On Buhallin's strategy thread, noticed one person say that yeah, everyone says the Falcon can be countered, but nobody says what the Falcon counters are. Swarm comes up a lot but often with few details beyond that.

So, rather than another thread on the Falcon being broken, figured why not have one sharing information how to take this thing down? Han Shoots First in his many incarnations is by no means an old list. What of yours has triumphed against the Falcon? What lists take it down reliably? What flying tactics make the Falcon's flight difficult and brings you closer to landing that final shot that blows it into dust on the stellar wind?

Jonus Brothers or a swarm.

Lots of counters to the Falcon. Swarms, anything that throws lots of RED at it early.

Less counters to the Falcon that ALSO counter Phantom...this is sort of what's defining the Meta right now.

By Jonus Brothers do you mean Captain Jonus and two HLC Deltas? That actually works?

Less counters to the Falcon that ALSO counter Phantom...this is sort of what's defining the Meta right now.

If the Falcon's so good against the phantom how is the phantom getting high up rankings? Surely the sheer volume of the Falcons should be killing it off, making it less of an issue?

If they can stay in-arc they're good due to their durability.

If one of them goes down early though...

It's not a certain counter...but VI Han is a strong counter, and commonly considered to counter Whisper.

Arc-dodging is what the phantom is all about. You cannot arc-dodge a Falcon's shot, and the Phantom is fragile.

EDIT: Oh, you were replying to my post. Another post managed to sneak in the middle.

By Jonus Brothers do you mean Captain Jonus and two HLC Deltas? That actually works?

Just between the two Defenders, they are reliably rolling 8 hits every turn. They can usually kill a Falcon before a Falcon can kill one of them.

Less counters to the Falcon that ALSO counter Phantom...this is sort of what's defining the Meta right now.

If the Falcon's so good against the phantom how is the phantom getting high up rankings? Surely the sheer volume of the Falcons should be killing it off, making it less of an issue?

A Falcon isn't necessarily a direct counter to a Phantom. A Falcon with gunner on the other hand...

Even so, a Phantom with Intelligence Agent can stay away from a Falcon relatively easily. Or a Phantom with Sensor Jammer can take a surprising amount of damage as a Falcon is often not focusing.

Just between the two Defenders, they are reliably rolling 8 hits every turn. They can usually kill a Falcon before a Falcon can kill one of them.

How do you get HLCs to hit on all four dice every turn?

Just between the two Defenders, they are reliably rolling 8 hits every turn. They can usually kill a Falcon before a Falcon can kill one of them.

How do you get HLCs to hit on all four dice every turn?

The Jonus rerolls mostly and there's a good chance each one will have a focus if you didn't use it on Defense.

I've had success with:

Rexler Brath + HLC + Predator/Outmaneuver + Hull Upgrade

Royal Guard TIE + Outmaneuver

Royal Guard TIE + Outmaneuver

or:

Delta Squadron + Ion Cannon

Delta Squadron + Ion Cannon

Scimitar Squadron

Scimitar Squadron + Seismic Charge

or:

Vessery + Outmaneuver + Ion Cannon

Omicron Group Pilot + Advanced Sensors + Tactician + Weapons Engineer + ST-321 + Ion Cannon + APL

Black Squadron Pilot + Outmaneuver

98 points

Defenders, Bombers and Interceptors.

You guys have no idea how much it warms my heart to see this.

List that I'm working on to counter the falcon; is Vessery w/outmaneuver and 3x scimitar with cluster missiles. Once the initial payload is away keep target locks on to maximise Vessery's ability which if you keep at range 2 nicely negates 3PO.

A variant I want to try is swapping Vessery for a delta w/HLC and bringing in Jonus to buff the initial missile strike and the hlc.

Won it's inaugural falcon tussle but want to see how it fares against a variety of lists before unleashing on a tourney!

Defenders, Bombers and Interceptors.

You guys have no idea how much it warms my heart to see this.

Yeah, I hate how people write the Interceptor off just because it can't arc dodge. It's like "dude, it's still got 3 attack and 3 agility. Just stick to range 2-3 if you can." Besides, unless you're going in for the kill, range 1 is much more advantageous for the Falcon than it is for many Imperial craft anyway.

Three TIE Defenders and no more Falcon. IF you go at it the right way. TIE Bombers are okay too, but the Falcon can get around them. If you want to be sure and nail that coffin shut, go with a seriously flown TIE Swarm or the terrible trio of Defenders.

There is no way to kill a Falcon with Rebel ships because rebel ships do NOT fight against each other ever, period, what the hell is wrong with you anyhow for doing this ever?!

Did you watch the films?!

You'd be surprised how many rebels spend as much time fighting each other as the establishment...

You'd be surprised how many rebels spend as much time fighting each other as the establishment...

I'm all for the People's Front of the Rebel Alliance, not those splitters in the Rebel Alliance People's Front. And don't get me started on the Rebel Alliance Popular People's Front!

I know... it is a wargame and you got to fight something.

4 academies and 4 obsidians stand a good chance against phantoms and can deal with fat Han.

Just clog the field with bodies to prevent it from going over the swarm and you should be able to deal with it in 2 (max 3) shooting phases. A fat Han list will not drop enough Ties to survive when you have 8 of them.

It is not 3P0 that makes a Fat Han a pain in the but, it is engine upgrade that allows the big base ship to cross half the board in one move, therefor flying out of range/arc of any persuers.

I would counter with the Decimator with Engine upgrade and Vessery with HLC, with a tie fighter thrown in with a T.C.

It is not 3P0 that makes a Fat Han a pain in the but, it is engine upgrade that allows the big base ship to cross half the board in one move, therefor flying out of range/arc of any persuers.

I would counter with the Decimator with Engine upgrade and Vessery with HLC, with a tie fighter thrown in with a T.C.

Engine on a Falcon isn't a huge deal. Since the Falcon's base is so large, you need to be mostly out of arc BEFORE you boost for it to have a big effect. It's a lot easier to escape arcs with a boost on a smaller ship.

Now if you were referring to the old large-ship barrel roll I would totally agree with you. That was just ridiculous.

A Falcon isn't necessarily a direct counter to a Phantom. A Falcon with gunner on the other hand...

Even so, a Phantom with Intelligence Agent can stay away from a Falcon relatively easily. Or a Phantom with Sensor Jammer can take a surprising amount of damage as a Falcon is often not focusing.

I also think you're overestimating both the capabilities and usage of both Sensor Jammer and Intelligence Agent. Sensor Jammer for the price versus a) what it can do and b) how easily it can be made worthless by an opponent's choice of action, and Intelligence Agent for the a) competing choices of equally good or better crew and b) the limitation of the decloak (and barrel roll I guess but I don't think a phantom is using its barrel roll more than 1/10 actions) being the only way to react to Intel Agent's information, on one ship.

To rehash what's been stated, what can beat a fat Falcon is any list that leans towards one or more of the following:

-More than two ships shooting at the Falcon in any given turn.

(I say two is the minimum because the Falcon can use C-3PO once, so it'll choose to nerf one of the attacks. Two attacks at least forces there to be a choice made; anytime a choice is made, there's a chance of the opponent making the wrong choice. You want more than two ships because the Falcon can spend its attacks attempting to focus down one of the attackers.)

-Outmaneuver.

(Since that completely shuts down C-3PO on any ship equipped with it.)

-Large numbers of red dice.

(This can work, but it is less effective than large numbers of ships, here's why-- C-3PO will always be reserved for this attack [so use it with Outmaneuver when possible], and these will be the high priority ships to take down, for both the Falcon and its escorts. The best result C-3PO + actions can assist in giving is 3 evade results for one attack [or, if at Range 3, the best result it can get is 5 evade results, although this would be rare], so it's not reliable enough to have only one ship with a large number of red dice.)

-Abilities that allow you to modify your dice results.

(Jonus Brothers is a highlight here-- because it has Jonus giving 2 dice rerolls to 4-dice attacks. Howlrunner swarms are another [obvious?] choice, for both the 1 dice reroll and the number of ships shooting.)

Here's a list no one's posted yet. The name of this list is Juggernaut, it is being used in the Team Covenant tournament, I wrote it down, and I'm sorry that I don't have on hand the name of the person who's using it.

Captain Oicunn

-Intimidation

-Tactical Jammer

(45)

Howlrunner

-Determination

(19)

Academy Pilot x3

(12x3=36)

100 points

And the advantages should be straightforward:

-Ram the Falcon with Oicunn for a) 1 damage that it cannot cancel with C-3PO, b) a portion of its 360 arc that fires obstructed attacks due to Tactical Jammer, and c) reduced agility value due to Intimidation (assuming the Falcon remains blocked), eliminating C-3PO for all Range 1-2 attacks.

-Greater than 2 ships attacking the Falcon.

-Modifiable attack dice from Howlrunner's ability.

In this list, Oicunn obviously poses a huge threat in a support role to the Falcon, so he'll be the target of the escorts' attacks. Silver lining, the miniswarm will frequently be the lower priority targets. Howlrunner is also a key element and this makes her a priority target, too.

The drawback is that it could prove to be difficult to ram the Falcon multiple turns consecutively, and even more difficult to ram it in such a way that Intimidation triggers more than once in the game, since the VT-49 has no K-turn. This might not be so bad, since the Academy Pilots can help remedy the problem by positioning to block moves that would take the Falcon out of contact with Oicunn, so Intimidation may still trigger, but this may come at the expense of a) having the Falcon consistently in arc of all ships, especially for several turns in a row and b) not all ships will be able to benefit from Howlrunner's ability if they're blocking efficiently.

Though I haven't had the chance to try this one out yet (need a few more Z-95's) this one looks promising - and yeah, I realize it's ordnance heavy and some think that's a waste of points..

Airen Cracken

-Cluster Missiles

-Veteran Instincts

Lieutenant Blount

-Assault Missiles

Bandit Squadron Pilot x3

-Homing Missiles

-Munitions Failsafe

In theory, Cracken should have a higher PS than Fat Han, so he attacks first. Using Cluster missiles, on the first attack, he passes an action to a Bandit (TL), and on the second cluster attack does the same to another Bandit. If 3PO activates - oh well..

Blount attacks using the assault missile, hopefully damaging any escort as well.

Now the Bandit line up for their attacks - homing missile prevent the use of evades, sooo, Han is a sitting duck.

22 dice being thrown in the first round, provided none of the Z's get taken out. Even averaging out to half making it through, that's 11 dice.. Han should be down in the second turn at the latest..

that's the theory anyways. How well it works is to be seen.

Homing missiles are made to take on Han. A couple of bombers loaded up with them would ruin Han's day, and would arguably be more survivable..

On Outmaneuver, I'll reiterate an excellent point of DreadStar's: for Outmaneuver to stop 3PO, every ship shooting the Falcon has to have it. Otherwise 3PO will simply trigger on a different ship.

A Falcon isn't necessarily a direct counter to a Phantom. A Falcon with gunner on the other hand...

Even so, a Phantom with Intelligence Agent can stay away from a Falcon relatively easily. Or a Phantom with Sensor Jammer can take a surprising amount of damage as a Falcon is often not focusing.

Veteran Han is absolutely a direct counter to a Phantom-- at least, any ACD Phantom. With or without Gunner.

I also think you're overestimating both the capabilities and usage of both Sensor Jammer and Intelligence Agent. Sensor Jammer for the price versus a) what it can do and b) how easily it can be made worthless by an opponent's choice of action, and Intelligence Agent for the a) competing choices of equally good or better crew and b) the limitation of the decloak (and barrel roll I guess but I don't think a phantom is using its barrel roll more than 1/10 actions) being the only way to react to Intel Agent's information, on one ship.

Don't agree with this. If we assume that the Falcon is throwing a 3-die attack against a 2-die defense and they both have focus, the Falcon is only going to average a point of damage against the Phantom. If the Phantom took evade instead, that's even better for the Phantom. Han's re-roll is nice, but you have to re-roll everything. You could get a better result, or you could get a worse one. Gunner just lets you fire again when the Phantom hopefully doesn't have a token, which puts the odds much higher in your favor.

Also, I think VI is a waste on Han. You're much better off giving him Predator and going for an initiative points bid.

And also, Sensor Jammer is amazing. Really and truly amazing especially on a Phantom. It really hurts Hans re-rolls. Also, it forces the opponent to most likely spend their focus. Not to mention that a focusing Falcon isn't evading.

But again, VI on Han is a total waste. Slap on Predator and a points bid and you're in a much better spot.