I played in a tournament over the week end and equipped my Vader with Proton Rockets. I was excited because with his two actions and 3 agility he should do some good damage.

It was the first time I had ever tried any range 1 missiles/torps. I didn't like them on the TIE Advanced.

As it turns out Darth Vader can do some okay damage at range 1. 3 attack dice + TL + Focus, you have a pretty good chance at doing 3 damage (before your opponent rolls agility) that should do some damage to just about anything.

At Range 3, though, Vader really struggles. Sure he will get his TL + Focus, but he can't get more than 2 hits. Most ships are going to get 3 or 4 agility to dodge with. There is a pretty good chance that Vader won't get anything throug.

If Vader Fires a Concusion Missile (he will probably have a focus) at range 3 he is likely going to get 4 full hits, and your opponent won't get any extra agility dice. So Vader is very likely to do some damage.

My critisism of the Proton Rocket dosen't mean that it is bad, it just doesn't improve Vaders damage output nearly as much a Concusion Missile does.

I haven't flown the proton rocket on an A-wing, but A-wing's like Vader are pretty good at doing damage at range 1, just not at range 3. So I don't see things being that different from the TIE Advanced.

I played in a tournament over the week end and equipped my Vader with Proton Rockets. I was excited because with his two actions and 3 agility he should do some good damage.

It was the first time I had ever tried any range 1 missiles/torps. I didn't like them on the TIE Advanced.

As it turns out Darth Vader can do some okay damage at range 1. 3 attack dice + TL + Focus, you have a pretty good chance at doing 3 damage (before your opponent rolls agility) that should do some damage to just about anything.

At Range 3, though, Vader really struggles. Sure he will get his TL + Focus, but he can't get more than 2 hits. Most ships are going to get 3 or 4 agility to dodge with. There is a pretty good chance that Vader won't get anything throug.

If Vader Fires a Concusion Missile (he will probably have a focus) at range 3 he is likely going to get 4 full hits, and your opponent won't get any extra agility dice. So Vader is very likely to do some damage.

My critisism of the Proton Rocket dosen't mean that it is bad, it just doesn't improve Vaders damage output nearly as much a Concusion Missile does.

I haven't flown the proton rocket on an A-wing, but A-wing's like Vader are pretty good at doing damage at range 1, just not at range 3. So I don't see things being that different from the TIE Advanced.

1) Concussion missiles cost more 2) You have to spend a target lock to use them 3) you are very likely to do five damage at range one with TL+Focus and 4) A-wings have MUCH better maneuver, and are a LOT cheaper than an Advanced.

You realize that you don't have to "spend" your focus to make the attack, right? So, you can declare it with the focus on your ship, and then use the focus on the attack role. That is my current understanding of how this will work. Someone correct me if I'm incorrect?

If I understand your argument, you're saying that you prefer Concussion missiles because you have access to focus, but you have access to focus on both. So, the big question is whether the blank turnover on four dice is better than no blank turnover on five (or more) dice...

1) Concussion missiles cost more 2) You have to spend a target lock to use them 3) you are very likely to do five damage at range one with TL+Focus and 4) A-wings have MUCH better maneuver, and are a LOT cheaper than an Advanced.

Plus what tiefanatic said.

I am with you on this one. I think I'd sooner spend the three points on Predator or Outmaneuver with Vader, keep him in close and go to work at close quarters.

If I was to splash on a missile, I'd take predator and concussion as it will get you pretty much 4 hits.

It's a general issue with ordinance that it's very very rarely worth investing those points into missiles instead of a hull upgrade or SD.

To be worth it ordinance would need multiple uses or some other change, perhaps a new form of attack dice.

I think the point being made by Hrathen is that Vader doesn't need range one help, he needs it at range 2-3. For 3 points at R1 I prefer Predator or Outmaneuver as it helps every turn.

My current favorite setup is

Vader, Engine Upgrade, Predator or Outmaneuver.

I have used Proton Rockets once, on Jake. Was in a slightly offset "Jousting Position" against an Etahn Abaht, and finished the previous turn just out of Range 3. Etahn, who moved before, took an aggressive 3 straight, and barrel rolled to block me. I did a 2 straight, and landed Range 1 of Etahn, basically nose to nose. Focus for free Barrel Roll, then Push to Boost. Finished Range 1 of his flank, outside of his arc. Fired my Proton Rocket, three hits and 2 eyes, focus for five. Etahn rolled 3 dice (in case you're interested, he had Stealth Device and I had Outmaneuver, so +1/-1 back to standard value), and popped 2 blanks and an eyeball.

Undamaged E-wing, vaporized by the first attack of the game. Jake and Proton Rockets did their job well.

Ordnance hardly ever gets used in our house, even with munitions failsafe.

I think something being overlooked here is that proton rockets give you 5 dice in a single attack. Sure taking an EPT instead might give you a bonus over a longer period of time but in some cases having a great single punch is worth it. For instance, I played a game against a defender and two interceptors with 4 a wings each with push the limit and proton rockets. I took out one of the inerceptors in a single shot when I rolled three hits and two crits naturally. Didn't even have to spend the target lock and focus. It's the potential of a relatively cheap alpha strike that makes them worth it. I wanna try the same list against a fat Han build and see if I can take that thing out early. Maybe trade one of the prockets for an ion pulse missile or something to ion the falcon and get in it's face and unload two or three (if one of the a wings lives through the first two rounds of shooting) TL and focused proton rockets on him, plus the regular attack from the ion missile a wing. It's sure to take the falcon down to almost nothing early on.

But for every game in the past where a rocket has been handy i've had two where it never gets to be fired

I just think that as a 'one shot' thing its a gamble and i personally prefer to put points into 'sustainable' bonus abilities/weapons

3 dice with focus is 2.25 hits on average. (range 1 attack with 2 base attack dice).

5 dice with focus is 3.75 hits on average. (range 1 proton rockets on a 3 agility ship).

So you are paying 3 points to get, on average, 1.5 hits. The actual damage increase will be slightly less than 1.5, because you don't get anything for "overkilling" a 3 HP target, and occasionally your extra damage done will get absorbed by the defender's otherwise extra evade rolls / tokens.

So you are paying 3 points to get less than 1.5 additional damage on a target, on a single one-off attack. But it only works at range 1. Hull upgrade costs 3 points for +1 damage (on defense), so Proton Rockets should be slightly more efficient than Hull Upgrade, but with very restrictive usage. Hull upgrade is already rarely a good value, so by extension you probably won't see proton rockets very often either, even on 2 attack 3 agility ships that can carry missiles.

3 dice with focus is 2.25 hits on average. (range 1 attack with 2 base attack dice).

5 dice with focus is 3.75 hits on average. (range 1 proton rockets on a 3 agility ship).

So you are paying 3 points to get, on average, 1.5 hits. The actual damage increase will be slightly less than 1.5, because you don't get anything for "overkilling" a 3 HP target, and occasionally your extra damage done will get absorbed by the defender's otherwise extra evade rolls / tokens.

So you are paying 3 points to get less than 1.5 additional damage on a target, on a single one-off attack. But it only works at range 1. Hull upgrade costs 3 points for +1 damage (on defense), so Proton Rockets should be slightly more efficient than Hull Upgrade, but with very restrictive usage. Hull upgrade is already rarely a good value, so by extension you probably won't see proton rockets very often either, even on 2 attack 3 agility ships that can carry missiles.

That 1.5 extra hits on a single attack can be enough in a lot of cases to put a serious dent in an enemy ship early on or even knock them out entirely. I don't think this is a case where calculating how many hits it gives you versus something else can be the only deciding factor in making the choice to play the card or not. If I was a player that had a defender and saw it get down to one or two hull from a single hit that is going to dramatically affect the way I play that ship throughout the rest of the match. Plus, if that alpha strike allows you to entirely knock out a ship in the beginning of the game that removes additional attacks your opponent can make as well as giving your opponent less field control options. It's something I'd definitely always consider putting on an A-wing.

3 dice with focus is 2.25 hits on average. (range 1 attack with 2 base attack dice).

5 dice with focus is 3.75 hits on average. (range 1 proton rockets on a 3 agility ship).

So you are paying 3 points to get, on average, 1.5 hits. The actual damage increase will be slightly less than 1.5, because you don't get anything for "overkilling" a 3 HP target, and occasionally your extra damage done will get absorbed by the defender's otherwise extra evade rolls / tokens.

So you are paying 3 points to get less than 1.5 additional damage on a target, on a single one-off attack. But it only works at range 1. Hull upgrade costs 3 points for +1 damage (on defense), so Proton Rockets should be slightly more efficient than Hull Upgrade, but with very restrictive usage. Hull upgrade is already rarely a good value, so by extension you probably won't see proton rockets very often either, even on 2 attack 3 agility ships that can carry missiles.

So, therefore, Ordnance is still weak. Even Ordnance that is better than previous ordnance.

I say it's better than most existing ordnance (exception maybe Assault Missiles) for these reasons:

You need a focus instead of a Target Lock. Built in Dead-eye. That means I can contextually choose my target in the combat phase if the circumstance arises. If I need a Target Lock, I cannot change my mind if a better shooting solution presents itself. I then get to keep that focus, meaning even on a low generic, I can modify my attack without support or additional upgrades. On ships without 3 agility, like TIE Bombers or Z95s, it is still the cheapest way to get a four dice attack, albeit a one-off.

Biggest downsides are that they are STILL not cost-efficient (barring extreme examples) as you pointed out, and the Range 1 limitation can cause a problem.

As I said upthread, I have only used Proton Rockets once, and they nuked an undamage E-wing into space dust. It may have been my most successful use of one-off ordnance in my entire X-wing career. But, two tables away from me, another player whiffed with a Proton Rocket against a Falcon. Five diced yielded zero net damage against a FALCON (after C-3PO and an evade token which the Falcon player had reserved to defend against the Rocket). My Rocket paid itself off no question. Theirs simply did not come close.

Such is the reality of ordnance. Any attack can whiff, but most attacks don't cost extra points for a single attempt. Now, Keyan Farlander with HLC and Opportunist? THAT does wonders...

I found Vader with a Concussion Missile and a Bomber with the same firing in the same round are fantastic about 85% of the time. I would either destroy a ship or cripple it with that combo. I would make these my alpha strikes and would never find that I never fired the ordenance for the match.

The proton rocket, by itself, is not enough; you also need the pilot to deliver it. The new A-Wings are superb in that regard and as long as they still have their ordinance, they can be a serious threat to anything on the board. Their extra maneuverability that they gain through A-Wing test pilot + other upgrade is quite extraordinary.

BTW Vader is honestly not a good enough ship to be the end-all be-all. A-wings with Proton Rockets are glorious. Or at least they were when they reduced my full HP defender to one hull.

BTW Vader is honestly not a good enough ship to be the end-all be-all. A-wings with Proton Rockets are glorious. Or at least they were when they reduced my full HP defender to one hull.

Assuming both the attack and your Defender had focus, that's only a 1.25% chance (negating critical hits).

(3/4)^5*(3/8)^3

BTW Vader is honestly not a good enough ship to be the end-all be-all. A-wings with Proton Rockets are glorious. Or at least they were when they reduced my full HP defender to one hull.

Assuming both the attack and your Defender had focus, that's only a 1.25% chance (negating critical hits).

(3/4)^5*(3/8)^3

You cant math out confirmation bias, sir. It's also amusing that PS 9 2/3/3/2 with two actions without ANY upgrades is some how worse than PS * 2/3/2/2 vanilla.

BTW Vader is honestly not a good enough ship to be the end-all be-all. A-wings with Proton Rockets are glorious. Or at least they were when they reduced my full HP defender to one hull.

Assuming both the attack and your Defender had focus, that's only a 1.25% chance (negating critical hits).

(3/4)^5*(3/8)^3

You cant math out confirmation bias, sir.

Confirmation bias = 100% chance of occurring!

Kind of like always blaming the refs on a "bad call", where the commentary on a call is completely dependent on the geographic location of the commentator.

BTW Vader is honestly not a good enough ship to be the end-all be-all. A-wings with Proton Rockets are glorious. Or at least they were when they reduced my full HP defender to one hull.

Assuming both the attack and your Defender had focus, that's only a 1.25% chance (negating critical hits).

(3/4)^5*(3/8)^3

You cant math out confirmation bias, sir. It's also amusing that PS 9 2/3/3/2 with two actions without ANY upgrades is some how worse than PS * 2/3/2/2 vanilla.

Not saying a generic a wing is way better than Vader, but Vader is ~10 points more expensive from memory and you can only have one of him.

One thing to consider about Proton Rockets is that they're actually a bit better for low-PS ships than high PS like Vader.

One of the risks in using standard long-range locking ordnance is that if you move first, you can easily be out of range to lock a target, then too close to fire next turn once you do. This is part of why you REALLY don't want initiative with Bomber squadrons. Since Proton Rockets come with a build-in Deadeye, they can help offset this a bit, plus you reduce the chance of someone jumping inside your range.

Which is all to say that Vader, despite being the only Advanced people think is worth anything, doesn't take advantage of a lot of the goodness Proton Rockets offer.

BTW Vader is honestly not a good enough ship to be the end-all be-all. A-wings with Proton Rockets are glorious. Or at least they were when they reduced my full HP defender to one hull.

Assuming both the attack and your Defender had focus, that's only a 1.25% chance (negating critical hits).

(3/4)^5*(3/8)^3

You cant math out confirmation bias, sir. It's also amusing that PS 9 2/3/3/2 with two actions without ANY upgrades is some how worse than PS * 2/3/2/2 vanilla.

Not saying a generic a wing is way better than Vader, but Vader is ~10 points more expensive from memory and you can only have one of him.

Generic TIE Adv is 4 points more expensive than a generic A-wing with +1 PS and +1 Hull. At worst they are dead even in their capability to carry proton rockets from a cost effectiveness perspective.

Vader is better than all the other elite A-wing pilots (yes even those fancy new ones) because you have to drop about 31 points and nearly all the upgrade slots just to give them a comparable stat line (Jake/Tycho).

Yes but what you are really saying is that Proton Rockets are better than other ordnance on low PS ships not that A-wings or low PS ships have any real advantage over Vader (or even TIE Advs in general) in terms of being able fire the rockets.

You can easily argue that Vader will be more likely to be where he needs to shoot said rockets at the juiciest target AND probably have both focus and target lock to back up the one hit wonder that is the rocket rather than just floating around space waiting for something to maybe float into your low PS RB1.

It's a general issue with ordinance that it's very very rarely worth investing those points into missiles instead of a hull upgrade or SD.

You lost me at hull upgrade. You're basically saying that having one extra hull is more valuable than your capability to potentially do several points of damage. If a base philosophy of the game is to do more damage than you take, this philosophy seems to be counter-productive. That is, unless you are spectacular at maneuvering and avoiding enemy fire. I can see the argument that some players are "endgame" players, who prefer to rely on survivability through maneuvering and slowly working away at their opponent. For those that are not endgame players, or are playing "alpha strike" squads, having that ordinance available could be a game changer.

The generic advanceds can't take an EPT which prevents them from pushing the limit to get a TL and focus in the same turn.

You see while its not 'efficient' techically... i've found that 'SU' works better for me than 'HU'.

Sure its one point more but i'd rather have that little bit more security when that early hit goes in than have soontir for example reduced to PS0, have no action bar or be unable to turn without generating stress (rough paraphrases of some of the more damaging critical hits).