This question mostly concerns Kairi, but it also affects Beast.

For cards like Merlin and Ariel, the card text says something along the lines of: "You may discard this card from your friend area when certain conditions are met." It specifically gives you the power to discard the card, and it also says when.

Both Kairi and Beast have card texts that start of with "If you discard this card from your Friend Area...." No where in the card text does it say that you MAY discard the card. It doesn't specifically let you play it.

So is it implied that I may discard either of those cards, or do I have to have a special card like Alice or Simba or some other card that allows you to discard friends in your friend area?

This is important because this means that Alice would actually be useful if used with Kairi. If you managed to play Kairi 3 times in a row against a Dark Deck, and used Alice to discard Kairi 3 turns in a row, then your opponent will actually lose 6 dark cards instead of 3, 3 of which you get to choose. Which is helpful when going against a Dark Deck that uses cards like Wizard and Sea Neon to block out your options. Meanwhile you'd only lose 4, 3 Kairis + 1 Alice. And you weren't going to use those cards for anything besides discarding anyways.

But if Alice isn't necessary for this then never mind, because I can't imagine a good use for Alice unless you're using cards like Wendy, Jasmine or Kairi as discard fodder.

Also, if I discard either Kairi or Beast due to having used them in a battle or challenge, does that trigger their effect? I would think so, but I'd like to get other people's opinions.

Thanks.

im sorry to say that the way you want it to work is incorrect. although it says "if you discard this car etc" it means you have to activly discard it. you personally have to discard it. with alice/simba/ w/e you are not discarding it the alice/simba/w/e is discarding it. now you may be thinking "well i still get to choose" yes you do with thier effect but alice/simba is making you choose and its not you taking the inititve to discard the card. i hope this makes sense. basically alice/simba/battle/challenge is making you discard a card whihc means you are not activating beasts/kairis effect so you dont get their effect.

Unless it has been officialy ruled on otherwise, I agree with capncrunch .
Take, for example, the Sally card. Her effect reads:

If this card is discarded from your Friend Area by a card effect, you may choose one "Jack Skellington" card from your Discard Area and put it into your hand.

Compare this to Beast's effect:

FURIOUS BELLOW: If you discard this card from your Friend Area, choose and discard one Dark/Heartless Card in play of level 2 or below.

Sally's effect specifies that it must be discarded " by a card effect" while Beast's does not. Beast also specifies that "you" must discard the card. Kairi's effect is worded the same way as Beast's, meaning that you must discard the card willingly, not from a card effect.

Also, Alice is a very helpful card in Aggro decks. Paired with a Yuffie, you can very greatly control an opponent's friend area.

I hope to have helped.

~Demon Of Turks

capncrunch said:

I'm sorry but this is impossible. For two seperate reasons.

The first reason is... Look at Alice. It says, "Each player must choose and discard blah blah blah" meaning that it is the player who actively discards it and not the card text. I mean the card text literally says so. Combine that with any effect that says "If you discard this card... blah blah blah" without actually allowing you to discard it at will, and well... that's that. It's obvious that Alice gives you the ability to discard any one card in your friend zone during your discard phase, even though it forces you to use it and you don't get a choice, it's still you doing the discarding. Now if it said "Choose a card for Alice to discard" and not "You choose and discard" you'd have a point. But it doesn't say that.

Now with Simba you might actually have a point. With Simba level 4 for example, it says "...All other friend cards must be discarded." This doesn't really say who's discarding the cards, and it doesn't specify that Simba is discarding it and it doesn't specify that the player is discarding it. But Alice and Simba are two different cards. However, I still don't see any place where it says you aren't discarding them. It just doesn't say that you are . But with the ambiguity in this case, I can see why one would think Kairi's or Beast's effect wouldn't work here.

The second reason is this: If I can't use Alice to discard Kairi, then I can never discard Kairi. It's pretty obvious that I can discard Beast when playing a higher level Beast, but what about the effect on the level 3 Beast's card? There's no higher level Beast card so I just can't ever use it. I can only discard cards in the discard phase if they're in my hand OR if they have been used in a battle or a challenge.

Now both Kairi and Beast have the card text "If you discard this card from your Friend Area ..." meaning that they cannot be discarded from your hand if you want their effect to take place. Also, if you discard them due to a battle or challenge.. well, the rule book doesn't specifically say that the PLAYER discards them. It just says that they are discarded. Same thing as Simba. So I doubt the card effect works there either.

So in other words, if what you say is true, both Kairi and Beast have useless card texts, meaning that Kairi is actually a completely and totally useless card and Beast is only good for his high support value. I don't think FFG would make that kind of oversight. A Tidus + Kairi combo or an Alice + Beast or Kairi combo makes sense. A card with a discard effect that I can never ever discard does not.

I don't think that's the case. And there's nothing in the rule book or written on any cards to back up your claim about the "card's effect discarding the cards and not the players." Sorry, but there's no place in the rule book or on any cards where it just comes out and says that. So unless there's an official ruling from FFG I can't possibly accept your answer as being correct. Even WITH the ruling, I would ask them to reconsider because it really does invalidate a couple of otherwise important cards.

Also: you make the case that one card text (Like Sally) is specific and one card text (Like Kairi or Beast) is not. Ambiguity in this case would imply to me that it works in a more broad sense. It does NOT imply that it only works in the one special case that no other card works in. Sally's text implies to me that her card text can be activated even by cards like Monstro and Simba lvl 4. Meanwhile Kairi and Beast are a special case.

Now the Alice + Yuffie combo IS helpful. I never thought of that. Since Yuffie's card text says "When this card is discarded from your Friend Area" and not "If you discard this card from your friend area" I can see how it would be a different case from Kairi and Beast. But this also tells me that this works for Simba + Yuffie as well.

Sorry, but when you really think about it, you can't possibly be completely right.

I'm sorry, but capncrunch and demonofturks are correct.

We've had many a player bring this ambiguous wording to light before and it's sparked many a debate. FFG has indeed made a bunch of poorly worded cards and ones worded like Kairi, Beast, etc. are among the most confusing.

Does it make sense? Not completely...but there are two categories:

Effects that go off if they are discarded by an outside source: Sally, Piglet, Aerith

Effects that go off when you choose to discard them but NOT by an outside source: Tidus, Beast, Kairi

And before you argue any further, I will end by saying these are official FFG rulings made by Robb Kouba the lead designer for the US version of this game...once we are able, we will add them to the Comprehensive Rules and Rulings Thread.

~Mr. Dawn

I'm actually half expectin the new rulins on card effects to be in the new rulebook in the next set...

It might actually be able to help sort out the confusion that people keep askin. Though, I can't see the rulebook containin every question we've ask'd ('n believe you me, I've ask'd a lot meself, specifically bout dark cards). That's why we have the comprehensive rulins section.

Well... not to be offensive... they may have been correct but they failed to actually answer the whole question. The half-answer I got didn't really make a lot of sense.

The question was "How does this work? Does it work like X? If not, then how?"

And all I got was "Nope, it doesn't work like X." with no one even touching upon the more meaningful part of the question: "If not, then how?". I guess I didn't actually say that, even though I was kinda thinking that it was implied.

But "Way of the Dawn" did actually answer it.

You're basically telling me that I CAN discard these at will, even though the card itself doesn't specifically say that I can. It was meant to be implied, according to FFG which is the source of these cards to begin with. Also, I cannot get these same effects through discarding due to Simba or Darkside or whatever, which is an interesting thing to know but wasn't really the heart of the question.

But this makes a lot more sense than "No you can't discard this card ever, and yet it has a discard effect" which is kinda what they seemed to be saying. Knowing this, Kairi actually becomes a lot easier to use, which makes sense since she is basically a card that only counters Dark Decks.

I'm not really trying to be hot-headed about this or start any large discussion, I just wanted a clarifying answer. So thanks.