Mentioned this in passing in the S&V Scyk cost thread, and MajorJuggler said to start a new thread so why not?

The HWK is the one ship that I haven't spent much time MathWinging, because it needs a turret to be useful

I agree for the most part, but I think between the Z-95 and Rebel Aces refit, you might find you can fit a HWK in without a turret.

Jan + Saboteur, and 6 Bandits. Jan can pump up the Bandits, and saboteur on damage done.

Kyle + Jan, Squad Leader and 5 Prototypes w/Refit. Kyle hands out focus which Jan can convert to Evades.

Maybe not great lists, but both would let you use the HWK effectively without including a turret. The HWK isn't much of a threat so it would be low on the kill list, but even if it does die it doesn't hurt the lists extensively. Again maybe not something I'd take to Worlds, but could be fun to play.

Will also be interesting to see what we can do with the S&V HWK, without a turret.

Actually, it might be high on the kill list, since it's a support ship. People will realize that it is buffing the other ships and will quickly try and take it out.

yeah i think if i was facing it i'd think 'why had he not taken a turret' and realise it had a synchronising part in your plan, my plan would adapt to remove that as fast as possible

my plan would adapt to remove that as fast as possible

True, but without it you still have 6 Bandits or 5 A-Wings. It's not like if you lose the HWK your whole list falls apart, just becomes less effective.

If there was some sort of rebel equivalent to darth vader or mara jade I think you'd see some people run naked rebel operatives with one crew member for fun to run ahead of your squad as a distraction.

my plan would adapt to remove that as fast as possible

True, but without it you still have 6 Bandits or 5 A-Wings. It's not like if you lose the HWK your whole list falls apart, just becomes less effective.

yup, note im not saying i'd totally disregard my battle plan and go 'do or die' for the hwk... just that i'd treat it as a higher priority target if it was *trying* to be unassuming

In the case of Jan consider that taking her out is just as important, if not more so, than taking out any individual Z-95. She is also likely to be contributing 2 attack dice each turn and while her single die is often ignorable turning any other 2 die attack into a 3 die attack is pretty important and enough to paint a big bull's eye on her.

The build of Kyle w/ Jan may be an even bigger "threat" as it totally messes with your damage potential and if you're using it to make already hard to hit A-Wings even tougher to hurt that becomes a prime 25 point target.

A ship loses nothing by attacking, and the HWK almost lacks a primary, its attack is so bad. Adding a turret makes it able to shoot, it's pretty much arming your HWK. That's why they always have turrets: five points is so easily worth another attack.

I think the point is being lost here...

The point wasn't to just discuss my off the cuff ideas for a list using a HWK without a turret, but to also see any other ideas that might make one work.

Running jan without upgrades is the only hwk I'd run without a turret. If also probably pair Biggs to make a 4 attack xwing until he does then buff other ships until jan dies.

Ships with turret slots seem to be designed with the assumption of turret use in mind: with near useless primaries. I'd go as far as to say the only reason it has its one die is so it isn't completely helpless if it's the last ship and had a Munitions Failure.

A HWK without a turret is like Fel without an EPT: the loss of effectiveness isn't worth the saved points.

If you're allready paying 16-25 pts for a ship, it makes sense to invest the extra 5 points to upgrade it's weapon from "Isn't going to do anything ever, exept against that one unlucky VT-49" to "The bane of every arc dodger in the game".

Why the HWK doesn't have 2 attack die is beyond me, but since it doesn't the idea of flying one without a turret is inherently flawed.

HWK with C3P0 and the Moldy Crow title could be interesting. The problem is, you have to load so much stuff on it to become useful, the points it costs becomes exorbitant.

I've only fired the HWK's primary weapon 3 times and 2 times it got a kill. Maybe there's something magical to this.

The first time was a range 3 shot through an asteroid at Luke Skywalker who had 1 health left. I got my 1 hit and he rolled 4 blanks. It was an amazing victory, and the nail in the coffin of a very very unlucky game for my opponent.

HWKs without turrets are a stupid idea, no matter what else you can fit into your list. Whatever buff you're getting from the HWK is almost certainly less than the buff provided by replacing the useless HWK with more ships with guns. It's only worth spending points on a buff ship if it can also contribute a meaningful attack, which means always putting a turret on your HWK.

HWK with C3P0 and the Moldy Crow title could be interesting. The problem is, you have to load so much stuff on it to become useful, the points it costs becomes exorbitant.

Uh... Why? I don't see how those cards interact, at all.

I've only fired the HWK's primary weapon 3 times and 2 times it got a kill. Maybe there's something magical to this.

The first time was a range 3 shot through an asteroid at Luke Skywalker who had 1 health left. I got my 1 hit and he rolled 4 blanks. It was an amazing victory, and the nail in the coffin of a very very unlucky game for my opponent.

And the reason you were firing the primary weapon was what? Killing Luke at R3 through an asteroid is just plain luck I suspect something else had a big part of bringing Luke down to that point before hand.

Now to be honest if you use the HWK very often I'd almost be shocked if one has only fired the primary weapon a few times. Maybe you've always get better shots because you have a turret but if the only shot you have is a R3 with the primary then you take it because you have nothing to lose and could get lucky. The other cases would be after you've lost the turret for some reason and the once in a blue moon R1 shot where 2 dice could possibly kill while a turret is unlikely to.

Without a turret the HWKs are little more than unspecified upgrades but for the price you'll almost always be better off buying actual upgrades.

I have used Roark with just a tactician, then the damage doesn't matter a whole lot. I wouldn't rave about it. 18 points for an operative with tactician, could be useful but it wouldn't be my first choice.

I have used Roark with just a tactician, then the damage doesn't matter a whole lot. I wouldn't rave about it. 18 points for an operative with tactician, could be useful but it wouldn't be my first choice.

For two points more you can get a way more efficient stress throwing. Gold sqd. + R3-A2

If any of the named HWKs had a 2 Primary, I'd use them without turrets in a heartbeat. At 19-25 pts, worth it. It's getting them into the 30ish range that prices a support ship out of the market.

I've only fired the HWK's primary weapon 3 times and 2 times it got a kill. Maybe there's something magical to this.

The first time was a range 3 shot through an asteroid at Luke Skywalker who had 1 health left. I got my 1 hit and he rolled 4 blanks. It was an amazing victory, and the nail in the coffin of a very very unlucky game for my opponent.

And the reason you were firing the primary weapon was what? Killing Luke at R3 through an asteroid is just plain luck I suspect something else had a big part of bringing Luke down to that point before hand.

Undeniably lucky. I would assume that it was a case of Luke being at range 3 so therefore out of the blaster turret or ion turrets 'range 1-2' and it was a case of 'i may as well roll that one dice'.

In my old uni gaming group my friend Adam was legendary for taking a desperation shot with a las pistol at an eldar war walker and killing it... the string of rolls needed to get this was ridiculous. 4+ to hit, then a 1 in 6 chance of getting through the power field, then a 1 in 6 chance of hitting the pilot, 50 per cent chance to wound him(4+) and lastly the pilot failed his save of 5 or 6 on a d6...

We were all gobsmacked when it happened and he only took that shot as a joke from a crewman as it was the only weapon he had left to fire.

Cant say i've *ever* used the HWKs primary

Perhaps a useful upgrade card in future would be one that beefed up the primary (lets say adding 1 red dice) with a chance every time you used it to overheat (perhaps if you roll a focus) and then you cant fire for a turn to 'cool down'?

I've only fired the HWK's primary weapon 3 times and 2 times it got a kill. Maybe there's something magical to this.

The first time was a range 3 shot through an asteroid at Luke Skywalker who had 1 health left. I got my 1 hit and he rolled 4 blanks. It was an amazing victory, and the nail in the coffin of a very very unlucky game for my opponent.

And the reason you were firing the primary weapon was what? Killing Luke at R3 through an asteroid is just plain luck I suspect something else had a big part of bringing Luke down to that point before hand.

Now to be honest if you use the HWK very often I'd almost be shocked if one has only fired the primary weapon a few times. Maybe you've always get better shots because you have a turret but if the only shot you have is a R3 with the primary then you take it because you have nothing to lose and could get lucky. The other cases would be after you've lost the turret for some reason and the once in a blue moon R1 shot where 2 dice could possibly kill while a turret is unlikely to.

Without a turret the HWKs are little more than unspecified upgrades but for the price you'll almost always be better off buying actual upgrades.

Luke was down to 1 hull point because Ibtisam and Wedge just lit him up pretty good. My HWK was way out of position because he was dealing with another ship, basically walked a decked out Wedge off the board with ion. We were about to go back to dials and my opponent told me the HWK had a shot with its primary. I laughed and said "sure, why not..." The game was pretty much over anyways, it was just hilarious that a 1 die vs 4 dice+Luke shot actually worked.

I did fly the HWK frequently, but managed most of the time to be at range 4 or inside range 2. Most of the time if range 3 happened, I didn't have a shot because I typically sweep around instead of jousting.

I agree that without a turret it is not worth it. I'm excited to see what some of the new turrets are. I can't bring myself to use the blaster turret, I just love ions too much.

Perhaps a useful upgrade card in future would be one that beefed up the primary (lets say adding 1 red dice) with a chance every time you used it to overheat (perhaps if you roll a focus) and then you cant fire for a turn to 'cool down'?

I'm hoping one of the new S&V turrets beefs up your primary, would be of great use for both the Y and the HWK. The Y would accually become a decent heavy fighter and the HWK would become a nice low-priority-to-kill support ship.

I have a feeling that the autoblaster turret is going to be range 1 only and frankly I don't think that'll get a lot of use in this meta.

For 18 points you could use Rebel Operative + Tactician for a stress bot. 2 points cheaper than a Gold Squad stress bot with R3-A2 and you don't have to take a stress yourself. But obviously you get the range limitations and an even more worthless attack.