The Empire's identity lies in cheap, disposable, unshielded, agile and UNIFORM fighters - aka the TIE series.

The "unshielded, cheap, uniform, disposable" label applies to 3 out of 9 ships, which is hard to justify as a defining feature, and further, the uniform and disposable part really only applies to 2 of those 3 (the Interceptor wants to be free, man!)

Fact of the matter is, Imperial ships have shields now. Take out the large ships and you still only have 3 out of 6 fighters without shields (and all of them belong to the TIE series).

So, to come full circle, while some people worry about how the Scum will be different from Rebels, I think the greater concern is what will happen to the Empire, what with not having any real unifying identity or theme besides the names of the ships.

The Empire lost its unique stake in disposable ships once the Z-95 hit (and now the Scyk), and it doesn't do space superiority as well as the Rebels, so...there's one ship that exemplifies technological might, that's something that they could emphasize in later releases.

But the pickings appear to be slim.

They could bring back cheap and disposable, though. Bombers (which might get some support release anyways) can fit into Fighter swarms, points-wise, and releasing another cheap ship would go a long way towards revitalizing the old tried-and-true Imperial ways. The Empire could field the most varied swarms, which it already sort of does via mini-swarms, but a refreshing third full-swarm option could do just the trick.

But considering the anti-swarm lengths they've already gone to, I don't see it happening.

How lucky, that may be true in your planet.... But in mine, from the eight ships available to the empire, only 4 see consistent usage, which are the ubiquitous TIE Fighter, the Firespray, the Lambda and the Phantom. The other 4 are hardly played, if played at all. Some Soontirs here and there, and that's all.

So I get precisely the opposite impression to you, those other 4 ships are hardly present in the current meta. Imperials are only using regularly half of their arsenal. The other half is directly considered not worthy, or at least, not worthy without weird combinations.

But isn't that the fault of the players themselves? If the players in your area are more concerned with (what they think) will give them a victory instead of what will be fun to play, then that's up to them - it's that game that's at fault.

I played in a 22 player tournament at the weekend. For the Imperials, the most common list was probably a combination of Defender/Phantom with Soontir Fel and a Shuttle (at least three lists), but the mix of builds was really quite varied. A mini TIE Swarm with a Vader Advanced did quite well. There were all interceptor lists, various mini swarms, bombers... the only thing which didn't appear to be present was the full TIE swarm.

If players only ever consider fielding the WAAC builds, that's to their own detriment.

The sky isn't falling, but the Empire is certainly looking awefully grey right now.

The Empire always looks grey. Or blue/grey, at a push.

If you're right, then the Empire's identity in this game has either eroded completely or will develop no further.

The "unshielded, cheap, uniform, disposable" label applies to 3 out of 9 ships, which is hard to justify as a defining feature, and further, the uniform and disposable part really only applies to 2 of those 3 (the Interceptor wants to be free, man!)

Fact of the matter is, Imperial ships have shields now. Take out the large ships and you still only have 3 out of 6 fighters without shields (and all of them belong to the TIE series).

How lucky, that may be true in your planet.... But in mine, from the eight ships available to the empire, only 4 see consistent usage, which are the ubiquitous TIE Fighter, the Firespray, the Lambda and the Phantom. The other 4 are hardly played, if played at all. Some Soontirs here and there, and that's all.

So I get precisely the opposite impression to you, those other 4 ships are hardly present in the current meta. Imperials are only using regularly half of their arsenal. The other half is directly considered not worthy, or at least, not worthy without weird combinations.

But isn't that the fault of the players themselves? If the players in your area are more concerned with (what they think) will give them a victory instead of what will be fun to play, then that's up to them - it's that game that's at fault.

I played in a 22 player tournament at the weekend. For the Imperials, the most common list was probably a combination of Defender/Phantom with Soontir Fel and a Shuttle (at least three lists), but the mix of builds was really quite varied. A mini TIE Swarm with a Vader Advanced did quite well. There were all interceptor lists, various mini swarms, bombers... the only thing which didn't appear to be present was the full TIE swarm.

If players only ever consider fielding the WAAC builds, that's to their own detriment.

The sky isn't falling, but the Empire is certainly looking awefully grey right now.

The Empire always looks grey. Or blue/grey, at a push.

If you're right, then the Empire's identity in this game has either eroded completely or will develop no further.

The "unshielded, cheap, uniform, disposable" label applies to 3 out of 9 ships, which is hard to justify as a defining feature, and further, the uniform and disposable part really only applies to 2 of those 3 (the Interceptor wants to be free, man!)

Fact of the matter is, Imperial ships have shields now. Take out the large ships and you still only have 3 out of 6 fighters without shields (and all of them belong to the TIE series).

I think you may have missed the point. The OP was talking about the Empire potentially "losing it's identity". I stated that the Empire's identity lies with the TIE series - of which, the Bombers, Interceptors and Fighters are STILL the most ubiquitous due to their relatively cheap points. Are you seriously trying to tell me that those three ships combined do not account for the majority of ships featured in Imperial builds? Sure, we now have the elite, shielded TIE Advanced, Defender and Phantom as well (which still contribute to the Empire's overall identity), but they are often run in conjunction with the originals. Rexler & interceptors. Phantom & mini swarm.

The fact remains, Wave 6 is not going to affect the "identity" of Imperial lists in any way. The arrival of the Decimator in Wave 5 might, however.

Then it's going to be " A big gunboat with a small swarm of tie fighters" or "gunboat escorting shuttle". Both very Imperialy.

I think you may have missed the point.

...

The fact remains, Wave 6 is not going to affect the "identity" of Imperial lists in any way. The arrival of the Decimator in Wave 5 might, however.

The TIE fighter is the only example you have that is supporting the theme you identified. TIE Bombers are rarely used, and mostly as ordinance carriers (although as I mentioned, they do make nice swarm craft). TIE Interceptors are mostly run as elites. TIE Fighters are ubiquitous, you're right. Which means that the Empire is basically supporting its identity only with what it was given in Wave 1, and back then, it meant something more to be the faction that has the agile, cheap ships.

Here's my point: As the Empire uses more "elite, expensive" craft, then you have an identity that's eating itself away from the inside. As other factions gain the "cheap, disposable" craft, then you have an identity that's getting progressively more meaningless.

In fact, Wave 6 does erode the Imperial identity. The Scyk and the Z-95 both belong to Scum now (as do cheap Y-Wings, which aren't often considered swarm material). Oh, but the Scyks' stat line is better than the TIE Fighters'. So...how can you suggest that the Empire's identity of cheap, agile vehicles isn't being worn down by that? Every faction in the game can field a squad of cheap, agile ships! If everyone has the same skill you can't call it special. Uniformity, well, that's a different story. TIEs do all look somewhat alike. But that's insufficient. You can paint all your Scyks to be uniform; if an aesthetic difference is all there is, I claim it's not enough.

Now, I also acknowledged that the Empire could branch into the "technological superiority" category, and the Phantom paves the way there, and that's a strong new identity. But if you give the Empire too many toys like that, it's not healthy for the game. Apparently it's not too healthy for the game to focus exclusively on large swarms, either. But they're a tenacious part of the game.

My only concern, aside from when it will be available and the steps to make sure that I get a copy of each ship, is the Starviper... I'm concerned about storing it in my box without damaging it. It's shape will give it a natural tendency to face down in my box and I don't want to scratch the paint on the cockpit.

That's about my only concern really... can i have it now?

I want a Syck. It looks cute.

I want a dozen, they will be very cute!

As the pew pew everyone out of the skies. Gods. That's gonna be so fun. an Epic list of 12 Sycks with HLC

DAT!!!

But the Imperial "identity" that we're clinging to-- if you're correct when you call it the cheap, disposable, identical, agile fighters...

He's not.

Now, I also acknowledged that the Empire could branch into the "technological superiority" category, and the Phantom paves the way there...

The Phantom follows where the Advanced, Interceptor, and Lambda went before it. Faceless technological superiority, along with "selfish" buffs and cheap, disposable fighters, have been fairly consistent themes for the Empire.

The evolution of the Empire's identity:

Wave One: Swarm. With howl or Vader

Wave two: swarm. Sometimes an interceptor or 2. Manueveabulity Superiority!

Wave three: swarm. Sometimes with a shuttle. Um, cool tricks.

Wave four: swarm... Nope. Phantoms everywhere. Technological advantage!

Now that both other factions swarm, just as well if not better, that isn't an identity in game so much as a theme form in universe. Maneuverability isn't an identity, it's agame feature, and one that is directly countered by all three factions now in turrets. We're starting to see "technologically advanced" as an identity but now S&V are getting all the tech. Unless we get empire only modification versions of some of those illicit upgrades the empire is getting out tech'd too.

I'd like to see these features:

Modification: production model- if you take no other upgrades this ship costs one less.

Title: command ship- squad leader ability.

And a new entire upgrade: imperial command. You buy it as part of a warband and get the bonus until X trigger flips it.

Rakky, your envy is blinding you to the facts.

With Wave 2, Firesprays were doing very, very well. Whether it was 3x BH or Duo Firesprays. I remember Hothie's usage of Firesprays were quite the talk about Regional time, despite the double Falcon panic. And you ignore the usage of Interceptors and the Three Amigo type builds pre Wave 4. Heck, look at what was used in the Gencon finals. Yes, a Phantom, but supported by Fel (an interceptor) and a shuttle.

Do not ignore the power of the Imperial big ships, whether it is the Firespray or the Decimator. Especially now that they have a tone of Imperial specific upgrades (something you have been whining about forever) that only they can use. Yes, the Scum Firespray can use illicit upgrades. But, can it is use Mara Jade, Rebel Captive, or Ysanne Isard?

I'm afraid the Q1 release will really be Q2.

Also, that S&V might not be able to change the meta from the 360 arcs and Phantom dominance.

The Empire's identity lies in cheap, disposable, unshielded, agile and UNIFORM fighters - aka the TIE series.

If you're right, then the Empire's identity in this game has either eroded completely or will develop no further.

The "unshielded, cheap, uniform, disposable" label applies to 3 out of 9 ships, which is hard to justify as a defining feature, and further, the uniform and disposable part really only applies to 2 of those 3 (the Interceptor wants to be free, man!)

Fact of the matter is, Imperial ships have shields now. Take out the large ships and you still only have 3 out of 6 fighters without shields (and all of them belong to the TIE series).

So, to come full circle, while some people worry about how the Scum will be different from Rebels, I think the greater concern is what will happen to the Empire, what with not having any real unifying identity or theme besides the names of the ships.

The Empire lost its unique stake in disposable ships once the Z-95 hit (and now the Scyk), and it doesn't do space superiority as well as the Rebels, so...there's one ship that exemplifies technological might, that's something that they could emphasize in later releases.

But the pickings appear to be slim.

They could bring back cheap and disposable, though. Bombers (which might get some support release anyways) can fit into Fighter swarms, points-wise, and releasing another cheap ship would go a long way towards revitalizing the old tried-and-true Imperial ways. The Empire could field the most varied swarms, which it already sort of does via mini-swarms, but a refreshing third full-swarm option could do just the trick.

But considering the anti-swarm lengths they've already gone to, I don't see it happening.

Considering that swarm as a tactic is only good against some lists, boxing imperials into using only swarm or highly mobile ships sounds like a bad game.

im getting more and more peeved by this games' possible direction.

Considering that swarm as a tactic is only good against some lists, boxing imperials into using only swarm or highly mobile ships sounds like a bad game.

im getting more and more peeved by this games' possible direction.

sigh

The Firespray doesn't fit into either category. And is still very useful for the Imperials. Even their ships will play differently than the Scum versions. Scum does not have Rebel Captive. And I'm willing to bet the abilities will be completely different than what they have. Scum will have a tough time having a Firespray that hits harder than Krassis and a HLC.

Scum will have a tough time having a Firespray that hits harder than Krassis and a HLC.

Wanna bet on that?

Considering that swarm as a tactic is only good against some lists, boxing imperials into using only swarm or highly mobile ships sounds like a bad game...

sigh

The Firespray doesn't fit into either category.

And neither does the Lambda, and neither does the Decimator.

im getting more and more peeved by this games' possible direction.

Just to parse this out completely: you're getting upset based on the direction you anticipate the game may be going...?

Rakky, your envy is blinding you to the facts.

With Wave 2, Firesprays were doing very, very well. Whether it was 3x BH or Duo Firesprays. I remember Hothie's usage of Firesprays were quite the talk about Regional time, despite the double Falcon panic. And you ignore the usage of Interceptors and the Three Amigo type builds pre Wave 4. Heck, look at what was used in the Gencon finals. Yes, a Phantom, but supported by Fel (an interceptor) and a shuttle.

Do not ignore the power of the Imperial big ships, whether it is the Firespray or the Decimator. Especially now that they have a tone of Imperial specific upgrades (something you have been whining about forever) that only they can use. Yes, the Scum Firespray can use illicit upgrades. But, can it is use Mara Jade, Rebel Captive, or Ysanne Isard?

I didn't mention them in my imperial identity part but did acknowledge that basic multi firespray is definately a good ship. I love Firesprays. Basic Firespray and EPT Ace firespray are great, Krassis saw minimal use, and pretty much none recently. Despite how awesome the ship is, not a lot of cannons that work, no missiles or bombs that are worthwhile, and only 2 pilots have EPT's and only 2 maybe 3 crew are ever considered... new crew with decimator will provide new options. Firesprays will get better with time and new releases, but they will need new pilots (and hopefullly updated named pilots).

3 amigos I'm not so sure about, 3 "interceptor" aces tricked out flys pretty much the same across the board...most even gave vader EU so he could just be an interceptor with 2 dice. I never saw them work out and don't recall them making much noise in the competative scene. PS 6-9 interceptor with Pretty much Garunteed PTL + 3-4 pt defensive mod gets pretty stale, especially when your list is just 3 of them doing pretty much the exact same thing.

There's no whining here... just looking at what's out there and there is less out there for the Empire. I'm not saying "nothing", but "nothing that fundementally changes a ships build, style, or role", unlike most of the rebel releases. So Envy? Maybe, but there's a lot to be envious of...again, the rebels have recieved a lot of new and powerful pilots and upgrades, from huge ships and aces and now most wanted, that the Empire doesn't get. I'm hopeful for an interceptor card that will make noise but I'm not sold on a single card taking somthing from middling to powerful. I'm hoping most wanted does something for the Imperial Firespray but not holding my breath for it (holding my breath for a full firespray expansion/"aces"). I hope I'm wrong, but right now I don't think I am.

You don't see it because you don't want to.

WHAT IS THERE TO SEE?

I can count.

I'm pretty active on the board.

I keep up with reports as best I can.

I DON'T SEE AS MANY IMPERIAL OPTIONS BECAUSE THERE AREN'T AS MANY.

Please show me how I'm wrong. Give me semi-competetive or better options that aren't just french vanilla vs. vanilla bean vs. plain vanilla and some reports that show they are good.

I want to see them, they just don't exist yet. I've been told "they're coming". But with the exception of 1 intercptor and maybe 1-2 firespray cards, that's not happening until after wave 6. "Coming" might be 4 months away, that might be next June.

I'm not saying "nothing", but "nothing that fundementally changes a ships build, style, or role", unlike most of the rebel releases.

You could complain that the imperial side has had few "fundamental change" releases, or you could look at it the other way: the rebel side needed more "fundamental change" releases to fix its problems. The a/b/y-wing changes aren't "give the rebels more stuff" releases, they're attempts to fix major design mistakes. The a-wing was completely broken (much worse than interceptors), the b-wing had good generics but the uniques might as well have been blank cards, and the y-wing is limited to an occasional generic with ion turret role. Now look at the imperial side and ask what "core" ships really need help: the basic TIE fighter is fine, the interceptor's problem is turret ships not the interceptor itself, the bomber is fine, and FFG are working on something for the advanced.

Plus, look at the faction concepts: rebels are about diverse and interesting single ships, imperials are about standard-issue fleets with overwhelming math efficiency. If you want all of your ships to be interesting "characters" with lots of options then fly rebels. If you want to play the faceless hordes then fly imperials.

Complain?

For every "core" ship there should be updates and changes. The clearest need happens to be on the imperial side AND the updates/changes are not occuring on that side at all. Needed? The bwing "needing" help is a stretch, it needed about as much help as the firespray.

My concerns?

That I'll have to buy any/all of it just to get the cards to keep my current collection competitive. That, and more cool ships that I will want but can't really afford/justify, given how much I actually get to play against other humans.

*sigh*

For every "core" ship there should be updates and changes.

Why? If a ship is doing what it should be and has no balance issues then why should there be change just for the sake of having more stuff to buy?

The clearest need happens to be on the imperial side AND the updates/changes are not occuring on that side at all.

And what need is that? Let's look at the imperial ships:

TIE fighter: no problems.

TIE interceptor: no problems with the ship itself, needs an ACD nerf to fix the turret-heavy metagame.

TIE bomber: no problems with the ship itself, but would benefit from an overall missile/torp fix.

TIE defender: maybe slightly overpriced, but in the same situation as its rebel equivalent.

TIE phantom: absurdly overpowered and needs a huge nerf, not more options.

TIE advanced: probably the worst ship in the game, but FFG is working on it.

Shuttle: no problems with the ship itself, just suffers a bit from the standard 100 point game not leaving much room for dedicated support ships.

Firespray: base ship is fine, could maybe use some better unique pilots but should they really be imperial and not scum?

So what exactly needs to be fixed with more options?

The bwing "needing" help is a stretch, it needed about as much help as the firespray.

It's not a stretch at all. The generic b-wings were popular, but only with a limited set of options. Meanwhile the unique pilots were both terrible and never used. That's a major design failure that needed to be fixed. And that's exactly the fix we got: unique pilots that don't suck, and a crew slot option to encourage creativity in b-wing setups instead of "my blue has more HP per point than a rookie".

And yeah, the Firespray has a similar unique pilot problem, but it also has another problem: it isn't really an imperial ship. It's a scum ship that was put into the imperial faction because FFG needed a Falcon equivalent and there wasn't a third faction yet. And since there are no imperial pilots in the fluff the only way to add more imperial Firespray pilots would be to take stuff away from the scum faction.

I don't see empire getting ships with shields making rebels less unique, I don't see rebels getting a cheaper fighter diluting the empire's strength.

Rebels still work as a team, imps still work as individuals and scum will buff themselves at the expense of others, even if ships are similar the way they play will remain unique.

The Empire are 2 ships down? Really? TIE Bombers are still pretty effective, and the TIE Advanced has just received a nice boost in the form of Proton Rockets. They're not meta-shaking, but their hardly not present.

How lucky, that may be true in your planet.... But in mine, from the eight ships available to the empire, only 4 see consistent usage, which are the ubiquitous TIE Fighter, the Firespray, the Lambda and the Phantom. The other 4 are hardly played, if played at all. Some Soontirs here and there, and that's all.

So I get precisely the opposite impression to you, those other 4 ships are hardly present in the current meta. Imperials are only using regularly half of their arsenal. The other half is directly considered not worthy, or at least, not worthy without weird combinations.

Funny, the ships I use often are the Defender, Bomber, Interceptor, and Firespray. Once S&V is out I'll probably never use it with Imperials again, but I will have a Decimator by then, so I'll have a proper Imperial force.

<shrug>

Scum won't have Krassis. I mean, even Boba Fett has new life in the current environment. The Decimator is nice, but I will still prefer the Firespray and it's HLC.

ill just add this, in the 6 tournaments i have played in since march none of them have had more Imperial players than Rebel players, it's usually a 60% Rebel to 40% Empire. I've seen more Rebel vs. Rebel lately than usual and it stems from the fact that people are tired of having their asses handed to them simply because they decide to play something that so depends of green dice that the minute you roll the dreaded 3 blanks there goes you 30+ pt ship.Basically it has degenerated into if you can't beat em, join em! Last weekend i was the only Empire player out of 6 but luckily a Rebel player played Empire for the 1st time in a tournament.

There is a problem even if you refuse to see it, and the Decimator wont fix it since the rebels are getting and even better ship.