yep, today's topic of discussion. Here's a few considerations:

>> At 30 points basic, inclusion of the Rebel Transport in a 100pt list is pretty reasonable. After sinking some points in, you are looking at around the 40-50 point range, which is roughly that of a falcon. Although it is often seen as a combat support ship, it can damage opponents through Slicer Tools or simply by ramming enemy ships.

>> The Rebel Transport is able to make complete circles in the confines of a 3x3 with some room to spare for other maneuvers without going off the board. You can fly sort of a peanut / 4-leaf clover / figure of 8 shape within the confines of the 3x3 actually. This, i feel should be a key consideration. In comparison, the slightly longer and faster Tantive IV, while still being able to loop around the 3x3 without going off board, doesn't have as much maneuvering options, and thus would not be as viable as the Rebel Transport.

>> Speaking of maneuvering, the Rebel Transport does mean that maneuvering becomes more important, even if your opponent has turrets or decloaking options. The mere presence of the Rebel Transport would significantly influence opponent maneuvers, whereby he doesnt want to end up in front of the transport, for instance, or whereby the very size of the transport itself physically blocks up areas and denies available flightpaths. This would be a good reversal to current complains that the game is shifting away from the maneuvering aspect

>> The Rebel Transport offers the user a way to remove asteroids, and hence change the board state. Also, the ship itself is often viewed as one large obstacle. This way of playing is in line with FFG's efforts to try and make obstacles play a larger role in the game, as seen with Dash Rendar and the new stress-asteroids thingy

>> The Rebel Transport's high cost and available actions directly supports the push for more elite pilot based builds. Consider the coordinate action. Currently, there are ways for a single elite pilot ship to gain multiple actions, through FCS, PTL, R7T1 and the like. However, while it is easy to get 2 actions, it is quite difficult to get 3 or more actions without the use of specific builds like Jake PTL, or Tycho PTL Interface. The Coordinate action helps this playstyle directly, by giving that ship 1 additional action a turn, which most of you would deem important in an elite pilot style of play. Targets like Corran Horn, which many complain about being too expensive, would become more effective and playable.

>> The Rebel Transport's Jam action also supports FFG's push to make stress and action denial have a larger impact in the game. By jamming enemy ships, your enemy is either forced to suck it up, or find ways to deal with the stress, such as incorporating wingman, or flying Yorr, etc. Also, this action does directly address current complaints in the metagame, such as ACD Phantoms and C3P0 boost MF title Falcons. By inflicting these targets with double stress, the Phantom would be unable to recloak and hence be less effective, and the falcon likewise would be forced to fly more predictable green maneuvers, making it easier to pin down and fire upon. At the same time, the Rebel Transport accounts for 40-50 points worth, so its strong combat supporting actions are balanced out by the fact that it doesnt exactly have an attack.

>> Although it can be argued that 1v1 the Rebel Transport would 100% win against say, a TIE fighter, due to the Recover action, we currently already have such unwinniable game conditions anyway, such as C3P0 MF Falcon or R2D2 Luke or rookie Xwing vs PTL TIEinterceptors, so this should be a moot point.

>> Ordnance would likely see a comeback, since it is a very quick and effective way to take out the Rebel Transport quickly. At the same time, the Coordinate actions as well as some of the epic upgrade cards helps the Rebel player to setup and fire off his own ordnance shots.

>> The ability to dish out crits would likewise have a larger importance in the game when it comes to taking out the Rebel Transport, as the crits inflicted on the Rebel Transport tend to have much more devastating effects. While it wouldn't really mean that Maaaaaarek would become new meta overnight, it does mean that we would be seeing the (minor) return of underpowered cards like Winged Gundark, Marksmanship, Proton Torps and the like.

>> PR relations would be slightly improved. Players (especially more competitive ones) would be more delighted to know that they are spending $$$ on something that they can actually use, as opposed to spending $$$ just for cardboard. Already there are some comments (not exactly complains) that you are buying the Tantive only for that stupid C3P0, and likewise the Rebel Transport for the Xwing only. If the Rebel Transport is allowed for 100pt standard play, which by all means it should, owners would not feel that the Rebel Transport is that much of a money grab, and that really helps in player retention. Compare this feeling with that when you purchase, say Wizkids promos / Super-Rares or Games Workshop 40k products. For owners of Rebel Transports, it would feel good when you can use it after you have paid for it, unlike the Tantive that is currently permanently on display on the shelf in my bedroom and would, in all honestly, never see any table flight time unless my playmates specifically request for me to bring it out and fly it around.

Counter-argument: there is no imperial equivalent. I don't think we should even consider having this conversation until both sides have a similar ship available.

Counter-argument: there is no imperial equivalent. I don't think we should even consider having this conversation until both sides have a similar ship available.

then all the more it should see play! Already now, Imperials and Rebels are losing their uniqueness with regards to one another. Rebels now have Z95s that are pretty much the same as TIEs, Imperials are getting the Decimator which is the same as the falcon, for some much more notable examples of the current evolution of the game.

Also, this is a very minor point of contest, since epic gameplay has already been promoted by FFG, and yet not only do Imperials not have an epic ship, they are further restricted by the ship count limit.

Counter-argument: there is no imperial equivalent. I don't think we should even consider having this conversation until both sides have a similar ship available.

That's a rather restrictive rule. It's not like our discussion is going change the rules anyway, so there's no harm in having this conversation. Besides, the Imperials have had stuff that the rebels didn't. Should Imperial Aces have been banned until Rebel Aces came into our hands? Should Phantoms be excluded until Rebels have cloaking technology too?

So, anyway, I'm perfectly fine having the conversation.

And, if it were up to me, I'd say 'yes', the Transport should be allowed into the standard game, if a rebel player wants to field it. While I do like my Space Whale, I don't think it's even close to being OP, so I doubt that many rebel players would choose to include it.

If someone wants to roll like that, I don't see why not. It is a lot of HP for 100 points to chew through, but I think it's doable.

Besides, the Imperials have had stuff that the rebels didn't. Should Imperial Aces have been banned until Rebel Aces came into our hands? Should Phantoms be excluded until Rebels have cloaking technology too?

That's not really a fair comparison. Imperial aces was outside the normal wave schedule, but it was still more of the same kind of "standard" ships. Same with cloaking, it's a unique action but you could say the same thing for rebels and their droids. The transport, on the other hand, is something completely different. It's an entirely new class of ship with its own special rules that has nothing even remotely equivalent on the other side.

then all the more it should see play! Already now, Imperials and Rebels are losing their uniqueness with regards to one another. Rebels now have Z95s that are pretty much the same as TIEs, Imperials are getting the Decimator which is the same as the falcon, for some much more notable examples of the current evolution of the game.

But you're confusing design issues vs. product availability issues. I'm fine with each faction having their own things, but access to huge ships isn't one of them. They aren't something that's rebel-only by design, we can be pretty sure that we're going to get imperial huge ships eventually (unless FFG decides to abandon the epic experiment) but we just don't have them yet because of the release schedule. And I don't think we should be creating faction diversity through gaps in the release schedule.

Besides, the Imperials have had stuff that the rebels didn't. Should Imperial Aces have been banned until Rebel Aces came into our hands? Should Phantoms be excluded until Rebels have cloaking technology too?

That's not really a fair comparison. Imperial aces was outside the normal wave schedule, but it was still more of the same kind of "standard" ships. Same with cloaking, it's a unique action but you could say the same thing for rebels and their droids. The transport, on the other hand, is something completely different. It's an entirely new class of ship with its own special rules that has nothing even remotely equivalent on the other side.

Well, sure, but so what? I think it's only a question if allowing the Transport to be included unbalances the game. I don't think it does. Do you think the Transport is OP in a 100 point game?

Well, sure, but so what? I think it's only a question if allowing the Transport to be included unbalances the game. I don't think it does. Do you think the Transport is OP in a 100 point game?

I haven't played it to find out, but my initial impression is that it probably isn't overpowered in terms of winning percentages. The issue is the perception of unfairness, that rebel players get their fancy toys while imperial players have to wait indefinitely until FFG decides to give them something. This is already something that has limited the popularity of epic, I don't want to see it spread to normal games and have them suffer the same effect.

I think the main imbalance would come from the face that the transport is able to regenerate shields like ewoks are able to produce crap.

I think the main imbalance would come from the face that the transport is able to regenerate shields like ewoks are able to produce crap.

Only at the cost of doing nothing else that turn, and likely taking more damage than it regens because it can't reinforce at the same time. All of the useful things a transport can do require an action and/or energy, so spending your action and energy on repairing shields means turning your transport into a useless paperweight for a turn. You might be able to stall and reach the time limit (if any) with that kind of strategy, but you aren't going to be winning any other way.

Well, sure, but so what? I think it's only a question if allowing the Transport to be included unbalances the game. I don't think it does. Do you think the Transport is OP in a 100 point game?

I haven't played it to find out, but my initial impression is that it probably isn't overpowered in terms of winning percentages. The issue is the perception of unfairness, that rebel players get their fancy toys while imperial players have to wait indefinitely until FFG decides to give them something. This is already something that has limited the popularity of epic, I don't want to see it spread to normal games and have them suffer the same effect.

I'm totally on the same page with you in terms of wanting an Imperial huge. I play almost exclusively Imperial, and I love the huge ships.

But since the Transport isn't OP, I'm happy to blow it up if my opponent wants to fly it.

In my opinion ? No. Scum should give us enough variety of match ups to not need to add a ship barely playtested outside of the Epic format.

In my opinion ? No. Scum should give us enough variety of match ups to not need to add a ship barely playtested outside of the Epic format.

Probably because it was not meant for outside Epic.

Now I sort of understand the OP reasoning to say those ships to be allowed, especially when there is a standard ship that cost more and has WAY MORE hull than the Transport (VT-49 Decimator 40 points, 4 shields & 12 HULL). Not to mention you can fit a single CR-90 in a "standard" 100 point limit. Not to mention those that play Epic games tend to argue that the Huge ships are not that powerful and tend to fall to swarms of "standard" small and large ships.

However the argument with "standard" is the word standard. To me it emphasizes the focus of the game which is Starfighter combat aka the space dogfight (though it is sort of strange that the B-wing which was designed to go after capital ships and not dogfights tends to be one of the best dog-fighters in the miniature game.) If you want capital ships FFG is making Armada for that. Though I still wouldn't mind if the made a Star Destroyer for X-wing (I would be that guy to buy it even if it cost over $200). Still I think most people will agree that for tournament and competitive play it is best to keep the game at where it was focused on since the beginning. Maybe when the Imperial and S&V get their own huge ships we will see a better Epic tournament scene but still even after that keep epic ships out of standard and keep standard play, well "standard".

No. It has nothing to do about balance, because it is a pretty bad use of your points in 100.

I think a lot of your reasons are misguided.

There are a few valid points from Duraham, I'd say the transport should get an ok on 100 pts games. I don't fear it, played several times against it, it's an easy target.

I haven't played it to find out, but my initial impression is that it probably isn't overpowered in terms of winning percentages. The issue is the perception of unfairness, that rebel players get their fancy toys while imperial players have to wait indefinitely until FFG decides to give them something. This is already something that has limited the popularity of epic, I don't want to see it spread to normal games and have them suffer the same effect.

So what's the problem? Right now, your entire argument just seems like an entitlement argument to me. "An Imperial player is entitled to equal access." Do you not think that Rebel players are not bothered that Imperials get the "fancy toy" of Cloak on Phantoms that is dominating the meta? You have an (weak) excuse for why an exception should be made for that , but you're not even attempting to make a similar argument for the Transport. You haven't tested it, so its not worth discussing? Do you have any idea how "what I say goes" that sounds?

You're clearly very skilled at this game, but your arguments are not arguments of logic, they're arguments of personal preference. It really bothers me that your first argument was for "no argument". I'm of the opinion that experienced players such as yourself have the responsibility to engage discussions, not shut them down.

Do you not think that Rebel players are not bothered that Imperials get the "fancy toy" of Cloak on Phantoms that is dominating the meta?

In my opinion ? No. Scum should give us enough variety of match ups to not need to add a ship barely playtested outside of the Epic format.

How do we know they didn't test it in standard?

That being said, I'm inclined to agree that it shouldn't. As you go up in points AoE abilities get better and single target abilities get worse. Jam, for example, can completely shut down an enemy ship. When there are 300 points of enemy ships crippling a phantom or interceptor for a few rounds with one action isn't nearly as much of an issue, but in 100 point I can see that being unbalancing.

Because either they tested it and found it unfit, or they didn't waste time doing it as they wanted it for epic.

Do you not think that Rebel players are not bothered that Imperials get the "fancy toy" of Cloak on Phantoms that is dominating the meta?

In my opinion ? No. Scum should give us enough variety of match ups to not need to add a ship barely playtested outside of the Epic format.

How do we know they didn't test it in standard?

That being said, I'm inclined to agree that it shouldn't. As you go up in points AoE abilities get better and single target abilities get worse. Jam, for example, can completely shut down an enemy ship. When there are 300 points of enemy ships crippling a phantom or interceptor for a few rounds with one action isn't nearly as much of an issue, but in 100 point I can see that being unbalancing.

but that is in turn counter-balanced by the Rebel Transport player having up to a maximum of 70 points (assuming he was using an empty transport. Maybe 55-60 points would be a more reasonable estimate) worth of actual fighting force that can actually do any damage to the opponent. While I agree that the jam action could easily cripple 1 enemy ship, that ship is definitely (ok, fairly reasonably high chance) worth less than the point cost of the transport, and that ship can still attack and contribute to the battle with pilot abilities, just denied of its actions and some maneuvers.

As bad as the Transport would be in standard 100pt format, I say keep it out. Keep some differences in the two formats other than point total.

I say, "Let It Be Played!"

Adds Diversity to the game and definitely adds a Unique Squad!

that ship is definitely (ok, fairly reasonably high chance) worth less than the point cost of the transport

Rebel Transport, base cost 30 points. Comes with its full suite of actions.

Naked Wedge or Keyan, 29 points.

Fel PTL with no further upgrades, 30 points.

Delta Defender, base cost 30 points up to HLC Predator Hull Upgrade Rexler Brath at a full 50 points.

Echo, 30 points off the bat, 35 with the obligatory ACD and even higher with further upgrades.

Whisper, 32 points off the bat, 42 fully decked out.

Millenium Falcon, usually about 50 points worth, can push 60.

VT-49 Decimator, also looking at Falcon cost.

Firespray-31, base cost 33 points.

Dash, mid forties when upgraded.

Focus Factory Kyle, 31 points.

The Transport's a powerful support piece that can pull its weight in squad points. I'm not sure it scales into 100 that well. Then again, apparently one of the Scumhawks has a jamming ability.

In my opinion ? No. Scum should give us enough variety of match ups to not need to add a ship barely playtested outside of the Epic format.

How do we know they didn't test it in standard?

That being said, I'm inclined to agree that it shouldn't. As you go up in points AoE abilities get better and single target abilities get worse. Jam, for example, can completely shut down an enemy ship. When there are 300 points of enemy ships crippling a phantom or interceptor for a few rounds with one action isn't nearly as much of an issue, but in 100 point I can see that being unbalancing.

In standard play there are already multiple ways to induce double stress or Ion+Stress from a single ship. Starting at 23pts for the Rebel Operative +ICT and Tactician.

If a transport action would be OP at 100pts it would be the recover and/or reinforce actions. Getting up to 4 shields back per turn could be hard to deal with for some squads.

In standard play there are already multiple ways to induce double stress or Ion+Stress from a single ship.

As an undodgeable action that can be repeated over and over?

Counter-argument: there is no imperial equivalent. I don't think we should even consider having this conversation until both sides have a similar ship available.

We should maybe get rid of bombs too since there isn't a rebel equivalent ship that can carry them....