I had good luck playing five Green Squadrons, all with Predator, in a game last night. The advantages were many, and I'm starting to rethink the conventional wisdom of PTL being almost an auto-include on As.

The biggest benefit is that Predator isn't an action, thus not susceptible to blocking/stress/k-turns; anything that can stop actions. This came into play very often last night, and freed me up to re-think how I maneuver with As. Knowing I'd still have re-rolls, I tried some things I may not have in the past (being worried about bumping/being blocked), since I'd still make the most out of my two puny attacks.

Predator functions almost like PTL anyway, since not having to target lock means using your action for maneuvering or focus. The nice thing is that you're not stressed after your actions, a la PTL, giving you more maneuver next turn. This takes better advantage of the A's greatest advantage -- its fantastic dial.

PTL can be great for turtling, i.e. focus/evading, or TL/focus, or, especially (of course), Interceptors, with their barrel rolling ability. I think maneuvering/attack is more important than defense, though, so the turtling aspect is minimal, IMO. Besides, getting out of arc with maneuver is preferable to being able to withstand attacks. Predator seems to leave you with more next-turn options by avoiding stress.

So on the whole, I'm starting to believe that, specifically for A-Wings, Predator may be the superior choice in most cases. It sure was for me last night. Only one game, of course, so I'll need to do it more often; and other pilots (Tycho or Jake, perhaps) may do better with PTL. But for my particular list, it was quite effective.

Love it when people try out of the box solutions. Great Post.

The great thing about A-wings nowadays is you don't have to choose.

I've tried PtL and Predator together on Jake. It did very well

The great thing about A-wings nowadays is you don't have to choose.

Well, you say that, but if you're taking two how about Predator and Outmanoeuvre?

Why choose? Take Greens.

The big draw of PtL over Predator on the A-wing is twofold: green manuevers and action economy. A-wings have twice the actions of an X-wing. The benefit of PtL on an A-wing is that if you know you're going to get stuck in the line of fire and can't arc dodge you can turtle up with defensive Focus and Evade actions. PtL lets you choose to buff for a full offensive or defensive round, depending on circumstances. Then the A-wing can clear the stress with one of its 8 (8! EIGHT!) green maneuvers.

That said, Predator is still pretty good for anyone, but two attack dice... =/

Skargoth: Is action economy better w/PTL? I'd argue that it's pretty much a wash. Using Predator is essentially an action -- only it's a free one. You still get another action. And it's one that you don't pay for with stress.

And you're right, that all the green on an A-Wing dial is great for dealing with stress, but it still does limit your choices next turn. What if you need a one-turn? A three bank or turn? A K-turn?

Or what if you're not stressed, and want to K-turn? Well, there goes your PTL. But you still have Predator.

Predator us almost like a stress free action every turn, but that action must be offensive. PTL adds the stress cost but also adds the flexibility to choose whatever actions are most appropriate from turn to turn.

5 predators means you need to purchase 5 defenders!

On a serious note if you're going to run 5 greens, I'd try putting ptl on some and predator or outmaneuver on the rest

The correct option is Predator AND PtL. Thought you should know.

Isn't Predator more useful the fewer attack dice you have? It lets you re-roll a greater proportion of your attack, for the same cost. Add more attack dice and predator stays just the same, while target locking becomes increasingly useful.

Isn't Predator more useful the fewer attack dice you have? It lets you re-roll a greater proportion of your attack, for the same cost. Add more attack dice and predator stays just the same, while target locking becomes increasingly useful.

Yes, but one could argue that it's more important to have the free reroll in higher attack ships because it's more important to be accurate on a lot of attacks then it is on few attacks.

The correct option is Predator AND PtL. Thought you should know.

True but impossible if you want to field 5 a-wings

The correct option is Predator AND PtL. Thought you should know.

True but impossible if you want to field 5 a-wings

Correct. I think that five A-Wings w/out PTL is better than four with both. The ships are too fragile, IMO, to have just four -- if it's your entire force, that is.

Isn't Predator more useful the fewer attack dice you have? It lets you re-roll a greater proportion of your attack, for the same cost. Add more attack dice and predator stays just the same, while target locking becomes increasingly useful.

That's my feeling, too.

Predator us almost like a stress free action every turn, but that action must be offensive. PTL adds the stress cost but also adds the flexibility to choose whatever actions are most appropriate from turn to turn.

True, but attacking is what you'll be doing most every turn. If I'm turtling a lot, then I'm probably not flying my A-Wings very well. It's more important, in general terms, to cause damage than to avoid damage in this game.

I'll be honest, I've never noticed enough times where I've been frustrated with my lack of options because of PtL on A-Wings. TIE Interceptors, maybe, but not A-Wings. The fact that I can Boost to whatever position happens to mark my fancy and use whatever other action I might need in a turn is critical to my success or failure with them. While I absolutely appreciate Predator on the A-Wing (or any other ship, for that matter) the sheer fact of the matter is that I happen to like more options. Also, your pilot skill is pitiful in this list: all I'd have to do is focus fire with a middle or high PS list that I happen to run and Predator will not save you. I'm gonna share the A-Wing list I've been working on since I got Aces.

Gemmer Sojan- A-Wing Test Pilot, Push the Limit, Chardaan Refit

Three Green Squadron Pilots- Veteran Instincts, A-Wing Test Pilot, Push the Limit, Chardaan Refit

A Tala Squadron Pilot

So you're downgrading from five A's to four and a Z-95, but you have more competitive PS all around (5,5,5,5,4) and have Gemmer who's ability is fantastic for messing with the enemy, especially when backed with focus. While the Tala won't be able to keep up with the rest of the flight group, that's okay: it will either act as a scapegoat, or be completely ignored until it is too late. This list is also 99 points, which is quickly becoming really important for initiative bids.

Isn't Predator more useful the fewer attack dice you have? It lets you re-roll a greater proportion of your attack, for the same cost. Add more attack dice and predator stays just the same, while target locking becomes increasingly useful.

Yes, but one could argue that it's more important to have the free reroll in higher attack ships because it's more important to be accurate on a lot of attacks then it is on few attacks.

Not sure I follow you - you're not being accurate on a lot of attacks (if you have higher attack), you're still being accurate on one die regardless. Have I misunderstood you?

5 predators means you need to purchase 5 defenders!

I don't see a problem.

If you're confident in keeping out of some ships arc, I think solo Outmaneuver is better.

Suppose you are fighting a TIE Fighter at range 2, Predator gives 2 rerolls. I did the following quick calculations:

Damage with Predator + focus vs. naked 3 dice

0.00 1.00 2.00
res 0.42 0.39 0.19

average damage 0.76

Damage with focus vs. 2 dice

0.00 1.00 2.00
res 0.37 0.41 0.22

Avg. damage 0.85

If you don't have focus though, it's reversed:

Damage w/o focus, with Predator vs. 3 green dice w/o focus
0.00 1.00 2.00
res 0.52 0.34 0.14

Avg. damage 0.61

Damage w/o focus vs. 2 unfocused green dice

0.00 1.00 2.00
res 0.59 0.31 0.10

Avg. damage 0.51

So it seems that if you're confident you can get out of their arcs w/o boost, you're all set to do more damage. My opinion is that this means that PtL + Outmaneuver is a better combo than PtL + Predator for pure offense.

What if they have focus? Well then the situation is much more clear, since removing a 5/8 dice is clearly better than removing a 3/8 dice.

Damage with Predator + focus vs. 3 dice + focus

0.00 1.00 2.00
res 0.75 0.21 0.04

Avg. damage 0.29

Damage with focus vs. 2 dice + focus

0.00 1.00 2.00
res 0.60 0.32 0.08

Avg. damage 0.47

Damage with Predator vs. 3 dice + focus

0.00 1.00 2.00
res 0.80 0.17 0.03

Avg. damage 0.23

Damage w/o focus vs. 2 dice + focus

0.00 1.00 2.00
res 0.78 0.19 0.04

Avg. damage 0.26

So to sum up, against a 3-dice defender (heh), if you already have focus, it's better to knock one dice off the defense. I would do PtL + Outmaneuver against TIEs, using Boost to get out of their arc + focus to get a nice shot.

Against opponents with a lower agility it is still better, but improvement get slightly smaller (assuming focused opponents with PS1-2):

against 2 agility:

Without focus, you get 0.53 damage with outmaneuver vs 0.47 with predator.

With focus, you get 0.91 damage with outmaneuver vs. 0.60 with predator.

against 1 agility:

Without focus, you get 1 average damage with outmaneuver vs 0.91 damage with predator.

With focus, you get 1.5 average damage with outmaneuver vs. 1.13 with predator

Of course, this still depends on your flying to get consistent outmaneuver triggers, which might be far from reality (although we're talking of 50% improvement in some cases, so if you do 2/3 outmaneuvers you would break even). It's also worth to mention that outmaneuver is really good against high-agility target such as the Phantom, without it the A-wings have very little chance of punching through.

I only did the calculations with Predator allowing 2 rerolls on a 2-dice ship, which is ideal. If this is not the case, the results can a little worse for Predator (the first reroll gives better added benefit than the second).

TLDR: Fly A-wings with Outmaneuver and PtL!

Chilligan, those are interesting numbers. I agree that Outmaneuver/PTL is an excellent combo, certainly better than straight Predator, for offense. But the question again arises: you're then talking about 4 ships vs. 5 ships. You're doing less damage per ship with 5/Predator, but you have more ships to dole out damage.

Five ships, of course, also gives you four more hit points, more ability to spread arcs/block/focus fire/etc. When faced with that choice, which do you choose? I'm not saying you're wrong, just that it's a difficult choice. Eight attack dice and 16 total HP for my force just doesn't feel like a lot.

What I also argue is that Outmaneuver is good if you already have a focus. So if you're confident in your skills get 5 A-wings with Outmaneuver. Spread them around, force him to split fire arcs so you can choose a target you Outmaneuver.

Or an even better idea, mix Predator with Outmaneuver. 2 AWings with Predator, 3 with Outmaneuver.

My Experience is the the same as KeithWard's.

I've been making different combinations with PTL, Opportunist, Predator and Outmaneuver, and I've lost the majority of the builds where I'm predictable and limited in maneuverability, and won the majority where I run stress-free.

Turtling up with evade+focus sounds like a good idea, but it's like peeing your pants; it's only warm at first:

You just make your green maneuver and get ready to turtle up again for another round of getting shot at, because there's no way in hell that anyone with just limited skill will be able to lose you. It's tedious and rarely saves you in the long run.

This game favors red dice.

I'm not yet sold on Outmaneuver as my second, or if I should save the points or simply just hull it up.

I've run 3 games where it got a lot of use, and 3 others where I still won, but where the pointcost was a bit steep for the usage.

I need a bit more testing, and probably refine the way I fly, to see if I can get Outmaneuver to become more consistently prominent.

PTL Wingman A-wings.