As currently written, the Talent Force Assault in the Niman Disciple tree allows the spending of three advantge or a triumph for a free use of move object.

I would like to see this changed to a free use of any force power the Niman Disciple knows, to reduce the Niman's tight focus. A free use of Battlemind, for instance, would be useful to pass off advantages, or Exar Kun could use this ability to get a free use of Unleash on a missed saber swing. (for a lightsider, this change alone would make the Protect tree far more useful)

As an addendum, this change would go well with swapping Niman and Sorensu's "Saber stats", making Niman a studied and flexible battle caster while reducing it's willpower focus, and improving Sorensu's ability to outlast its foes.

All right, you got me. The only issue I see is the Advantages; 3 Advantages and you get an attack with Unleash? That sounds too easy to me. I'd say that 3 Advantages gets Move, with an upgraded Talent allowing a Triumph to do any Force Power. Bang! Happy days.

Of course, then you need to bump off another Talent... Alright, who's first to step up to the chopping block?

Edit: Well, I looked, and nothing seems too appealing to lop off. Darn. I still feel that activating any other Force Power should be another Talent and a Triumph, I just don't know what to move...

It's a long shot, but what about replace the Reflect above Force Assault with Force Assault, and put Improved Force Assault in Force Assault's old place? Writeup:

Force Assault: 3 Advantages on a Missed Lightsaber check allow you to use Force Move as a Maneuver.

Improved Force Assault: Can use Force Assault on a succesfull hit; can also spend a Triumph to use any Force Power as a Maneuver on a missed Lightsaber attack.

What do you think Rakaydos? You seem to be the expert on Niman Disciples (and on breaking them down into itty bitty pieces).

I think the idea has merit, but it may be doing too much.

Maybe with Force Assault, instead of it allowing the direct use of a Force power. be it Move or anything else, on a failed Lightsaber attack, you instead get the option to spend that Triumph or 3 Advantage to instead push an engaged adversary one range band away from you, dealing damage equal to Willpower, which itself bypasses soak.

It would still keep to the general feel of "using the Force in combat to affect an enemy" but isn't as powerful an effect as Move can potentially be (a single Strength Upgrade and a few Magnitude Upgrades means your missed ligthsaber attack could let you take out several minions in one shot with Force Rating 2, which the spec does allow you to obtain).

I was actually aiming to shift Niman Disciple away from the telekinetic focus it developed in the D20 SAGA days.

Considering this is a talent that's as hard to get as Master Pilot (spending strain and a maneuver for an extra action in vehical combat), an extra action's worth of stuff isnt outside the realm of possibility.

Combined with a swap in saber stats with Sorensu, Nimian would be less pidgeonhole'd into high Will/high discipline rock throwing- while discipline is still a poweful skill for the Force, they no longer double dip with their saber stat, and there are plenty of other force options for nimian disciples who choose to let willpower fall to the wayside and focus on force rating instead.

Well in that case, just deep-six Force Assault entirely and replace it with some different effect that doesn't use the Force at all if you're so strongly opposed to Niman Disciple being so heavy on Force usage.

Well in that case, just deep-six Force Assault entirely and replace it with some different effect that doesn't use the Force at all if you're so strongly opposed to Niman Disciple being so heavy on Force usage.

What did I say to give you THAT impression?

Theres more to the force than throwing rocks at people. That's exactly why I suggested what I did, opening the power to Battle Meditation, Bind, Seek, Heal/Harm, protect/Unleash, Misdirect or even Influence in combat.

Protect/unleash, Move, and Influence use Discipline, but Battle Meditation uses Leadership, Seek uses vigilance, heal uses Medicine, and Bind and Misdirect dont use any skills at all.

The impression was taken from your reply of "well I want to move away from how Saga Edition did it," and what they did was to make Niman based more upon using the Force, specifically telekinesis, when using a lightsaber. As well as the remark to justify a change to Niman Technique to use Intellect, which moves it away from being about using the Force in combat, since Willpower is the primary Characteristic when it comes to offensively using the Force in combat.

Of the various power options, subsituting Move for any other power still results in the same issue, that the character needs to have a Force power in order use this talent, which again was one of the things you appeared to take issue with in that it currently requires a specific Force power in order to be of any use to a character. Changing it to any Force power is at best a band-aid, since it still leaves the character, and even then it can become a question of "which Force powers would be suitable for a follow-thru on a failed lightsaber attack?" For the design team, the answer was Move.

Remember that while it's also called the "Diplomat's Form," Niman is at its heart a combat -based fighting style, opting for what the developers of said Form viewed as a "balanced" approach to lightsaber combat while not being quite as focused on lightsaber techniques as the five prior Forms.

I like Dono's suggestion, as it's representative of a number of force elements.

As a narrative game, that movement and damage could be a crush, it could be a move, it could be an over the top lightsaber swing charged with sith lightning (a la StarKiller)...

The point is that it would be something that adds a force-y feeling, but is narratively open to description based on a character's design.

I think the idea needs some extra love, but it seems better to me than limiting the power to only move, or letting any power be used (I'm having flash thoughts of things like influence and dealing so much strain you wonder why you even attacked in the first place).

Maybe with Force Assault, instead of it allowing the direct use of a Force power. be it Move or anything else, on a failed Lightsaber attack, you instead get the option to spend that Triumph or 3 Advantage to instead push an engaged adversary one range band away from you, dealing damage equal to Willpower, which itself bypasses soak.

It would still keep to the general feel of "using the Force in combat to affect an enemy" but isn't as powerful an effect as Move can potentially be (a single Strength Upgrade and a few Magnitude Upgrades means your missed ligthsaber attack could let you take out several minions in one shot with Force Rating 2, which the spec does allow you to obtain).

That would definely solve it for the ones claiming desperately for a Force Push

Yeah, what I suggested could use some fine-tuning, but as a core idea that's in keeping with what Force Assault is currently, it's a decent enough starting point.

It probably doesn't need to be fully kitted out as a weapon, since it effectively becomes a weapon quality that triggers on a miss (much as Blast has the option of doing). Dunno if it should be restricted to a single activation per attack roll, though my gut feeling is to say that you only get to use it once per attack roll no matter how many Triumph or Advantage you generate.

Even if we go with your form, Dono, I'd still want to shift the talent's damage to Inteligence, to match a change of Saber characteric and Draw closer to Inteligence. Nimian's focus on the force is reflected in it's talents and it's force rating boost- it doesnt need to be a single stat monster with more flexibility than a droid marauder could dream of.

I still think what you suggest is too weak for a 25 XP talent, though. As I said, compare it to Master Pilot in the Smuggler or Ace "Pilot" trees- this talent should be emblematic of using the force in combat, not a tactical option you might or might not use.

Revising my original suggestion, how about, "When you miss with a lightsaber attack, you may spend 2 strain to use a force power as a maneuver"?

Even if we go with your form, Dono, I'd still want to shift the talent's damage to Inteligence, to match a change of Saber characteric and Draw closer to Inteligence. Nimian's focus on the force is reflected in it's talents and it's force rating boost- it doesnt need to be a single stat monster with more flexibility than a droid marauder could dream of.

I still think what you suggest is too weak for a 25 XP talent, though. As I said, compare it to Master Pilot in the Smuggler or Ace "Pilot" trees- this talent should be emblematic of using the force in combat, not a tactical option you might or might not use.

Revising my original suggestion, how about, "When you miss with a lightsaber attack, you may spend 2 strain to use a force power as a maneuver"?

Except there's already a talent who's whole reason to exist is to allow you to use a Force power as a Manuever. It's called "The Force is My Ally," costs 2 strain to activate, can only be used once per session, and is found in the Sage specialization right across from Niman Disciple. So your change makes that talent pretty much worthless, since your notion you either get a successful lightsaber attack for pretty decent damage (gotta love that Breach 1!) or you get to trigger a Force power on that same turn.

FFG obviously thought being able to use a Force power as a maneuver was pretty big deal, thus why it's a 25 XP talent and only usable once per session.

The problem with using Master Pilot as a comparison is that it's limited to a very specific circumstance, namely piloting a starship, which is probably not something that's going to come up in every single encounter the way that using a Force power of one's choice would. The various other Master talents tend to require spending 2 strain to reduce the difficulty of a specific skill check. PCs are far more likely to be in combat scenarioes where they are using a lightsaber than they are to be piloting a starship and in dire need of taking that second Action as a Maneuver on a given turn.

The problem with using Master Pilot as a comparison is that it's limited to a very specific circumstance, namely piloting a starship, which is probably not something that's going to come up in every single encounter the way that using a Force power of one's choice would. The various other Master talents tend to require spending 2 strain to reduce the difficulty of a specific skill check. PCs are far more likely to be in combat scenarioes where they are using a lightsaber than they are to be piloting a starship and in dire need of taking that second Action as a Maneuver on a given turn.

But doesnt the current Force Assault run into the same problem? Being able to "miss with a crit" to use move object is apparently within playability for their team- what is wrong with my original version, that lets you "Miss with a crit" to do any force power, Discipline based or otherwise?

But doesnt the current Force Assault run into the same problem? Being able to "miss with a crit" to use move object is apparently within playability for their team- what is wrong with my original version, that lets you "Miss with a crit" to do any force power, Discipline based or otherwise?

Nope, because Force Assault is limited to a specific power, and requires spending a Triumph or 3 Advantage to get that effect. So while it's usable more often, it's far more limited in scope.

But doesnt the current Force Assault run into the same problem? Being able to "miss with a crit" to use move object is apparently within playability for their team- what is wrong with my original version, that lets you "Miss with a crit" to do any force power, Discipline based or otherwise?

Nope, because Force Assault is limited to a specific power, and requires spending a Triumph or 3 Advantage to get that effect. So while it's usable more often, it's far more limited in scope.

Which is why I specified my original version, in the OP, which is exactly the same except it isnt limitied to Move.

But doesnt the current Force Assault run into the same problem? Being able to "miss with a crit" to use move object is apparently within playability for their team- what is wrong with my original version, that lets you "Miss with a crit" to do any force power, Discipline based or otherwise?

Nope, because Force Assault is limited to a specific power, and requires spending a Triumph or 3 Advantage to get that effect. So while it's usable more often, it's far more limited in scope.

Which is why I specified my original version, in the OP, which is exactly the same except it isnt limitied to Move.

And is still too broad an ability, since at higher levels generating 3 Advantage on a failed attack is incredibly easy, again making your revision far superior to Force is My Ally, only with even less of a cost.

For the sake of being balanced and not becoming a god-tier talent, Force Assault either needs to be limited to a single Force power, or have an effect that doesn't involve any Force powers.

Your proposed revisions make the talent less "hey, this would be neat to take" and more "why the hell wouldn't I take this talent?!" If the latter statement becomes a truism, then said talent is far too powerful in comparison to other talents in the game.

Why is "I can throw a starfighter at you on a miss" allowed by the balance team, but "I can Force choke/Lighning on a miss" horribly unbalanced? Limiting it to a single power doesnt do that much to limit it when the one power is so potentially powerful.

As for your suggestion, I do like it, but I feel it should be lower and easier to reach in the tree, or perhaps in a different tree that fits the movie usages better.

rakaydos, I don't have a good answer to that question. But What I can say is move is a conditional power, in that the GM has a lot of control over how strong an attack can be levied. The GM can set up scenes where no silhouette 2 objects are near, so you're limitted with sil 1 and 0, which are relatively low damage attacks.

Frankly I think your question points to the talent being too strong overall, not just with any power, and maybe that is something to consider.

I'm sorry but "And I toss my enemy out to Long Range straight up" is not really a limit.

Hint: Fall from Long Range; Incapacitated, Critical Injury at +50, 30 Strain. Not much will survive that.

Ah. well, that's handy if you're outside. but if there is a roof on the building/cave/location, that's not really an issue.

And I never said it was a good answer.

Ah. well, that's handy if you're outside. but if there is a roof on the building/cave/location, that's not really an issue.

Yes, I'm that twisty of a Player.

And I never said it was a good answer.

And then every time you upgrade Magnitude you can grease smear another enemy (or entire Minion group) at the same time.

I have no idea how I'll keep this nuke out of my players hands. Likely I'll just not mention it's scary, scary potential, never use it on them, and hope neither of them figure it out on their own.

3 pips. Unless their jawas. In which case, UTINNI!!!!!!!!!!!!

1 base, 1silhuette, 1range.

3 pips. Unless their jawas. In which case, UTINNI!!!!!!!!!!!!

1 base, 1silhuette, 1range.

I do keep saying Move is really there to Push those Jawa panhandlers off your landspeeder's windshield...