I think MajorJuggler's work will be a little more useful in determining the actual balance of the game. People aren't rational, especially when it comes to losses. Take a look at the pvp forums of any MMORPG for proof.

I think this survey is more about peoples opinions/impressions around the game rather than the actual state of the meta. If you note, there is a bunch of questions around when you started playing, what type of player you consider yourself and how well you do in tourneys. These are not important for determining how to fix the game , but are important if you want to gather demographic data to compare/group people for analysis of the other opinions.

If the OP was writing a thesis, I suspect it would be titled something like "X-Wing: Styles of play, entry points into the game, skill level and their effects of their view of the Wave IV metagame."

Correct, Jobu, I'm trying to see how different players view the issue than trying to find consensus on how to 'fix' the issue.

I don't have an issue with the meta. Tournaments I have been to have almost always had YT1300 builds of some description ever since they were released. These things are cyclical and at some point the meta will change again with new releases or creative squad building/flying.

I don't have a problem with there being counters to different squad types in the game, it makes it fun, what I DON'T like are certain squad types that win the majority of the time when playing their non-counters, because then everyone wants to play them knowing that with most matchups they will probably win, and then hope for the best in the matchups that are not ideal. As opposed to a "normal/average" squad that maybe does really good against some lists, so so against some others, and poorly against some others, so you never know how you might fare.

I think we need another one for FALCON ;-)

Lower the Phantom ridiculous firepower. Problem solved. Game is fun again.

Lower the Phantom ridiculous firepower. Problem solved. Game is fun again.

wrong, wrong and wrong. phantom is glass cannon and that are 4hp that COST and can be countered so many ways. Do You want phantom, cost more than for example b-wing, have the same fire power but twice less hull? play super Han with PS11 and for example 3 Z-95 against phantom and say again what ships is ridiculous.

The biggest issue I see is C3PO.

The HSF list went from competative to dominant overnight, and while a lot of people like to suggest the threat of the Phantom was the cause of the shift in the meta, I'm just not buying it.

C3PO stacks perfectly with an Ag1 ship, giving you a guaranteed extra evade. It turns Han into a tank which, when combined with his offensive abilities, completely unbalances the game.

The point of the named YT pilots was Chewie the tank, Lando for support, and Han the damage merchant. But with the simple addition of C3PO, Han can tank and shoot, making all other combos completely redundant.

The Phantom is a great ship. It's fun to fly (hard to fly well), and can dish it out. But it is not unbalancing.

I've beaten Phantom lists with no special preparation simply by understanding what it can do, how to trap it in a corner, denying it de-cloaking opportunities and then hitting it hard.

There is no such easy counter to the new Fat Han.

You either tailor specifically (ie bring a swarm), or you hope their dice are off (highly unlikely with Han + Luke/gunner).

I've seen some bounty hunter/shuttle lists with HLC spam do pretty well, but the meta certainly doesn't seem to support the idea that these are a widely competitive build.

My suggestion:

C3PO comes with an epic ship, so house rule that it's only legal for epic play.

The Fat Han slims down a little and the rest of the meta opens back up.

Hmm... give it time, phantoms are fine to be honest. Its just that the standard which was held for a long time by the classic swarm and 2X2B. It has changed, swarms are just more divers in make-up. Rebels started to include Ion again and took some turrets with them. People who play in tournament take a look at the fear on the internet and build a counter to that (or read articles about a winning list/counter to a winning list). But any neatly set together fleet and with enough practice can go a long long way.

People have just figured out how good lamda's can maneuver. They'll figure out how to kill a phantom (or when playing time at a tournament just kill everything else). And even if that fails the 2 big new ships will put them into place. Fat/han has an advantage versus expensive small ships anything else in some numbers eat through a falcon.

because it forced a change to my personal playing style.

Was that, perchance, tight formations? Because that's what FFG wanted to kill.

Thanks for posting this, OP.

The biggest issue I see is C3PO....

Again, so much hurt over ONE evade per turn. The solution is as simple as always, no ban, nerf or restrictions required.

Yt is a bigger problem then the phantom.

Er, no - the prevalence of YT 's is a symptom of the problem Phantoms posed - nothing more, nothing less.

Nerf/remove/ban turrets? Fine - nerf/remove/ban the boost card and cloaking as well. Job done.

Or everyone could just, y'know, quit crying and attempting to pick fault and instead play this fun and balanced game with all the quirks, builds and options the designers intended.

Lower the Phantom ridiculous firepower. Problem solved. Game is fun again.

wrong, wrong and wrong. phantom is glass cannon and that are 4hp that COST and can be countered so many ways. Do You want phantom, cost more than for example b-wing, have the same fire power but twice less hull? play super Han with PS11 and for example 3 Z-95 against phantom and say again what ships is ridiculous.

Done. Can't wait to see the results.

The biggest issue I see is C3PO....

Again, so much hurt over ONE evade per turn.

The solution is as simple as always, no nerf or restrictions required.

I would say it is so much hurt over TWO evades per turn.

The biggest issue I see is C3PO....

Again, so much hurt over ONE evade per turn.

The solution is as simple as always, no nerf or restrictions required.

I would say it is so much hurt over TWO evades per turn.

not to mention a possible PS9 boost from engine upgrade

The biggest issue I see is C3PO.

The HSF list went from competative to dominant overnight, and while a lot of people like to suggest the threat of the Phantom was the cause of the shift in the meta, I'm just not buying it.

Of course that's your prerogative.

C3PO stacks perfectly with an Ag1 ship, giving you a guaranteed extra evade. It turns Han into a tank which, when combined with his offensive abilities, completely unbalances the game.

Threepio does not provide a "guaranteed extra evade". As he's typically used, he has no effect 37.5% of the time.

The point of the named YT pilots was Chewie the tank, Lando for support, and Han the damage merchant. But with the simple addition of C3PO, Han can tank and shoot, making all other combos completely redundant.

One of the more common HSF builds when Wave 2 first came out was Han + Luke + Chewie + Millennium Falcon. You effectively had 15 hit points with an evade every turn, and because you had Han's rerolls and Luke's pseudo-focus if needed, taking a defensive action every time didn't hurt you.

Threepio is not the problem, and if he didn't exist Fat Falcons would still be a thing at tournaments.

The Phantom is a great ship. It's fun to fly (hard to fly well), and can dish it out. But it is not unbalancing.

I've beaten Phantom lists with no special preparation simply by understanding what it can do, how to trap it in a corner, denying it de-cloaking opportunities and then hitting it hard.

There is no such easy counter to the new Fat Han.

You either tailor specifically (ie bring a swarm), or you hope their dice are off (highly unlikely with Han + Luke/gunner).

I've seen some bounty hunter/shuttle lists with HLC spam do pretty well, but the meta certainly doesn't seem to support the idea that these are a widely competitive build.

If I recall correctly, Falcons are performing in Top 8, Top 4, etc. at just about their overall rate of appearance. There are lots of other competitive builds--in fact there's a whole thread right now on killing Fat Falcons, and basically people have done it (and don't it reliably) with a huge range of lists.

My suggestion:

C3PO comes with an epic ship, so house rule that it's only legal for epic play.

The Fat Han slims down a little and the rest of the meta opens back up.

Half of the Falcon lists that made it to Top 8 in major tournaments in Wave 4 didn't even have Threepio. In those that didn't already feature Chewie as a pilot, you could replace Threepio with the Chewie crew upgrade and see very little difference in their overall effectiveness. Threepio is not the problem--even granting that there IS a problem beyond positive feedback in the metagame.

If there isn't an issue why are devs making a card specifically to help with turrets?

If there isn't an issue why are we having massive threads about it every week?

Why are we not seeing alot more whine threads about how phantoms have ruined the local meta?

If there isn't an issue why are devs making a card specifically to help with turrets?

If there isn't an issue why are we having massive threads about it every week?

Because there's no new public info on Wave 5 yet, most of the major tournaments are over, and lately the mods have been slapping down the worst of the troll threads.

Basically, people are bored.

Why are we not seeing alot more whine threads about how phantoms have ruined the local meta?

Needed other badly a few times.

I'll be interested in results but your questioning omitted a lot of answers.

I would say it is so much hurt over TWO evades per turn.

Then you're talking about two different upgrade cards, aren't you? The action-using Millennium Falcon title and the agility gambling C3PO. Two evades per turn, and all the combo costs is 4 squad points, a crew slot and an action on an already very expensive (42 point plus) ship.

God forbid you do something constructive about it like stress it, block it, ion it, or otherwise deny it actions, (or just, y'know focus fire on it until it's dead). No, it's MUCH easier to bleat and whine loudly about how so totally OP it is, isn't it?

I don't think anyone is bleating.

They're pointing out that Falcons are dominating the global rankings in competative play (an undeniable fact) and suggesting that this may be because of an intrinsic lack of balance.

The only bleaters I can see are those defending the Falcon on the basis of absolutely nothing.

Their only recourse appears to be to demean the playing skills of those who are bringing it up, or cry "troll" and dismiss the subject out of hand.

It's totally disingenuous, and flies in the face of all the evidence.

Good Survey. so far I have not been irked by this issue. Falcons haven't been taking over my local meta. A few phantoms, but they haven't been overpowering, either.

Believe it or not, the list i'm fearing for this week's tourney consists of 2 blue squadrons and 2 HWK's.

I don't think anyone is bleating. they're pointing out that Falcons are dominating the global rankings in competative play (an undeniable fact) and suggesting that this may be because of an intrinsic lack of balance.

An undeniable fact? People are taking the Falcon in numbers, yes - that much is true at least.

But has been pointed out time and time and time again, this is NOT due to any imbalance on the part of the Falcon or ANY of it's upgrades.

It was a knee-jerk reaction to the expected proliferation of arc-dodging options available to Imperial forces following the release of Wave 4.

Specifically the TIE Phantom, but also the Defender (which will be a mean old beast and a staple of many a list once the community as a whole catches on to it) and to a lesser extent, the TIE Interceptor.

C3PO was around during the Imdaar Alpha campaign weekends. Did we see a proliferation of Falcons at those events? No. We saw a huge mix of lists and builds. The number of Falcon lists increased following the release of Wave 4.

You want to point the finger of blame? Take a good look at the Advanced Cloaking Device. That's the upgrade card which changed the meta.

I don't think anyone is bleating.

They're pointing out that Falcons are dominating the global rankings in competative play (an undeniable fact)

Undeniable? Last I checked, global tourney stats show Falcons performing well but not winning that many tournaments. That's not domination.