I have two issues with this talent tree when I first glanced over it just now.

Basically, it's a non-lightsaber talent tree, but it provides two lightsaber only talents. Now, with reflect it isn't perhaps such a bad thing, it's a 10 XP talent that could be useless to you, but it's only 10XP and while this does make the route to dedication more expensive, it's not a big loss. The culprit is Saber Throw. This is a 20XP talent. Now, you don't need to take it certainly, but to me it seems rather meh for anyone but a lightsaber junkie if one of the higher-up talents is suddenly useless to you. It is arguably shoehorning players into taking up the lightsaber.

There isn't one solution to this, I mean, you could leave as is and sort of shaft those aggressors wanting to use melee weapons intead - they have to pay 25XP more to reach Dedication, which isn't much of a deal perhaps, but I find it silly basically.

Another solution would be to replace said talents, I suggest Parry in place of Reflect, it doesn't require a lightsaber. Of course then there's the question what to do about Saber Throw. Replacing it with what?

A third solution involves changing both Reflect and Saber Throw to be allowed with melee weapons too. Just now I can only think of one instance where Reflect could be said to be used by a non-force sensitive, and that's Crimson Empire (1 or 2) wherein Kir Kanos is seen reflecting blaster bolts with his double bladed vibroblade. Of course we don't really know whether he's force sensitive or not, it is never mentioned in the series - and of course one could argue that the depictions of him using his vibrostaff thingy for reflecting blasters is just artistic license and cool narration.

As for saber throw, I cannot think of any instances in Legends where that is used with a melee weapon, but I could of course be wrong.

Still, I think that would be the best solution really, they're both force talents, which means the force is involved and that in itself could serve as a basis (I guess) for saying why a melee weapon culd withstand a blaster bolt or similar ranged attacks. Although, I'm not certain I'd let melee weapons use Improved Reflect, which now suddenly becomes a possibility as things are currently worded in the beta book and the update.

So, there, initial reaction to having the beta.

Ancient swords can make use of reflect and throw, and the reflect IMO is very welcome with shii cho knight in the same career. For the aggressor in our group she actually uses an ancient sword most of the time, to avoid imperial attention, and only breaks out the saber in an emergency.

I think it's just a case of a tree not being the most optimal tree that it could be. I'm not a fan of the throw talent in any tree. But some people really like it.

I guess the ancient sword counts as a "Lightsaber weapon," but that again sort of supports an extension of these two talents to apply to melee weapons too, I think. Throw can still be linked to the Lightsaber skill - if one wants to make it harder with melee weapons - but I don't think that's necessary.

I think these things are just designed to be separate, melee talents and saber talents. and there's always going to e talents that are a little railroad ish or are dead talents (I'm thinking the enforcer tree or infiltrator tree and the talents within those).

I don't think it breaks the game to use throw on melee weapons, but I think I would make a player choose upon obtaining the talent. so no double dipping. but for reflect... I would keep that solely in the domain of the weapons with the saber skill attached.

Now, back in the SAGA days (and I've thought about importing it over to FFG) I had a home brew mod/attachment that you could add to a traditional melee weapon and treat it as a saber for the talents that used sabers as a key word.

Doing the same thing in FFG would be a simple attachment, probably in the neighborhood of two HP, and it would change the skill used on the melee weapon from melee to saber. I would call it force attunement. If that concept (in some form) floats your boat, then use that as another option.

But I think the aggressor tree really needs that reflect talent.

EDIT: Maybe that solution above (the attachment/mod) is too crunchy for some. in that case either let these talents work with melee weapons, or what have you. Maybe I like a touch of crunch in my games, or maybe I like having a player invest in an attachment so that they feel like they had some agency in creating the weapon, and not just GM fiat (an illusion of sorts, but we all live with our illusions). Just throwing out something I've done in the past and has worked well in my group that could work in FFG.

I don't think it breaks the game to use throw on melee weapons, but I think I would make a player choose upon obtaining the talent. so no double dipping. but for reflect... I would keep that solely in the domain of the weapons with the saber skill attached.

Agreed. The talent should be renamed to "Weapon Throw" or something, tough.

Now, back in the SAGA days (and I've thought about importing it over to FFG) I had a home brew mod/attachment that you could add to a traditional melee weapon and treat it as a saber for the talents that used sabers as a key word.

Doing the same thing in FFG would be a simple attachment, probably in the neighborhood of two HP, and it would change the skill used on the melee weapon from melee to saber. I would call it force attunement. If that concept (in some form) floats your boat, then use that as another option.

I really liked this idea. Maybe it could be one of the Discipline-related mods discussed on the other thread.

But I think the aggressor tree really needs that reflect talent.

Now, I have to disagree!

The Agressor archetype is clearly the kind of guy who rushed into melee, so a Parry would fit in much better. Who really needs a Reflect on his tree, IMO, is the Shii-Cho Knight.

@tedMaul: Fair enough! I think what I should have said is the warrior career needs at least 1 reflect talent, and it seems just as out of place in shii cho as in aggressor. (for different reasons of course).

Ancient swords can make use of reflect and throw, and the reflect IMO is very welcome with shii cho knight in the same career.

I have to disagree, ancient swords may use the lightsaber skill but they're in the melee weapon table in the book, not the lightsaber weapons table. And even if you do use them to reflect and throw, somehow, you're still using the lightsaber skill, so there's no benefit gained for the aggressor over a real lightsaber.

As for reflect in aggressor helping the shii cho knight, the knight should really have a mix of reflect and parry, so if that changes, swapping the aggressor to a single parry would be very good.

I think these things are just designed to be separate, melee talents and saber talents. and there's always going to e talents that are a little railroad ish or are dead talents (I'm thinking the enforcer tree or infiltrator tree and the talents within those).

I don't think it breaks the game to use throw on melee weapons, but I think I would make a player choose upon obtaining the talent. so no double dipping. but for reflect... I would keep that solely in the domain of the weapons with the saber skill attached.

But I think the aggressor tree really needs that reflect talent.

So, with the Throw talent you could then pick it up two times (from different trees) to apply to both types of weapon? I can see that as a viable solution, although I'd think that one could just let it apply to both.

Whether or not the aggressor needs the reflect or not..? I'm not sure, but I'm pretty sure that if the aggressor keeps the talent, it'd be nice if it could be used without buying ranks in a non-career skill and having to use a lightsaber (weapon). Although, my main beef with it being a lightsaber-only talent in this case (and this goes for both I guess) is that it forces the players hand, or well, it will have a strong influence on the player's choice on weapon, with a heavy bias towards lightsabers - which can be cool, but not all my players like the flashy glow stick. I get that it's central to the whole book and game, and I know I could just house-rule it changing the tree or the talents, but I'd rather not, I'd prefer if the game opened for these things without the need for house-ruling. If going for the aggressor it's - to me at least - kind of obvious that the plan was not to go lightsaber crazy, but any other weapon route really, be it brawl, melee or even ranged (light)... but perhaps that's just me.

@ jegergryte: Well, For my aggressor, he didn't complain much. He bought 2 ranks in saber prior to becoming a shii cho knight, and then went in to the spec with no complaints (being a beta campaign, I even offered to refund the xp sunk, since he could have done that from the get go, the player refused).

And you don't need to be skilled with a saber to reflect. a shoto becomes handy here. And I predict in future splats the warrior tree representing concepts similar to the Korunnai tribes that used vibro shields and the deflecting abilities of the jedi. Same with the Kilian Rangers and their shield guantlets.

Just because a career doesn't have sabers as a skill doesn't mean that there aren't be future plans to include non-saber deflection. (ouch, triple negative makes my brain hurt).

Ancient swords can make use of reflect and throw, and the reflect IMO is very welcome with shii cho knight in the same career.

I have to disagree, ancient swords may use the lightsaber skill but they're in the melee weapon table in the book, not the lightsaber weapons table. And even if you do use them to reflect and throw, somehow, you're still using the lightsaber skill, so there's no benefit gained for the aggressor over a real lightsaber.

Well...

Force and Destiny Pg 124

Although there are many different types of lightsabers, for rules purposes, any weapon that uses the Lightsaber skill is considered a lightsaber, even if the weapon has a different name.

So by RAW, you can use the Ancient Sword with any talent that requires a lightsaber, because the skill to use it is the Lightsaber skill.

Ancient swords can make use of reflect and throw, and the reflect IMO is very welcome with shii cho knight in the same career.

I have to disagree, ancient swords may use the lightsaber skill but they're in the melee weapon table in the book, not the lightsaber weapons table. And even if you do use them to reflect and throw, somehow, you're still using the lightsaber skill, so there's no benefit gained for the aggressor over a real lightsaber.

Well...

Force and Destiny Pg 124

Although there are many different types of lightsabers, for rules purposes, any weapon that uses the Lightsaber skill is considered a lightsaber, even if the weapon has a different name.

So by RAW, you can use the Ancient Sword with any talent that requires a lightsaber, because the skill to use it is the Lightsaber skill.

huh... Well I can't think of one talent that makes sense in my head to be used with an ancient sword like a lightsaber, so I don't like that very much.

And what's the point of naming the weapon groups if its the skill that decides the weapon type and not the name of the group of weapons, or at least put the ancient sword on the lightsaber chart if its supposed to count as a lightsaber rather than as some buried rule ?

Ancient swords can make use of reflect and throw, and the reflect IMO is very welcome with shii cho knight in the same career.

I have to disagree, ancient swords may use the lightsaber skill but they're in the melee weapon table in the book, not the lightsaber weapons table. And even if you do use them to reflect and throw, somehow, you're still using the lightsaber skill, so there's no benefit gained for the aggressor over a real lightsaber.

Well...

Force and Destiny Pg 124

Although there are many different types of lightsabers, for rules purposes, any weapon that uses the Lightsaber skill is considered a lightsaber, even if the weapon has a different name.

So by RAW, you can use the Ancient Sword with any talent that requires a lightsaber, because the skill to use it is the Lightsaber skill.

huh... Well I can't think of one talent that makes sense in my head to be used with an ancient sword like a lightsaber, so I don't like that very much.

And what's the point of naming the weapon groups if its the skill that decides the weapon type and not the name of the group of weapons, or at least put the ancient sword on the lightsaber chart if its supposed to count as a lightsaber rather than as some buried rule ?

Because it's not a lightsaber in any other meaningful sense and does not use any of their attachments. Its purpose seems to be to allow the PCs access to a weapon that makes use of their lightsaber talents, is concealable (shadow sheath) until a proper lightsaber can be constructed. The fluff states they have a unique balance that makes them handle similar to a lightsaber and not a standard melee weapon. Think Dawn of the Jedi.

The light saber combat forms originated with the ancient combat techniques of the je'daii, who used specially balanced swords. the idea of the ancient swords is not only to allow light saber wielders a more discrete weapon option, but also to reflect that lore.

And the only saber talent off the top of my head that would not allow use with an ancient sword is improved reflect. for fairly obvious reasons.

The ancient sword is probably also listed as an option to allow a PC to use talents like Parry and Reflect without it being obvious they're using a lightsaber.

For what it's worth, a training lightsaber is also available for the same cost (400 credits), has better damage for most PCs (Damage 6 vs. Damage 2+Brawn) and a lower Encumbrance (1 vs. ancient sword's 3), as well as being readily upgradeable once the PCs have access to a suitable lightsaber crystal. The ancient sword also isn't limited to just strain damage the way the training lightsaber is and can inflict a critical injury. It also has the inherent benefit of not being a lightsaber, so if you need to throw down in public, you'll generate less attention using a big metal sword than you would using an energy blade.

I'd say just replace Reflect and Saber Throw with Stunning Blow and Improved Stunning Blow. It plays into the Aggressor's brawler style of combat, extends the theme of them as crowd controllers, and has some precedence for being linked to Crippling Blow from the Gadgeteer tree in EotE

All I know is I want to make an Enforcer/Aggressor and take 5 ranks of Fearsome.

only 5? why not 6?

And I want to make an Ewok Enforcer/aggressor. (which is what I thought you had said in the first place).

His name will be nub nub. And his name will carry death!

Just replace Ranged (Light) with Lightsaber on the list of additional career skills. There really aren't any ranged talents in the tree. Problem solved.

Just replace Ranged (Light) with Lightsaber on the list of additional career skills. There really aren't any ranged talents in the tree. Problem solved.

Thing is, I feel like Aggressor might be one of those specs that's supposed to say "no really guys. you can still do cool stuff without a lightsaber." and I actually kind of like that its a combat-focused melee spec in this book that doesn't emphasize lightsabers.

Just replace Ranged (Light) with Lightsaber on the list of additional career skills. There really aren't any ranged talents in the tree. Problem solved.

Thing is, I feel like Aggressor might be one of those specs that's supposed to say "no really guys. you can still do cool stuff without a lightsaber." and I actually kind of like that its a combat-focused melee spec in this book that doesn't emphasize lightsabers.

I look at it as more of a melee/saber hybrid spec -- less refined than one of the Form disciples, but more Forced-up than a Marauder: a fearsome warrior with a beat-stick, glowing or not. Ideally, I'd like to see it work either way.

Page 124 of the Edge of the Empire Beta rule book:

Although there are many different types of lightsabers, for rules purposes, any weapon that uses the Lightsaber skill is considered a lightsaber, even if the weapon has a different name.

An aggressor can definitely use that Ancient Sword as a lightsaber for Reflect and Saber Throw.

Page 124 of the Edge of the Empire Beta rule book:

Although there are many different types of lightsabers, for rules purposes, any weapon that uses the Lightsaber skill is considered a lightsaber, even if the weapon has a different name.

An aggressor can definitely use that Ancient Sword as a lightsaber for Reflect and Saber Throw.

Man, you can use crystal polish for anything .

Looks like they pulled those Lightsaber talents from the Tree.

http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffg_content/StarWarsRPG/force-and-destiny/support/Beta%20Errata%203.pdf

Yup... The prey talent is interesting, but I have an aggressor/shii-cho player that's going to be very upset. frankly that player couldn't give a rats a about throwing a saber.

I think I like the changes made to the aggressor. Prey on the Weak seems quite fun