will you ever want the PS 2 bomber? I think it becomes a much less appealing choice.
PS2 Bomber + 3 pt Missile = 19 points
PS4 Bomber + 3 pt missile + 3 pt EPT = 24 points
I'm thinking you would still see plenty of PS2 Bombers for ~5 points less each. 3 of those is 15 points, almost enough to toss Backstabber into the squad.
Has anyone else tried out a few double delta defender lists? I believe that the math doesn't show it yet just because people haven't really started running it, but man there is no way they need their points lowered. And that Onyx fix...wow. That would be pretty beast. Well beyond "competitive".
Has anyone else tried out a few double delta defender lists? I believe that the math doesn't show it yet just because people haven't really started running it, but man there is no way they need their points lowered. And that Onyx fix...wow. That would be pretty beast. Well beyond "competitive".
I would disagree from my experience. Why do you think it would be that good?
I've found Deltas to be good, but not game breaking. Also still usually can die to Phantoms evading all day.
Has anyone else tried out a few double delta defender lists? I believe that the math doesn't show it yet just because people haven't really started running it, but man there is no way they need their points lowered. And that Onyx fix...wow. That would be pretty beast. Well beyond "competitive".
What exactly can a Double Defender list do with those 4 extra points that would break the game?
Same with the Onyx; how do 2 extra points and an EPT slot suddenly make it the best ship in the game? What would you even do with the EPT? Looking through the list, nothing you could put on a 30-point Onyx is nasty enough that it would break the game.
Has anyone else tried out a few double delta defender lists? I believe that the math doesn't show it yet just because people haven't really started running it, but man there is no way they need their points lowered. And that Onyx fix...wow. That would be pretty beast. Well beyond "competitive".
What exactly can a Double Defender list do with those 4 extra points that would break the game?
Same with the Onyx; how do 2 extra points and an EPT slot suddenly make it the best ship in the game? What would you even do with the EPT? Looking through the list, nothing you could put on a 30-point Onyx is nasty enough that it would break the game.
I'm thinking that 3x Onyx + Predator would be a nice list, but I can't see how it would be overpowered. I flagged it as testing anyway.
Has anyone else tried out a few double delta defender lists? I believe that the math doesn't show it yet just because people haven't really started running it, but man there is no way they need their points lowered. And that Onyx fix...wow. That would be pretty beast. Well beyond "competitive".
What exactly can a Double Defender list do with those 4 extra points that would break the game?
Same with the Onyx; how do 2 extra points and an EPT slot suddenly make it the best ship in the game? What would you even do with the EPT? Looking through the list, nothing you could put on a 30-point Onyx is nasty enough that it would break the game.
I'm thinking that 3x Onyx + Predator would be a nice list, but I can't see how it would be overpowered. I flagged it as testing anyway.
In my experience of running the normal ships, I don't think it would be game breaking at all. I'm a bit underwhelmed by Defenders when they roll statistically what they should. (They die!)
I had Colonel Vessery be targeted by 4 ships (one was Keyan with 5 dice) for ELEVEN consecutive attacks. Only lost 3 shields. Ate two ships by himself.
I'm thinking that 3x Onyx + Predator would be a nice list, but I can't see how it would be overpowered. I flagged it as testing anyway.
"Nice" is about it, though. They'd probably do well against a Falcon list, providing consistent damage to punch through its defences while tanking a lot of the return fire, but against swarms they'd get blocked and shredded, and against high-PS arc-dodgers I don't see how they could keep up.
I think that, while fun, many of even one point changes significantly change the way the game will play from the way it was designed/balanced.
See for this squad, dropping Vessery 1 point would make this a much better list. 98 pt initiative bid is much better.
Has anyone else tried out a few double delta defender lists? I believe that the math doesn't show it yet just because people haven't really started running it, but man there is no way they need their points lowered. And that Onyx fix...wow. That would be pretty beast. Well beyond "competitive".
What exactly can a Double Defender list do with those 4 extra points that would break the game?
Same with the Onyx; how do 2 extra points and an EPT slot suddenly make it the best ship in the game? What would you even do with the EPT? Looking through the list, nothing you could put on a 30-point Onyx is nasty enough that it would break the game.
I'm thinking that 3x Onyx + Predator would be a nice list, but I can't see how it would be overpowered. I flagged it as testing anyway.
Predator and a white K make you care less about blocking than just about any ship in the game:
Edited by TasteTheRainbowTIE Defender Pilots
The named pilots are OK, but the generics are a very poor value, even with the white K-turn. Originally I was considering simply giving them a 4th shield, since this is what they had historically, but that would make the named pilots too powerful. Note that the Defenders get a -2 cost adjustment vs the -3 cost adjustment on the E-wings, even though both have about the same statline jousting efficiency as the TIE Advanced. I'm putting more value on the Defender's white K-turn than on the upgrade potential of the E-wing, especially since upgrades are generally self-balancing by their point cost anyway.
That could hold true if the defender's dial were similar to the E-Wing. But excluding the K-turns, the defender's dial is horrible compared to the E-Wing's one.
In other words, the Defender's dial auto-balances itself by being poor outside the white 4K. The E-wing surpasses the defender both in upgrades and dial (and in its action bar too). A 3 point reduction on the defender would be more than justified.
That is the exact list I was talking about. It is a little over the top.I'm thinking that 3x Onyx + Predator would be a nice list, but I can't see how it would be overpowered. I flagged it as testing anyway.
Predator and a white K make you care less about blocking than just about any ship in the game:
Well, the only thing that the Defender has going for it is the white K-turn. The white K-turn is less useful on the PS3, because it can get its K-turn blocked by PS1/2. In the case of the PS3, I think it really needs the EPT slot to differentiate itself, otherwise you would always just get the PS1. This is generally true of most ships, but particularly on the Defender that lives and dies by its white K-turn.
The PS1 jousting value of 3/3/3/3 with Predator is about 27 points. PS3 Onyx + Predator costs 33 points with the house rules, so you are certainly still paying a large premium for the K-turn. The short answer is playtest it against a variety of other squads, and see how it does.
TIE Defender Pilots
The named pilots are OK, but the generics are a very poor value, even with the white K-turn. Originally I was considering simply giving them a 4th shield, since this is what they had historically, but that would make the named pilots too powerful. Note that the Defenders get a -2 cost adjustment vs the -3 cost adjustment on the E-wings, even though both have about the same statline jousting efficiency as the TIE Advanced. I'm putting more value on the Defender's white K-turn than on the upgrade potential of the E-wing, especially since upgrades are generally self-balancing by their point cost anyway.
That could hold true if the defender's dial were similar to the E-Wing. But excluding the K-turns, the defender's dial is horrible compared to the E-Wing's one.
In other words, the Defender's dial auto-balances itself by being poor outside the white 4K. The E-wing surpasses the defender both in upgrades and dial (and in its action bar too). A 3 point reduction on the defender would be more than justified.
I'm inclined to agree, but since the white K-turn is so hard to find the appropriate baseline for, I am erring on the side of caution and making it a 2 point cost decrease. It's better to have a few complaints that a ship is still slightly over-costed, than it is to risk making the ship too good.
I think that, while fun, many of even one point changes significantly change the way the game will play from the way it was designed/balanced.
See for this squad, dropping Vessery 1 point would make this a much better list. 98 pt initiative bid is much better.
Soontir Fel (27)Push the Limit (3)Hull Upgrade (3)Targeting Computer (2)Royal Guard TIE (0)Colonel Vessery (35)Outmaneuver (3)Academy Pilot (12)Targeting Computer (2)Academy Pilot (12)Total: 99
For casual play (no house rules) I actually had some fun running:
100 points
Whisper + VI + ACD + FCS + Rebel Captive
OGP + FCS
Vessery
It's perfectly competitive unless you run into PS9 Han and lose initiative roll-off. If Vessery were 1 point less, then at 99 points this could be a very consistent squad. I'm not planning on touching Vessery yet, but if we go another 6 months and rarely see him in tournaments then I will revisit it.
The initiative bid made me worry. I'm starting to think its really impossible for me to come up with a build that is good against everything.
Or at least a good chance against the two bogeymen.
The Nationals list seems to do well against many things.
The Defender's dial is not bad - fly it like a Bomber and it will serve you well.
I just love Tie Bombers; and I hope for a new 'Aces' someday with more pilots and an ETP for Gammas and some other Gimmicks.
The Defenders really are 'bomberish' - but the base Defenders are too expensive.
A Charaan Refit for Defenders would be just nice and sound.
Royal Guard TIE
New card text:
You may equip up to 2 different Modification upgrades (instead of 1). The second modification is 2 points less. You cannot equip this card if your pilot skill is "4" or lower.
Since modifications basically are overcosted by one point, which is fair, because they are modifications. In this case, it would help to reduce costs and encourage players to use modifications on their Interceptors.
Examples:
Royal Guard Pilot (22)
Royal Guard TIE (0)
Stealth Device (3)
Targeting Computer (0)
= 25 points
Royal Guard Pilot (22)
Push the Limit (3)
Royal Guard TIE (0)
Hull Upgrade (3)
Shield Upgrade (2)
= 30 points
Interesting idea, but probably overkill. You occasionally see 2 mods on squint aces anyway in high ranking lists. Let's wait for the unspoiled squint buff in wave 6 starviper expansion. I bet its a mod.
I added a House Rule for Expose. Feedback is welcome!
Original:
House Rule:
Now Expose is useful, without being broken on ships with 0 agility like the VT-49.
Mathematically, the best theoretical value would be to use it on a ship with 2 attack and 1 defense, turning it into 3 attack and 0 defense. But since Expose costs 4 points, the base ship would have to be worth at least 25 points at PS1 to hit the break-even point. The card is still not great, and I generally wouldn't recommend it in a squad, but it is no longer completely useless on agility 1+ ships like it was before.
Edited by MajorJugglerI added a House Rule for Expose. Feedback is welcome!
Original:
- Card text reads: Action: Until the end of the round, increase your primary weapon value by 1 and decrease your agility value by 1.
House Rule:
- Card text now reads: Action: Until the end of the round, increase your primary weapon value by 1 and decrease your agility value by 1, to a minimum of 0. If this reduced your agility, you may perform a free action.
Now Expose is useful, without being broken on ships with 0 agility like the VT-49.
Mathematically, the best theoretical value would be to use it on a ship with 2 attack and 1 defense, turning it into 3 attack and 0 defense. But since Expose costs 4 points, the base ship would have to be worth at least 25 points at PS1 to hit the break-even point. The card is still not great, and I generally wouldn't recommend it in a squad, but it is no longer completely useless on agility 1+ ships like it was before.
Was just looking for this thread.
My opinion on this is that it doesn't feel particularly relevant. There are probably better ways of increasing the damage potential. As it is though, its a functional fix I agree with.
--
I tried my defender lists multiple times in some random playtests. I'm not the greatest player and there's a lot of variables that aren't being controlled for, but still... my conclusive feeling is that those darn defenders are overcosted. I would gladly like to see a -1 cost for the named, and -2 for the generics, and an EPT for the Onyx.
The defenders aren't really much of a match for the Falcon as people would suggest.
It would be nice to be able to squeeze an academy or something in there at times but at least with one more point it makes it easier to squeeze in a critical upgrade you might feel like you need.
Was just looking for this thread.
Good point, I just added future-proof instructions for finding this thread later:
Finding this thread later
I added a House Rule for Expose. Feedback is welcome!
House Rule:
- Card text reads: Action: Until the end of the round, increase your primary weapon value by 1 and decrease your agility value by 1.
Now Expose is useful, without being broken on ships with 0 agility like the VT-49.
- Card text now reads: Action: Until the end of the round, increase your primary weapon value by 1 and decrease your agility value by 1, to a minimum of 0. If this reduced your agility, you may perform a free action.
Edited by MajorJuggler
Was just looking for this thread.
Good point, I just added future-proof instructions for finding this thread later:
Finding this thread later
- On the main forum, click "Most Viewed".
- Click on "2014 Regionals Results" (#2 most viewed).
- Click on the Index of useful links] in my signature on the first post.
- Scroll down to the bottom, and under Custom Scenarios and House Rules, click House Rules: technical balance fixes for casual play.
I added a House Rule for Expose. Feedback is welcome!
House Rule:
- Card text reads: Action: Until the end of the round, increase your primary weapon value by 1 and decrease your agility value by 1.
Now Expose is useful, without being broken on ships with 0 agility like the VT-49.
- Card text now reads: Action: Until the end of the round, increase your primary weapon value by 1 and decrease your agility value by 1, to a minimum of 0. If this reduced your agility, you may perform a free action.
Vessery also can't predict against Falcons or Phantoms very well.
The build I was using was trying its best to be both economical and maneuverable:
Vessery's jousting value is in the range of 90% even when he gets a target lock. OK but not great. It is certainly not as horrible as the ~78% of the generics at 30 points. Of course he gets less use out of the white K since he can get blocked. Certainly if the generics were costed 2 points less and the named 1 point less we would not have thought anything of it.
Let's wait for Worlds and see how they do.
Do you have any predictions for Worlds?
They say a good theory is one that can predict things that are proved or discovered later ^^
Since this topic is up again, let me share my latest thoughts:
New alternative card text for Fel's Wrath:
"When the number of damage cards assigned to you equals or exceeds your hull value, immidiatly execute a [speed 1 left bank] or [speed 1 right bank] manouver, each ship you are touching is dealt 1 facup damage card."
Its a bit long, yes. Basically this would be a special one-time Oicunn-move. the range is not far, but a hit can be devastating. Beware, you can hit friendly ships as well.
New card text for Darth Vader (Tie Advanced):
"During combat phase you may attack twice."
I was never satisfied with Vaders ability. In an Interceptor, Vader would shine. In the Advanced its more likely that you bump and lose your 2 actions, leaving Vader virtually with no ability.
Same thing with k-turning. Vader hates to k-turn. Bumping and k-turning makes the force leaving him for this round.
To let attack him twice in the combat phase fits the dark lord far better, without losing his ability through bumping or k-turning.
OR:
"During your "Perform Action" step, you may perform 2 actions, even if you execute a maneuver that causes you to overlap another ship"
Thus prevents to lose his actions, making him not only a flanker but an aggressive frontal attacker, even without upgrades, and a trustworthy Squad Leader.
I like that Vader fix.
Though its easier to give him a point reduction.
And I liked the systems slot before they made accuracy corrector. -3 cost you could then slap on advanced sensors to vader and never have a problem again.
To me the change to the PS5 TIES is too much, they aren't supposed to work as well as their ps 6 counter parts and gain modified EPTs for only a single point above the BSP.
Both BS and DC gain better EPTS for 2 points more than the BSP and better EPTs than their ps 5 brethren. While I like the ideas behind them I don't agree with the changes.
I also have to disagree with the interceptors.
Alpha Squadron Pilot
Avenger Squadron Pilot
Saber Squadron Pilot
"Fel's Wrath"
Remove the free focus, it's too much for a death shot @ 22 points
"Fel's Wrath" FAQ:
Lieutenant Lorrir
Keep points at 22 and add "Then receive 1 stress token" So Yorr can nab it, or keep at 23 and have no stress added to the ability.
Kir Kanos
Reduce both PS and Cost (maybe around ps 3 or 4) keep EPT off but retain pilot ability
Tetran Cowell
I feel tetran is fine at 25 points you get a ps9 interceptor.
I don't agree with the price drops on the lower PS interceptors either, you have to think about what an interceptor can do as opposed to an x-wing. The boost/ barrell roll adds so much to what the interceptors can do. Guess correctly and your ship is outside an arc or forces a collision. To me you pay for the skill that they can bring to the table but you have to know how to use it. Hard to calculate math-wise as this varies player to player.