It seems from the force powers in FaD, that FFG has specifically avoided the idea of a "dark side power."

So I'll ask the question: in the realm of homebrew/potential future powers, do people think that force powers that are only dark side have a place in the current game design?

I'm thinking specifically of a homebrew power we had that mimicked rage/hatred powers discussed in EU sources like Book of the Sith and similar to the sith saber techniques of dun moch. After reviewing the powers and really thinking about it, the problem I come up against is that I can understand why dark only powers may not be appropriate, and I can't think of a non-dark side to this kind of force ability.

Edit: resurrected this thread by using Harm and killing another thread. Got some conflict for that.

I restated the question a touch in post 16. for those new comers.

Actually, I was thinking something more along the lines of Sith Alchemy as a purely "dark side" power, since it's been noted multiple times as being "unnatural" and a perversion of the natural order of things. Which to me means it's about as solidly a dark side effect as you can get.

As for other powers, prior to FaD being released, I would have said effects like Harm and Unleash would be prime examples of purely "dark side" powers, but the FFG design team felt otherwise. Possibly even to avoid bloating the book with too many new powers.

Dun Moch is really just Coercion checks to psychologically break someone done, with the Influence Control Upgrade to spend Force points to add successes for extra oomph or just the Control Emotions talent.

And I never saw Sith alchemy as a power but as a spec in a sith career. Funny how people see things differently.

That's certainly one way to model dun moch, but Bane (and others) often discuss using dun moch in conjunction with the hatred force abilities to interfere with your opponent and throw them off balance. I can see it go a lot of ways, just as the lightsaber styles are more of a whole than just one talent in a tree.

So a true dun moch master may have a force power that enhances the basic abilities (like fearsome, terrify, and coercion) in the same way sense enhances improved reflect.

Coming back to my original point though, do people think powers should ever be dark only? Because the design trend indicates that is not the route to take. Or should Dark abilities be mimicked in talents... or is there really room in the game for anything that didactic (meaning, should there be defined dark only abilities for PCs to reach for)?

It seems from the force powers in FaD, that FFG has specifically avoided the idea of a "dark side power."

So I'll ask the question: in the realm of homebrew/potential future powers, do people think that force powers that are only dark side have a place in the current game design?

I'm thinking specifically of a homebrew power we had that mimicked rage/hatred powers discussed in EU sources like Book of the Sith and similar to the sith saber techniques of dun moch. After reviewing the powers and really thinking about it, the problem I come up against is that I can understand why dark only powers may not be appropriate, and I can't think of a non-dark side to this kind of force ability.

Rage could be mimicked by any number of abilities. The he that pops into my head immediately is the Enhance power, especially the Brawn-enhancing line, using dark side pips to generate the necessary Force points.

Dun Möch is most easily emulated with the Coercion skill, the Influence power, and especially the Scathing Tirade line of talents.

Yeah. The Jedi in "The Jedi Path" point out that Dun Moch is a legitimate and possible strategy during combat. Inherently there is nothing Dark Side about it.

Possibly even to avoid bloating the book with too many new powers.

This. A solid balance of general & specific, like with the Force powers, will usually result in less bloat, which IMO is a good thing

No power is ever "purely" Dark Side (aside from directly harming another ala Unleash). It is all the Force.

aside from directly harming another ala Unleash

Either way, there are Dark Side powers according to the RAW, though what that means isn't really clear. Not sure why the game needs something that can only be accessed by Dark Side Force Users.

Interesting discussion.

But one of the things I don't agree with is that Unleash should be, in itself, a dark side power, since it becomes fo de lighting (which IS dark side!) only with several upgrades.

Also, I don't see why the basic power should always grant 1 conflict, considering that the target could be a droid or even a object. The basic power could very well simply be an application of focused and strong telekinesis (a force "punch" for example)

Interesting discussion.

Also, I don't see why the basic power should always grant 1 conflict, considering that the target could be a droid or even a object.

Maybe to use the Unleash power, a force user must channel his anger/aggression. Perhaps that could explain the point of conflict.

Maybe to use the Unleash power, a force user must channel his anger/aggression. Perhaps that could explain the point of conflict.

This is precisely the case. The base power for Unleash calls this out explicitly.

In the game, using certain powers is going to generate conflict, no matter the situation. This doesn't mean you are suddenly dark. Sometimes people have to do bad things for good reasons in extreme situations. These types of actions weigh heavily on most people. In game you may gather positive and negative conflict after sessions with your score ebbing and flowing. Too much negative and you may have to atone for what you have done by walking the straight and narrow for a while. For some characters this may mean not using such abilities for fear of slipping to the dark side. Or you may just keep taking the easy path and keep slipping to the dark side. The game promotes whatever type of play you want.

As for other powers, prior to FaD being released, I would have said effects like Harm and Unleash would be prime examples of purely "dark side" powers, but the FFG design team felt otherwise. Possibly even to avoid bloating the book with too many new powers.

Also avoids the problem of people investing beaucoup XP in powers that can only be used light or dark, and thus characters (for purely metagame reasons) being wedded to one side of the Force despite the story. This way, your investment isn't lost -- see you on the other side...

I think for me Lorne hit the crux of the issue. Should a power be, even in home brew, designed in such a way that it presents an xp sink if the user strays from the path that the power is on. Talents and powers shouldn't automatically be useful/useless if you stray too far to the light or dark, but making a dark only power is a sort of defacto railroading.

So thread-o-mancy here a touch, but in light of the changes to terrify, I want to pose the original thread's question:

For homebrew or other possible future game elements, is it consistent with the game theme to have force powers/abilities that are purely dark side?

The change to terrify, and more importantly the hinting of more to come speaks that there is room for dark only powers, but if something like unleash or harm aren't inherently corrupting simply for knowing them, what would be the narrative and mechanical space for force powers that are dark only?

Hopefully this is an interesting question...

The change to terrify, and more importantly the hinting of more to come speaks that there is room for dark only powers, but if something like unleash or harm aren't inherently corrupting simply for knowing them, what would be the narrative and mechanical space for force powers that are dark only?

There will be room for Grimdark Sparkly Vampires in Black who are clearly Gother-than-thou, and very dark, because they bought the dark talents down at Hot Topic in the mall and need not get their hands dirty actually doing evil to become and remain darkest-of-them-all.

At least you're taking an interest... per se

[caption for haley: picture of the south park kids dressed up in gothic/vampire costumes, from the episode where the cool goth kid says per se all the freaking time, and has ruined that word/phrase for me]

I think it's okay to have powers that are inherently Light or Dark Side, some things are just not going to be touched by a Dark Sider because it's just not in their nature and other things are corrupting in their use. It makes total sense to me to have powers that push one way or another.

At least you're taking an interest... per se

[caption for haley: picture of the south park kids dressed up in gothic/vampire costumes, from the episode where the cool goth kid says per se all the freaking time, and has ruined that word/phrase for me]

Our cruisers can't withstand eyeliner of that magnitude! +5 Conflict per close-up.