If you think vorpal is OP, wait until you have to go up against FatVorp!

Would that be Vorpal Sword upgraded with MJ as C-3PO?

Cheese exists, but at least X-wings flavour is a fine old cheddar to be taken with a good glass of red, not other game systems where it's stinky stilon.

Seriously? Of all the cheeses to have with a nice glass of red (I'm thinking Rioja) you'd have cheddar?! OK, I can understand not liking blue Stilton, but Wensleydale? Feta? White Stilton? Halloumi?

People... please. For starters, stinky cheeses tend to be washed-rind cheeses like Limburger. There are some stinky blues (like the Cashel Blue from Ireland, which reeks to, and tastes like, high heaven). But Stilton is not particularly stinky.

And what's more, if you want to say that this game is good and another game is bad, surely there's a much better set of cheeses to compare to. I do like good old sharp cheddars - preferably un-pasteurized farmhouse cheddars - but it's hardly the highest level of cheesedom. Also, Stilton is a venerable cheese, even if it's also not the highest level of cheesedom, and it certainly should not be used to disparage anything. If you want to talk about a cheese suitable for pejoratives, may I suggest a Velveeta or something that gets sprayed out of a can?

(I used to be a cheesemonger in a previous episode in my life.)

More to the point:

Yeah, the constant X=OP threads are getting to be tiresome. I think it's more worthwhile to invite people to comment about good build or tactical counters to elements that you're having problems with.

Lately, my problems is that I'm not getting enough flying hours in. So, right now, most of my regular opponents are OP, because I'm seriously UP (or, rather, DOWN). Good thing I'm going out to get my rear end kicked tonight, so I can learn some valuable lessons. Also, I'm giving my Rebel Aces their first time out.

The downside is, if you shoot at the Corran and his dice are hot, you might end up wasting shots that could've gone into destroying another ship. It really blows when you get Corran low, only to have him run away and regen shields.

R2D2 Corran certainly fits well into the new meta of less ships, as you generally need multiple shots on him to get passed R2D2.

As a new player, this kind of thinking kind of irks me. Corran doesn't have dice, the player does. If the dice are "hot" for Corran, they're going to be "hot" for any other ship you might choose to target. And what constitutes "hot" dice, anyway?

I've flown against a Corran once. A Defender with an HLC next to Captain Jonus at range 3 ruined his day, and Soontir cleaned him up next round. If you put enough dice down range onto your target, you can mitigate any "hot" or "cold" dice. As far as I can tell, dealing with a loaded up Corran isn't at all dissimilar to dealing with a loaded up Falcon. Offensive dice have a better chance to hit than defensive dice have to evade. Overwhelm a priority target with enough firepower, and it won't matter if your opponent gets lucky once or twice.

I am trying to break myself from the habit from playing past games where I find excuses for losses. Sometimes, it's really just as simple as your opponent had a better gameplan than you did, and executed it better than you executed yours. Congratulate your opponent on a game well played and try to learn from the experience. I've lost many more games than I've won with X-Wing so far. But I've never lost a game the same way twice. We'll all be better off if we encourage new players to learn from defeats, instead of learn how to pass blame for defeats.

I hereby officially retract any comment I made regarding any negativity towards fromage on the whole.

OK. X-wing has cheese you'd eat with wine, or crackers, and it tastes good and is appropriate.

It's still not a 5 year jar of cheeze whizz in the back of your fridge.

Corran isn't that scary. He is still beatable by a 12 point academy pilot, and for the points let's say the academy pilots other 3 mates.

What is it about this forum that threads that go off topic always end up talking about food?

I am becoming seriously worried by the trend on this board of interpreting "I'm struggling against Game Element X" as "Game Element X is overpowered."

OP, I'm sorry you've lost to Corran + R2-D2, but what makes you arrive at the conclusion that it means the combination is broken?

Ikr, it's like the say as rock, scissors is nicely balanced, but paper is OP. Did you ever consider, maybe your opponent just outflew you, or your ships weren't a good matchup? Player A always loses to Player X, does that mean the ship Player X flies is OP?

If you put enough dice down range onto your target, you can mitigate any "hot" or "cold" dice. As far as I can tell, dealing with a loaded up Corran isn't at all dissimilar to dealing with a loaded up Falcon. Offensive dice have a better chance to hit than defensive dice have to evade. Overwhelm a priority target with enough firepower, and it won't matter if your opponent gets lucky once or twice.

Yes, very much this.

A lot of people say that the dice determine the game. I'd say that the paradox is true that the more dice you roll, the less luck will matter. That's because the more you roll, the more the average result will approximate the probability expectations.

If you think vorpal is OP, wait until you have to go up against FatVorp!

I will create a Fat Jabberwock!

Your name gave me an idea. Fat Y-wings.

Granted it's just adding bombs to Y-wings but.... IAMREALLYEXCITEDTHATYWINGSGETBOMBS!

I'd also add that my friends think Y-wings are OP, as I like to Y-wing swarm with ion turrets.

Your name gave me an idea. Fat Y-wings.

Granted it's just adding bombs to Y-wings but.... IAMREALLYEXCITEDTHATYWINGSGETBOMBS!

I'd also add that my friends think Y-wings are OP, as I like to Y-wing swarm with ion turrets.

You're a good man swarming with Ys

Your name gave me an idea. Fat Y-wings.

Granted it's just adding bombs to Y-wings but.... IAMREALLYEXCITEDTHATYWINGSGETBOMBS!

I'd also add that my friends think Y-wings are OP, as I like to Y-wing swarm with ion turrets.

You're a good man swarming with Ys

Not as good of a man as someone who swarms Y's without Ion Turrets!

Not me. Just someone I know.

As a new player, this kind of thinking kind of irks me. Corran doesn't have dice, the player does. If the dice are "hot" for Corran, they're going to be "hot" for any other ship you might choose to target.

I think the difference is in how well a ship uses dice. For example, put Farlander in that situation instead of Corran and the above-average luck doesn't matter as much. You've only got one green die, so even if it's an evade every time you're still taking damage and exploding. But with the e-wing you have enough dice to negate all incoming damage if you roll well enough, which means that when you roll above average for a while you can end that lucky streak with no damage at all and a very frustrated opponent.

(The downside is that you're also vulnerable to bad luck. Farlander still has his 8 HP even when he rolls all blanks on defense, while Corran has a habit of exploding in one turn when the green dice roll blanks.)

It really blows when you get Corran low, only to have him run away and regen shields.

So don't make this mistake. You have to understand that once you pick a ship with R2-D2 as a target you have to pursue them at all costs and finish the job. You can't let them fly off to regain shields while you shoot at someone else. If you can't do this then don't shoot at Corran at all, put your shots into someone who doesn't have R2-D2.

So don't make this mistake. You have to understand that once you pick a ship with R2-D2 as a target you have to pursue them at all costs and finish the job. You can't let them fly off to regain shields while you shoot at someone else. If you can't do this then don't shoot at Corran at all, put your shots into someone who doesn't have R2-D2.

The problem with this is that if you focus exclusively on killing the regenerating guy, the rest of his squad has free reign to rip you to shreds. I have seen many games where that happens (and not just x-wing, other games with something that can regenerate), someone focuses on the regenerating unit, thinking to load it with so much damage that it is overwhelmed and killed as fast as possible, only by the time that unit is finally killed the person is so outnumbered by everything else in the other guys force that they have no chance at all.

As a new player, this kind of thinking kind of irks me. Corran doesn't have dice, the player does. If the dice are "hot" for Corran, they're going to be "hot" for any other ship you might choose to target.

I think the difference is in how well a ship uses dice. For example, put Farlander in that situation instead of Corran and the above-average luck doesn't matter as much. You've only got one green die, so even if it's an evade every time you're still taking damage and exploding. But with the e-wing you have enough dice to negate all incoming damage if you roll well enough, which means that when you roll above average for a while you can end that lucky streak with no damage at all and a very frustrated opponent.

(The downside is that you're also vulnerable to bad luck. Farlander still has his 8 HP even when he rolls all blanks on defense, while Corran has a habit of exploding in one turn when the green dice roll blanks.)

Yup, you're 100% correct here. I guess the point I was trying to make is that when dice run "hot" or "cold" it is over the course of a statistically insignificant sample size. Corran rolling three evade dice is a better deal than a Blue Squadron Pilot rolling one. But over the course of 100 dice rolls, Corran isn't intrinsically going to roll more or less evades than the Blue. The difference lies in the fact that it only takes Corran 34 tries to get to 100 dice while defending, whereas the Blue is going to have to go through 100 tries. Corran as a pilot in the inner workings of the game isn't "better" at rolling dice (meaning gets better results), he's just more efficient at it than most of his Rebel comrades.

And again, as you said, over the course of one of those small sample sizes of bad luck while defending, Corran is going to bite it harder than that Blue, because he has a whopping five points of health. In reality, takes as few as four damage from a primary weapon to kill Corran, where as a B-Wing is going to take at least seven damage.

As I said, my main gripe is the mentality of "the dice are to blame." Yeah, in this one very limited instance, sure, maybe stuff didn't work out. But you're just as likely to experience a setup where everything you roll is exactly what you want, and I've never seen somebody say "I was totally outplayed in my game today, thankfully the other guy couldn't roll well at all and I was on FIRE!!!" The double standard is what gets under my skin. When we lose because of the dice, it's because we lost because of the dice, but when we win because of the dice, it's because we are just that awesome.

The problem with this is that if you focus exclusively on killing the regenerating guy, the rest of his squad has free reign to rip you to shreds.

That's true of any hard to kill target, be it because it regens or just has a lot of HP or high defense.

Your name gave me an idea. Fat Y-wings.

Granted it's just adding bombs to Y-wings but.... IAMREALLYEXCITEDTHATYWINGSGETBOMBS!

I'd also add that my friends think Y-wings are OP, as I like to Y-wing swarm with ion turrets.

You're a good man swarming with Ys

Not as good of a man as someone who swarms Y's without Ion Turrets!

Not me. Just someone I know.

That's what you call mad skill.

It delights me to see this thread. Not because of another "combo X+Y is over-powered" thread, but because literally no one has thought E-Wings were worth a ****, much less worth complaining about.

Your name gave me an idea. Fat Y-wings.

Granted it's just adding bombs to Y-wings but.... IAMREALLYEXCITEDTHATYWINGSGETBOMBS!

I'd also add that my friends think Y-wings are OP, as I like to Y-wing swarm with ion turrets.

You're a good man swarming with Ys

Not as good of a man as someone who swarms Y's without Ion Turrets!

Not me. Just someone I know.

Nothing wrong with 5 Grays (Probably not the same list the guy you know runs but still fun)

Serious note, nobody mentioned APTs/Prockets yet? 1 Round of shooting and you can 1 shot a E-wing and be done with it, not terribly easy to set up of course, nor very probable, but I certainly have seen enough triple blanks on TIEs to not rule the possibility out (HLC+Opportunist Keyan, and Jan boosting a 4 Die attack ordnance or HLC, would work too)

It delights me to see this thread. Not because of another "combo X+Y is over-powered" thread, but because literally no one has thought E-Wings were worth a ****, much less worth complaining about.

I love my E-Wings! I fly a five ship list with Etahn A'Baht, two Blues, and two Bandits as my standard Rebel squadron. And Corran is pretty amazing in his own right. I'm trying to work out a squad of a couple Knaves and some other support, so I can get run both of mine at once.

The problem with this is that if you focus exclusively on killing the regenerating guy, the rest of his squad has free reign to rip you to shreds.

That's true of any hard to kill target, be it because it regens or just has a lot of HP or high defense.

True. But it can be worse with the regenerating one because you can't stop for a good attack of opportunity. Frex, if there was an imperial regenerator you have been focusing on, do you keep after it or break off and let it regenerate in order to kill the phantom the enemy unexpectedly couldn't recloak? If you were just going after a fat decimator you could change targets for a turn to take advantage of the other guy's error without real penalty, if he had a regenerator though, you could completely loose 3-4 turns of work by taking that other shot.

So don't make this mistake. You have to understand that once you pick a ship with R2-D2 as a target you have to pursue them at all costs and finish the job. You can't let them fly off to regain shields while you shoot at someone else. If you can't do this then don't shoot at Corran at all, put your shots into someone who doesn't have R2-D2.

The problem with this is that if you focus exclusively on killing the regenerating guy, the rest of his squad has free reign to rip you to shreds. I have seen many games where that happens (and not just x-wing, other games with something that can regenerate), someone focuses on the regenerating unit, thinking to load it with so much damage that it is overwhelmed and killed as fast as possible, only by the time that unit is finally killed the person is so outnumbered by everything else in the other guys force that they have no chance at all.

For corran is good not op but good, but it is stronger the lesa it cost.

This because if you contain the cost,can play ships other z95. And if opponent focused him to kill you can kill the other.

I thinking the similari list:

http://geordanr.github.io/xwing/?f=Rebel%20Alliance&d=v3!s!75:27,-1,-1,3:-1:-1:;46:37,38:-1:-1:;44:-1,-1,-1,-1:-1:-1:;64:-1:-1:-1:

So don't make this mistake. You have to understand that once you pick a ship with R2-D2 as a target you have to pursue them at all costs and finish the job. You can't let them fly off to regain shields while you shoot at someone else. If you can't do this then don't shoot at Corran at all, put your shots into someone who doesn't have R2-D2.

The problem with this is that if you focus exclusively on killing the regenerating guy, the rest of his squad has free reign to rip you to shreds. I have seen many games where that happens (and not just x-wing, other games with something that can regenerate), someone focuses on the regenerating unit, thinking to load it with so much damage that it is overwhelmed and killed as fast as possible, only by the time that unit is finally killed the person is so outnumbered by everything else in the other guys force that they have no chance at all.

Some lists can't deal with it later on, so i can see the merits on focusing him down first.

Anyways, the only Corran which is really very very hard to kill is a ptl + r2d2, because of the evade + focus allowing to ignore and reduce incoming damage from 2 ships. The good thing, is that it is also very predictable, stick to its back, bump it, and kill him the same way you would kill a Luke R2D2.

The downside is, if you shoot at the Corran and his dice are hot, you might end up wasting shots that could've gone into destroying another ship. It really blows when you get Corran low, only to have him run away and regen shields.

R2D2 Corran certainly fits well into the new meta of less ships, as you generally need multiple shots on him to get passed R2D2.

As a new player, this kind of thinking kind of irks me. Corran doesn't have dice, the player does. If the dice are "hot" for Corran, they're going to be "hot" for any other ship you might choose to target. And what constitutes "hot" dice, anyway?

I've flown against a Corran once. A Defender with an HLC next to Captain Jonus at range 3 ruined his day, and Soontir cleaned him up next round. If you put enough dice down range onto your target, you can mitigate any "hot" or "cold" dice. As far as I can tell, dealing with a loaded up Corran isn't at all dissimilar to dealing with a loaded up Falcon. Offensive dice have a better chance to hit than defensive dice have to evade. Overwhelm a priority target with enough firepower, and it won't matter if your opponent gets lucky once or twice.

I am trying to break myself from the habit from playing past games where I find excuses for losses. Sometimes, it's really just as simple as your opponent had a better gameplan than you did, and executed it better than you executed yours. Congratulate your opponent on a game well played and try to learn from the experience. I've lost many more games than I've won with X-Wing so far. But I've never lost a game the same way twice. We'll all be better off if we encourage new players to learn from defeats, instead of learn how to pass blame for defeats.

I apologize, it wasn't a dice complaint. I am not one of those players.

And welcome to the game! X Wing is a certainly one of the more rewarding games to play, and I am glad to still see new people!

Back to the point, I was more saying, "yah man, it really blows to be on the other end when that 1 hp Corran survives for several turns, regening as he pleases". Just the same as saying, "it really blows when a Phantom literally rolls 3-4 evades each time". Or even "when an Academy Pilot rolls 3 evades 3 times in a row, with focus, of course". It just hurts your feelings when all that damage you did to Corran is regened. I was just validating that it sucks to be in that position!

As much as we want to discuss topics and opinions and math, we forumers must still be nice to each other. Without personal interaction, it is easy to forget that these discussions can just be plain mean, even if not intended that way. Just because you disagree with a player's experience doesn't mean you have the right to belittle them, even inadvertently. Etc etc etc. I mean this all nicely and not directed at anyone.

Also, I was implying that focusing R2D2 Corran right away can back fire, as it might turn into a wasted effort, where as shooting another ship is more of a "sure thing". I just didnt want players to think that the only tactic to beat R2D2 Corran was to kill him right away, as many were implying. Killing his support might still be useful, as Corran is as good of a dog fighter as many other ships

I will also add that R2D2 seems to give the EWing what it was "missing" to be competitive, more than anything. Id certainly say the Corran + R2D2 is evenly strong, not overly strong. It just creates more un-fun situations, like free 2 evades on Fat Falcon, and super free arc dodging Phantom. Though, I do think defeating these "situations" becomes much more rewarding because of the degree of difficulty they can cause.

The downside is, if you shoot at the Corran and his dice are hot, you might end up wasting shots that could've gone into destroying another ship. It really blows when you get Corran low, only to have him run away and regen shields.

R2D2 Corran certainly fits well into the new meta of less ships, as you generally need multiple shots on him to get passed R2D2.

As a new player, this kind of thinking kind of irks me. Corran doesn't have dice, the player does. If the dice are "hot" for Corran, they're going to be "hot" for any other ship you might choose to target. And what constitutes "hot" dice, anyway?

I've flown against a Corran once. A Defender with an HLC next to Captain Jonus at range 3 ruined his day, and Soontir cleaned him up next round. If you put enough dice down range onto your target, you can mitigate any "hot" or "cold" dice. As far as I can tell, dealing with a loaded up Corran isn't at all dissimilar to dealing with a loaded up Falcon. Offensive dice have a better chance to hit than defensive dice have to evade. Overwhelm a priority target with enough firepower, and it won't matter if your opponent gets lucky once or twice.

I am trying to break myself from the habit from playing past games where I find excuses for losses. Sometimes, it's really just as simple as your opponent had a better gameplan than you did, and executed it better than you executed yours. Congratulate your opponent on a game well played and try to learn from the experience. I've lost many more games than I've won with X-Wing so far. But I've never lost a game the same way twice. We'll all be better off if we encourage new players to learn from defeats, instead of learn how to pass blame for defeats.

I apologize, it wasn't a dice complaint. I am not one of those players.

And welcome to the game! X Wing is a certainly one of the more rewarding games to play, and I am glad to still see new people!

Back to the point, I was more saying, "yah man, it really blows to be on the other end when that 1 hp Corran survives for several turns, regening as he pleases". Just the same as saying, "it really blows when a Phantom literally rolls 3-4 evades each time". Or even "when an Academy Pilot rolls 3 evades 3 times in a row, with focus, of course". It just hurts your feelings when all that damage you did to Corran is regened. I was just validating that it sucks to be in that position!

As much as we want to discuss topics and opinions and math, we forumers must still be nice to each other. Without personal interaction, it is easy to forget that these discussions can just be plain mean, even if not intended that way. Just because you disagree with a player's experience doesn't mean you have the right to belittle them, even inadvertently. Etc etc etc. I mean this all nicely and not directed at anyone.

Also, I was implying that focusing R2D2 Corran right away can back fire, as it might turn into a wasted effort, where as shooting another ship is more of a "sure thing". I just didnt want players to think that the only tactic to beat R2D2 Corran was to kill him right away, as many were implying. Killing his support might still be useful, as Corran is as good of a dog fighter as many other ships

I'm sorry if it seemed like I was singling you out with my comments. I certainly see how it could be construed that way, but it was not at all my intent. Trust me, I'm as prone as anyone to the "my dice betrayed me!" attitude as anybody else. It's a habit I'm trying hard to break.

My primary playing partner has the tendency to get frustrated at how quickly I can run through his typical setup. I like building my squads with a bit of synergy in mind, stuff that works well together. He, on the other hand, will field ships with as much as a quarter of his list being taken up by upgrades. Lately I've been beating him every time we sit down to play. There's never any discussion about his two Bombers carrying nearly 30 points of ordnance, or how I nailed a maneuver to land perfectly outside of his arc while keeping him at range 1 for my shot. It's always "My dice were terrible." Or "You were rolling really well." It's frustrating to sit across from a player who is being outplayed, either in list building or on the table, and having your accomplishments reduced to "You just got lucky." No, I spent a lot of time developing this strategy, and a lot more practicing it.

Again, it certainly wasn't my intention to single you out in this. And you're right, I've been on that side of it. Having an Omicron Group Pilot die the first round it is shot at before you get a chance to fire back is frustrating and demoralizing. I once had a guy on Vassal unload two round of Proton Rockets into Corran and kill him in the third round without so much as a whimper. It makes you want to throw things, because it's a helpless feeling in the gaming world.

So, my apologies if it seemed like I was directing my anger at this situation in general towards you in particular. You just hit upon a topic that is currently rubbing me the wrong way, and I felt like it needed to get out there. Let's all try to teach the new guys and girls that the dice are only one function of the game, and there are things to help mitigate how important they are overall. I can't count the number of times I've spent a Target Lock to re-roll three blanks on an HLC and wound up with four hits. Let's keep people learning and growing as players, rather than looking for a scapegoat for their losses.

And thanks for the welcome! This is my first miniatures game, and I've spent way more time on this hobby than any I've had in years. I'm hoping to eventually immerse myself into the competitive side!