But again, VI on Han is a total waste.

Many many players and successful builds would disagree with you.

...and it's not just for shooting before the phantom. VI Han Arc-dodges anything in the game without a turret.

(before you get frisky...know that any Fat Han build has an EU)

But again, VI on Han is a total waste.

Many many players and successful builds would disagree with you.

...and it's not just for shooting before the phantom. VI Han Arc-dodges anything in the game without a turret.

(before you get frisky...know that any Fat Han build has an EU)

Just because something is good doesn't mean it can't be better. Han at PS9 can already arc dodge almost everything in the game. At PS11 you're only adding a couple more ships. And the rest of those you can do it with an initiative bid anyway. Predator gives a huge increase to the Falcon's big weakness: it's firepower.

You said total waste.

That's an opinion. One not supported by anyone observing what's going on in championship and Vassal games right now.

EDIT:

Never heard anyone call Han Solo's firepower a weakness before. That sure is a new one. FWIW, Han's ability when combined with Luke or gunner (another thing one always takes) makes the addition of Predator a questionable 'auto-include' that personally I would consider....redundant.

You said total waste.

That's an opinion. One not supported by anyone observing what's going on in championship and Vassal games right now.

::sigh:: Now you're just getting into semantics.

How about, 99% of the time...Predator is better than VI on a Fat Han. Or, maybe you could try running a VI Han against a Predator Han and see what happens?

With Rebel Aces you have a new ship that will deal with both Fat Han and Phantoms.

Nera.

Turret Torps is what will kill Phantoms, which in turn, will make builds that can eat Fat Falcons not have to face so many phantoms, and thus, kill more falcons.

My idea?

Nera + Deadeye + Flechette Torps + Proton Torps + Munition Failsafe

Wedge + Outmanuever + R7T1

Biggs + R2F3 + Experimental Interface

Why low on the model count and hp count, Wedge can punch holes in both Phantoms and Falcons. As can Nera. Biggs is there to make sure both get a chance to fire twice. That should kill a phantom and maim a Falcon.

I'd support predator is better, it replaces his ability against swarms, as 2 die rerolls should get what you want. It also gives you more options against higher than PS 2 targets. And to further agree with him, the PS 8-9 ships that really want vi include who? Wes only if a higher PS ship is there. And cracken for the same reason. All the other ones would rather have predator, or swarm tactics, or squad leader. There's really nothing he'd have to go before with vi that he couldn't with a 2 pt initiative bid. Really its only good when your desperate for shooting before whisper, but predator would still be excellent in that situation, and with a 2 pt bid you'll go before whisper anyway.

I think we over emphisize lists in this discussion. One of the things I love about this game over other table top gams is that how you play is more important that what you bring. At least in comparison to other games like Attack Wing or Warhammer.

The discussion about how to fight Falcons should focus on how do you fly against them. One of the things that makes falcons easy to play / hard to play against is that falcons fly very differently than other ships.

First let's talk about how to fly a falcon.

It is pretty simple: minimize the number of ships you are engage with each round. The Falcon has very few, but high quality attack dice. Falcons are very good at shooting at one ship a round. With C3PO and Falcon Title they are also very good at getting shot at by a single ship every round. If a Falcon can face you fleet piece meal then it will do very well. If it has to face your whole fleet at the same time they actually do very poorly.

It is often also a good idea to fly your falcon close to the edge. Remember you want to minimize the number of ships you want to engage with on any given turn. When you are close to an endge the total area on the board that you can be attacked from is reduced. Also other it will mean that your opponents ships (who have to face you to shoot) will likely be facing a board edge. This might make future moves difficult.

There are a couple of ships that excell when they can avoid their opponents arcs. These are the Interceptor and the Phantom. These two ships specifically are at a dissadvatage against any ship that can fire in a 360 arc. But they are only 2 out of many ships in the range. They may represent more or less than their share in the meta, but that is not a discussion that I would like to continue here.

If that is how you fly a Falcon (HSF or Fat Han or any number of other builds) how to you fly agains them.

Really it is pretty simple: Attack together or not at all. Also if your opponent does choose to hug a board edge then take advantage of the fact that you know where they are going to be. Take a couple more turns to engage them and really do it right.

One Final Note on C3PO. Yes, it comes in a $95 pack, making it a very expensive card if you don't use the Tantive or its other upgrades very much. But it isn't quite as great as people make it out to be. It is less effective IMO as the Milenium Falcon Title.

3PO cn only be used once a turn. If used properly it gives you an evade if you roll poorly and nothing if you roll well. But it does garantee one evade roll. This effectily increases your expected number of evades by only a half an evade. The Falcon Title gives you the evade action, garanteeing one more evade then you would otherwise get. The argument could be made that together they are better than they are appart, and sure that is true, but they both still only protect you from one attack. Any good (well actioned) attack will probably get at least 2 hits even if you only started with 2 attack dice. So the Falcon (with 3PO and the Title) can pretty much ignore the first shot it takes each turn. But after that its 1 agility is pretty animic. It does have a ton of shields and hull, and you probably can't kill it in a single turn. But once you do kill it you have probably one your round if you are in a tournament.

How about, 99% of the time...Predator is better than VI on a Fat Han. Or, maybe you could try running a VI Han against a Predator Han and see what happens?

Well, considering I'm not worried about my firepower b/c I like to run Luke, I would shoot first every time. I would take that over your redundant ability.

After that you're talking about pilot skill. Predator Han has no ultra powerful advantage over VI Han. To say so is absurd, and again, lots of good players and their lists AND the meta are all disagreeing with you.

I'd support predator is better, it replaces his ability against swarms, as 2 die rerolls should get what you want. It also gives you more options against higher than PS 2 targets. And to further agree with him, the PS 8-9 ships that really want vi include who? Wes only if a higher PS ship is there. And cracken for the same reason. All the other ones would rather have predator, or swarm tactics, or squad leader. There's really nothing he'd have to go before with vi that he couldn't with a 2 pt initiative bid. Really its only good when your desperate for shooting before whisper, but predator would still be excellent in that situation, and with a 2 pt bid you'll go before whisper anyway.

VI Han beats Whisper period.

Bidding CAN beat Whisper. Unless there is a bid on that side as well...which is common to beat Han in the first place. You're leaving it up to chance who beats who.

VI Han is a well known HARD counter to Whisper builds....TOTALLY viable in competitive play. Saying that VI on Han is a waste simply ignores the Meta as it is right now. It's not really a very good opinion.

When considering Han Solo or "Fat Han"

Predator better than VI=opinion

VI better than Predator=opinion

VI waste on Solo=opinion not supported by top level play

VI on Solo is a viable counter to Phantom builds=opinion supported by top level play

I'd support predator is better, it replaces his ability against swarms, as 2 die rerolls should get what you want. It also gives you more options against higher than PS 2 targets. And to further agree with him, the PS 8-9 ships that really want vi include who? Wes only if a higher PS ship is there. And cracken for the same reason. All the other ones would rather have predator, or swarm tactics, or squad leader. There's really nothing he'd have to go before with vi that he couldn't with a 2 pt initiative bid. Really its only good when your desperate for shooting before whisper, but predator would still be excellent in that situation, and with a 2 pt bid you'll go before whisper anyway.

VI Han beats Whisper period.

Bidding CAN beat Whisper. Unless there is a bid on that side as well...which is common to beat Han in the first place. You're leaving it up to chance who beats who.

VI Han is a well known HARD counter to Whisper builds....TOTALLY viable in competitive play. Saying that VI on Han is a waste simply ignores the Meta as it is right now. It's not really an opinion.

When considering Han Solo or "Fat Han"

Predator better than VI=opinion

VI better than Predator=opinion

VI waste on Solo=opinion not supported by top level play

VI on Solo is a viable counter to Phantom builds=opinion supported by top level play

you keep referencing top level play as an argument. Are you one of the top level players? Can you recite exactly why they picked vi rather than an initiative bid? Perhaps there's something in that, but tossing aside a reasonable point against you because its opinion seems rather immature.

I simply offered a valid reason why predator could be better, in what's supposed to be fat Hans biggest weakness (swarms) predator helps immensely in insuring 2-3 hits per attack, unlike Hans ability, which forces a full reroll.

also as an aside, vi only helps against a certain build of phantom, a vi Han against a double sigma or 4 sigma build like what i prefer would be alot better for me.

I've run an Imperial list that killed a Falcon in 3 turns, but the pilot was still new. It was:

Buzzsaw Shuttle

Col. Vessery w/ VI

Turr Phennirr w/ PTL and Shield upgrade

Shuttle kept TL on the Falcon, which gave Vessery the TL. He picked Focus and between three ships with 3 attack dice, it was enough. These ships are either pretty green die heavy or solid (shuttle). It was enough. I'm not sure how it will handle Phantoms, though.

I've got a Rebel list that's been handling Phantoms, but I've not tried it vs. a Falcon yet:

Etahn w/ PTL & R2

Ten Numb w/ VI

Wedge w/ R7-T1

I'd like to think that it would do well. Keep Etahn alive, but shooting. Ten Numb will hopefully be passing a crit through each time he shoots. Wedge will reduce C3PO and hopefully be getting crits in, as well. It's a good amount of red dice and I am hoping it's enough to hit the Falcon.

Deadshane is right: VI Han is the only reliable hard counter to Whisper. Yes, Predator on Han is nice vs. Whisper, but VI is better (again, only vs. this specific matchup). Shooting at a two Agility ship vs. a four Agility ship is huge, especially because it's almost certain that Whisper will have a focus for defense.

When I fly Whisper against Fat Han, I leave him alone until I've dealt with the non-Falcon part of the list. Whisper probably lasts two turns against Han, but can do a lot of damage in those two turns. He'll still need help to take Han down.

Just between the two Defenders, they are reliably rolling 8 hits every turn. They can usually kill a Falcon before a Falcon can kill one of them.

How do you get HLCs to hit on all four dice every turn?

The Jonus rerolls mostly and there's a good chance each one will have a focus if you didn't use it on Defense.

^

This. Jonus rerolls are the BEST!

Did he just call me immature in a thread where we're talking about plastic toys?

Rex with mini-swarm should be able to reliably do the job, even more so with Lonewolf coming since we'll be able to squeeze Howlrunner in there:

Rexler Brath + HLC + Lonewolf

Howlrunner

Academy Pilot x3

I would also be tempted to try this team:

Delta Squadron Pilot + HLC

Soontir Fel + PtL + TC + Hull Upgrade

Royal Guard + PtL + Hull Upgrade

You have the Delta that can deliver a lot of pain at the end of the turn (when the Falcon doesn't have evade and 3PO left) and both Interceptor that can take a beating with Focus+Evade and trying to outmaneuver the escort. If you don't care about the Hull upgrades, you could upgrade the Delta to a Onyx so he shoot earlier and the Royal to Carnor so he can mess with the Falcon Evade action. But against a Falcon with Gunner, I think you are better to take a Hull for each Interceptors.

Bombers with their missiles and 6 Hull each could certainly do the job.

Jonus

Scimitar Squadron + Cluster Missiles + Flechette Torpedoes

Scimitar Squadron + Cluster Missiles + Flechette Torpedoes

Soontir Fel + PtL + Hull Upgrade

He's expensive, but Maj. Rhymer + Cluster + APT + PTL would be a danger to any falcon. Launch the Clusters at Range 3. Then follow up with APTs. Trick will be keeping the Maj. alive to shoots his APTs and the he's expensive at 39 points. Maybe pair him with a Shuttle + ties.

I'm just going to say this now, the falcon doesn't completely counter the phantom and I am more then happy to fight one. An evade token phantom at range 2-3 will only be taking a single, to at most 2 damage. This allows the phantom at least 2 shots at the falcon, that's 8 dice (second shot for my builds would have a TL), possibly half the health of the falcon, so I find that a fair trade. Not to mention the other friendly ships firing at the falcon (the phantom should be able to arc dodge the escorts). So I see it as a sacrificial lamb that does a chunk of change before being snuffed out.

He's expensive, but Maj. Rhymer + Cluster + APT + PTL would be a danger to any falcon. Launch the Clusters at Range 3. Then follow up with APTs. Trick will be keeping the Maj. alive to shoots his APTs and the he's expensive at 39 points. Maybe pair him with a Shuttle + ties.

I ran this last weekend. It's certainly effective, but you have to be very careful to keep Rhymer pointed in the right direction. I set up 1st turn shot, but the Falcon was able to Boost out of it by a hair's width. At that point, my stressed bomber was unable to come around and got tangled up in the Z-95s.

Every time I fired Advanced Proton Torpedoes that afternoon I got at 5 hits or crits, but it was very hard to clear the stress while keeping the enemy in arc for a follow-up with the Cluster Missiles.

I'd support predator is better, it replaces his ability against swarms, as 2 die rerolls should get what you want. It also gives you more options against higher than PS 2 targets. And to further agree with him, the PS 8-9 ships that really want vi include who? Wes only if a higher PS ship is there. And cracken for the same reason. All the other ones would rather have predator, or swarm tactics, or squad leader. There's really nothing he'd have to go before with vi that he couldn't with a 2 pt initiative bid. Really its only good when your desperate for shooting before whisper, but predator would still be excellent in that situation, and with a 2 pt bid you'll go before whisper anyway.

VI Han beats Whisper period.

Bidding CAN beat Whisper. Unless there is a bid on that side as well...which is common to beat Han in the first place. You're leaving it up to chance who beats who.

VI Han is a well known HARD counter to Whisper builds....TOTALLY viable in competitive play. Saying that VI on Han is a waste simply ignores the Meta as it is right now. It's not really a very good opinion.

When considering Han Solo or "Fat Han"

Predator better than VI=opinion

VI better than Predator=opinion

VI waste on Solo=opinion not supported by top level play

VI on Solo is a viable counter to Phantom builds=opinion supported by top level play

Just so I get this straight...since VI is better on Han against 1 SINGULAR SHIP and worse in every other matchup it's a good use of an upgrade?

And you may be surprised to hear this...but a lot of "top level" Han users don't use VI...

I'd support predator is better, it replaces his ability against swarms, as 2 die rerolls should get what you want. It also gives you more options against higher than PS 2 targets. And to further agree with him, the PS 8-9 ships that really want vi include who? Wes only if a higher PS ship is there. And cracken for the same reason. All the other ones would rather have predator, or swarm tactics, or squad leader. There's really nothing he'd have to go before with vi that he couldn't with a 2 pt initiative bid. Really its only good when your desperate for shooting before whisper, but predator would still be excellent in that situation, and with a 2 pt bid you'll go before whisper anyway.

VI Han beats Whisper period.

Bidding CAN beat Whisper. Unless there is a bid on that side as well...which is common to beat Han in the first place. You're leaving it up to chance who beats who.

VI Han is a well known HARD counter to Whisper builds....TOTALLY viable in competitive play. Saying that VI on Han is a waste simply ignores the Meta as it is right now. It's not really a very good opinion.

When considering Han Solo or "Fat Han"

Predator better than VI=opinion

VI better than Predator=opinion

VI waste on Solo=opinion not supported by top level play

VI on Solo is a viable counter to Phantom builds=opinion supported by top level play

Just so I get this straight...since VI is better on Han against 1 SINGULAR SHIP and worse in every other matchup it's a good use of an upgrade?

And you may be surprised to hear this...but a lot of "top level" Han users don't use VI...

If that singular ship poses a much greater threat than whatever those other matchups are, then yeah, it's a good upgrade. Maybe not the best, but for 1 pt it can't hurt.

Honestly - I get VI on a lot of ships, but on Han, especially against Phantoms, I just don't see the point.

Han has a PS9. Only Vader, Wedge, Soontir have the same PS. There are 14 other pilots that have an 8 PS - Luke, Horton (though he doesn't have an EPT unless he uses R2-D6), Howlrunner, Tycho, Boba Fett, Ten Numb, Jan Ors, Captain Kagi, Cracken, Corran Horn, Rexler Brath, Rear Admiral Chiraneau, Carnor Jax, and Wes Janson.

The likelihood of Han needing Veteran Instincts is slim - Vader is seldom used at all (though that may change with Proton Rockets), Wedge is a good counter to the Falcon, but doesn't see a lot of play due to his cost, and Soontir is a glass cannon, likely to go down pretty quickly if he gets too close to the Falcon.

Of the PS8 pilots, few of them are real threats in a PS bidding war - Rexler, Carnor Jax, and Howlrunner are probably the three most obvious - but putting VI on Carnor is just dumb when you should be putting PTL on him, Howlrunner is a threat with the swarm more than anything, but 2 attack dice from her aren't a major deal. Wes Janson is interesting, and VI might be a good choice for him. Boba as well. But for almost all of the others, Veteran Instincts just doesn't make a lot of sense when there are other upgrades to put on them.

So, to my way of thinking, PS 9 is 'good enough'. With it, I wouldn't be worried about Phantoms (they shoot after, even with Veteran Instincts)***. So would Veteran Instincts be a waste? I think so - there are plenty of other more viable upgrades that can be placed on Han. Predator helps maximize Han's damage potential, Marksmanship helps buff it as well (funny how people have moved on from marksmanship in the new meta).

If you're looking for a way to spend that one last point in your list, then Veteran Instincts can't hurt. But given the choice (and having the available points) I would put something else on Han. But that's my opinion only I suppose.

***Unless of course they have won the initiative bid

Other pilots will be using their EPT for V.I. so they can shoot first, instead of Han.

It is one point EPT that ensures you will only be tied with PS by 3 other pilots, who have to have taken V.I. as well.

A good point in taking V.I. is that Wes runs around with V.I. at PS 10 quite frequently.

Other pilots will be using their EPT for V.I. so they can shoot first, instead of Han.

It is one point EPT that ensures you will only be tied with PS by 3 other pilots, who have to have taken V.I. as well.

A good point in taking V.I. is that Wes runs around with V.I. at PS 10 quite frequently.

well, Wes will take vi if wedge or a vi luke is there, otherwise its kinda pointless on him since it really doesn't help his ability unless someone would normally shoot before him, ie wedge, Luke, Han.

and its not a major deal if wes shoots first since all he does is make you spend the evade you probably would have anyway, and your still better at moving than an x wing.

like it was said earlier, it doesn't hurt if you have only one free point, but you could do better in most all matchups, save whisper

But anyone who has a bump to PS 9 isn't necessarily going to shoot before Han - unless they win the Initiative bid. The real kicker is when someone puts Roark on the table and bumps someone to 12 - VI won't help with that anyways.

@Trustybroom

I love how you put words in my mouth in order to support your desperate argument.

I never said that VI was better than Predator. I said it's my opinion that it's redundant, but I'm not really arguing that point.

YOU said that VI was a waste on Solo. In this meta...that's just not true.