strain a mind, with 4 Force Rating, you need 2 pips on each dice, that's 8 pips for 2 strain each doing 16... if you use Force is my Ally, you can do it again for another 16 for a total of 32 once per session, But you need to have golden luck to pull this off... scoring white pips is below 50%... on average, with 4 Force dices, you'll get 4 white pips, dealing 8 strain.

Protect is a good Force power to resist attacks... that could be an option to resist force powers.

It just doesn't work with Move.

You do know you need at least another spec to get 4 Force Rating... Getting both Force Rating in Sage costs 135, another spec costs 20, and getting that other Force Rating is at least 90 (in the healer spec), for a total of 245 for Force Rating of 4 and no skills, dedication or power bought.

Also.... How do you do 32 unsoakable strain a turn ???

If you use the Influence power to strain a mind, with 4 Force Rating, you need 2 pips on each dice, that's 8 pips for 2 strain each doing 16... if you use Force is my Ally, you can do it again for another 16 for a total of 32 once per session, But you need to have golden luck to pull this off... scoring white pips is below 50%... on average, with 4 Force dices, you'll get 4 white pips, dealing 8 strain.

Protect is a good Force power to resist attacks... that could be an option to resist force powers.

It just doesn't work with Move.

I really appreciate the feedback. Thanks for writing.

I agree that it's probably like 6-8 unsoakable strain that's a pretty reliable proposition for that build (and double for one turn per session). FWIW I did mean 200-250 XP earned after character build but I did not make that clear.

I agree that it might take long to get there for many campaigns, but not for some, and that many players will not build PCs with this focus. But there are a lot of other examples (Move, Unleash, Harm) and I guarantee my players will have 4, 5, 6 Force Ratings by at least the last third (maybe 10-12 sessions) of our campaign.

I run a campaign that might be half way through and some players have earned 360 XP (on top of starting XP). Combat is already pretty crazy without adding Force Powers to the equation.

My point is that you do not have to reach too far for examples of how many conflicts will boil down to quick Force Power battles by mid campaign and I'd like to see that toned down. I'd rather see some more strategy here and Lightsabers and non-Force Power attackers get a little love.

Protect is good and it does give me some pause but will not be universally available and takes a turn (edit: action) to activate every round.

The questions I'm getting at are:

Is the concept "It is obvious that this contest cannot be decided by our knowledge of the Force” important to model?

If so, does this system get there? I think if favors Force Powers that cannot be resisted as much as in the source material.

It sounds like you disagree with my conclusions on both but that's the crux of my discussion. Thanks again for writing back.

I think your main problem usagrandprix is that you're trying to force a simulationist approach to what is a non-simulationist game system.

The current method of an opposed check works fine, particularly if the GM allows some leeway into what skills the defender gets to use based upon the power in question.

The only addition I've made for my own games is to require the target to flip a Destiny Point in order to make it an opposed check rather than just getting to announce they are going to resist.

Our group just gives all players resistance, and essentially any NPC with the adversary talent the ability to resist.

we haven't really found any issues with the opposed checks.

Calming aura would still work as it does and might be more powerful. My premise is that the existing rules for Force users resisting force powers should take force rating into consideration and not just discipline.

So just add a number of upgrades to the defender's Discipline equal to his FR.

I took your idea and modified it a bit:

When a Force User must make a combined check using a Force Power that is targeting another character, they must upgrade the difficulty once if the target has a higher Force Rating.

Thanks a ton for the suggestion.

Hmm... that may be a bit much given that you also have the option to have an opposed check. Better make that either or.

I also would like to draw your attention to the Enhance force power. If you base the opposed check on Athletics or Resilience, you may have a way to add Force Dice to the pool without tweaking the rules. Granted, you would need to activate Enhance as an out-of-turn incidental, but you could, say, spend a Destiny point to fudge that part.

Hmm... that may be a bit much given that you also have the option to have an opposed check. Better make that either or.

I also would like to draw your attention to the Enhance force power. If you base the opposed check on Athletics or Resilience, you may have a way to add Force Dice to the pool without tweaking the rules. Granted, you would need to activate Enhance as an out-of-turn incidental, but you could, say, spend a Destiny point to fudge that part.

How would you be able to tell PC and NPC Force dice apart in this instance?

Also, the rules for Enhance are "when making an Athletics (etc) check," so the trigger there the skill check, which might or might not be an action on the player's turn.

hmm... that's what happens when you armchair these kinds of problems. In my defense, I imagined the resistance roll being the green an yellow one, so to speak - I tend to switch active and passive party for contested rolls so that my PCs roll green and yellow. I admit that I didn't really think twice about both sides rolling Force dice...

maybe add the difference in FD to the party with the higher Force rating's roll?

maybe add the difference in FD to the party with the higher Force rating's roll?

With Force points cancelling each other out, I assume? How might you handle the spending of Strain to generate Fore points from black pips (or white pips in the case of the dark side user)?

I'm also toying with having the Adversary talent apply to opposed checks if the adversary has a higher Force Rating.

Or maybe a "Force Adversary" rating that applies to opposed Force Power checks.

While I know this isn't strictly correct RAW, our group has decided that any check made in combat that directly affects an opponent or target is considered a combat check, thus adversary applies.

This of course doesn't make them combat skills, but it is still a combat check, for the purposes of adversary. Perhaps that's stretching the utility of adversary a bit, which is really a simplified version of dodge/side step/defensive stance. Our group likes it, as it really makes adversary style opponents challenging and enhances those moments with more despair possibilities.

YMMV.