What is actually gained by this change?

You keep repeating it "needs no change", but then introduce changes of your own as if they are self-evident. I don't think your changes are any simpler than the distilled version I came up with.

But simplicity aside, at the heart of it, I don't agree that the Move power, or your changes, capture the flavour of an iconic, repeated, consistent activity. At core, the Move power is overpowered and unlimited, as opposed to what we see with Push in the media. In another thread someone mentioned an NPC who would "fling the PC out to Long range". This is inconsistent with how any use of Move or Push shows up in the media, but perfectly doable with the way Move is written. Hence the problem.

I'd welcome some real criticism, I've already made some changes based on it and managed to encapsulated the change into a few lines rather than a long post. But there's no point questioning the underlying raison d'être of this thread...I see a need for Force Push to be better codified, and welcome the input of anyone else who does also, including those who think my solution sucks I'd like a good solution, and input from people who agree a solution is required (or simply want to engage in the exercise for fun).

Fair enough regarding the zahn v Anderson. I believe all were to blame for not creating new things and sticking to a dynamic of more of the same only bigger (force) or more of the same only less big (super weapons).

but the point is well made, the late 80's and early 90's saw force using characters that made starkiller look like scout (cookies to the person that get's that reference without wookiepedia).

Actually Zahn wasn't. The closest he got to a "big threat" was the Katana Fleet, but he steered clear of the "Superweapon of the Week" that plagued the books under KJA's tenure. And aside from Joruus C'boath (who was supposed to be a deranged clone of Obi-Wan intially), he didn't have an abundance of Force users either, and Joruus had more of an Emperor role than a Vader role in the story, though he kind of played second fiddle in terms of being the villain to Thrawn.

A lot of the blame for over-powered Force usage can be laid at the feet of Kevin J. Anderson...

KEVIN J. ******* ANDERSON!

Is there nothing his pox ridden pen hasn't tainted!?!?!

Removed as my critique/feedback is obviously not welcomed by the OP.

I'd like a good solution, and input from people who agree a solution is required (or simply want to engage in the exercise for fun).

But sell me on two things: Prepare and the need for White Pips.

Unless I'm wrong Prepare means it'll an Action to Prepare to use the Push and then the actual Push Action? That seems a bit longish in terms of Action economy.

Also I'm pretty sure Dark Siders should get to use Push as much as Light Siders, even if they have access to far better things (damaging Bind, Harm, and Unleash).

A lot of the blame for over-powered Force usage can be laid at the feet of Kevin J. Anderson...

KEVIN J. ******* ANDERSON!

Is there nothing his pox ridden pen hasn't tainted!?!?!

Sadly not, and oddly enough we agree on at least this point where the EU was concerned. The stuff he had a direct hand in was some of the worst EU material outside of the Vong and Karen Traviss' fangirl-fueled interpretation of the Mandalorians, who are simply better than everyone else in the Star Wars galaxy to hear her tell it, up to and including having characters all but worship the ground that Boba Fett walks on.

Personally, I hope Boba Fett stays dead in the new canon. He was a chump character that died an appropriately chump death, and only got brought back due to excessive fanboy demands that he wasn't dead.

Personally, I hope Boba Fett stays dead in the new canon. He was a chump character that died an appropriately chump death, and only got brought back due to excessive fanboy demands that he wasn't dead.

I disagree with the "chump character" bit, but he did die like a chump... so... I can't find fault with your description.

whafrog,

So your answer to my question is "not a **** thing really."

Again, I say that you're putting too much effort into something that doesn't really need it and can be handled by a GM with enough working brain cells. This is a narrative system, and unlike most d20 games (especially Pathfinder and D&D 3.5), not everything needs to be spelled out in exacting detail.

Riiight, that's why weapons don't have any damage rating, crit ratings, or qualities...because the system is "narrative" and we don't need all that. No need for Talents that specifically (and crunchily) let you do a Knockdown with Melee weapons, add Boost or remove Setback. It's all Narrative!

Spare me your arbitrary divisions. You might spend a few of your own "brain cells" and determine that the line between narrative and crunch in this system is somewhat fluid. Go ahead and draw that line wherever you like, but I'll draw my own, thanks.

Anyway, I already answered your questions early on page 1, which you decided to ignore. And you keep going on about minions and the lack of a need for Knockdown, but I already addressed that too. If you're going to bother to comment, especially with that kind of hostility, at least read what you're commenting about. If you're not going to read, but just rant about "narrative" and "Sam says", save everyone the pleasure.

But sell me on two things: Prepare and the need for White Pips.

Unless I'm wrong Prepare means it'll an Action to Prepare to use the Push and then the actual Push Action? That seems a bit longish in terms of Action economy.

Also I'm pretty sure Dark Siders should get to use Push as much as Light Siders, even if they have access to far better things (damaging Bind, Harm, and Unleash).

Good questions. Prepare requires a maneuver, not an action. It seems to me from the media they always stop or slow down before taking time to do the gesture. It's like they need a second to "gather up the Force". I might be overthinking that, but it feels more flavourful. I kind of feel like most of the Force powers should have the Prepare quality, except maybe in cases like Protect, but that's another issue (...again, don't have F&D yet, so I'm not sure how that works...)

As for White Pips, I was just following the pattern in the Move power, they only show an image of the white pip where you can spend it. Presumably you can still spend black pips if you flip a DP and spend Strain, or I guess if you're a dark sider those pips are reversed...so you could spend black pips, or flip a DP to spend white ones.

Good questions. Prepare requires a maneuver, not an action.

I think it was because our GM made setting up the Heavy Repeating Blaster take actions and I thought it had the Prepare Quality (which it doesn't).

It seems to me from the media they always stop or slow down before taking time to do the gesture. It's like they need a second to "gather up the Force". I might be overthinking that, but it feels more flavourful. I kind of feel like most of the Force powers should have the Prepare quality, except maybe in cases like Protect, but that's another issue (...again, don't have F&D yet, so I'm not sure how that works...)

Okay, I can accept that. I'd drop it as rounds are a bit longer than a few seconds, so pausing for a single breath's worth of time to focus their will is covered in "taking the action" already.

Combat time in this game is more oD&D than 3e...

As for White Pips, I was just following the pattern in the Move power, they only show an image of the white pip where you can spend it. Presumably you can still spend black pips if you flip a DP and spend Strain, or I guess if you're a dark sider those pips are reversed...so you could spend black pips, or flip a DP to spend white ones.

The "White Pips" got tossed in F&D, it's now just "Force Points" and the user decides after rolling if he's using White Pips or flipping a Destiny, taking Strain, and using The Dark Side.

I thought you might have been holding onto the distinction KotOR made between LS and DS powers...

Removed as my critique/feedback is obviously not welcomed by the OP.

It seems to me from the media they always stop or slow down before taking time to do the gesture. It's like they need a second to "gather up the Force". I might be overthinking that, but it feels more flavourful. I kind of feel like most of the Force powers should have the Prepare quality, except maybe in cases like Protect, but that's another issue (...again, don't have F&D yet, so I'm not sure how that works...)

Okay, I can accept that. I'd drop it as rounds are a bit longer than a few seconds, so pausing for a single breath's worth of time to focus their will is covered in "taking the action" already.

Combat time in this game is more oD&D than 3e...

True, I hesitated putting it in there for that reason, it probably doesn't need it.

The "White Pips" got tossed in F&D, it's now just "Force Points" and the user decides after rolling if he's using White Pips or flipping a Destiny, taking Strain, and using The Dark Side.

I thought you might have been holding onto the distinction KotOR made between LS and DS powers...

Ah, thanks for the clarification. I'll update.

whafrog,

I've read your posts on the topic, including the initial and revised concepts, and frankly find them sorely lacking when the existing mechanics already do a more than adequete job of replicating what's seen in the movies.

Yes, everyone is fully aware of that, repeatedly. You haven't added anything at all to the thread.

But since all you want to hear is people praising your idea instead of actually trying to defend it, then fine. You asked for comments, and I gave them. If you don't like what I have to say, then add me to your Ignore list.

Well, now you're lying. I asked for comments, yes, and I've modified what I came up with based on other people's feedback. You on the other hand simply like to pontificate ad nauseum, and cry if you aren't agreed with. You ignored every issue raised, like...what does Silhouette of the target have to do with damage? Seriously...can you answer this *at all*?

I have no intention of adding you to my ignore list, suggesting so is childish. You've had plenty of insightful things to say on plenty of other topics, and I look forward to more. But you seem to be singularly fixated on creating a personal issue over a simple disagreement, I really can't fathom why this is so important to you or why you have to resort to such hostility.

I kind of have to agree with Donovan. I see a lot of work being put into something that does not really provide a benefit.
Instead of going I take these 2 guys and slam them into those 2 guys spending 3 force pips and rolling a discipline and taking out 4 minions or severely injuring rivals. Narrating it as I slammed them to the ground knocking them back. I now have to spend a bunch of effort just figuring out how to use your method which is clunkier and more work.

Ah, thanks for the clarification. I'll update.

You ignored every issue raised, like...what does Silhouette of the target have to do with damage? Seriously...can you answer this *at all*?

As far as I can tell it's based on throwing a "large" object at someone, not meant as throwing someone at something else. A proper Soak Bear is going to ignore that 10 damage.

And I'm with you on the not being able to toss someone out to Extreme Range. That's ludicrous.

Further thoughts: How about having it be a part of the Basic Power? Allow neophyte Move users to Push Sil 0 objects away from themselves (like pesky Jawa and Mouse Droids)?

Also any thoughts on making the damage Stun instead of regular damage?

Ah, thanks for the clarification. I'll update.

Note: Some powers (specifically Heal/Harm comes to mind) do make the distinction between Light Side user and Dark Sider being able to access one or the other.

You ignored every issue raised, like...what does Silhouette of the target have to do with damage? Seriously...can you answer this *at all*?

I'm not Dono, but...

As far as I can tell it's based on throwing a "large" object at someone, not meant as throwing someone at something else. A proper Soak Bear is going to ignore that 10 damage.

I get that when the user is throwing an object at a target. It just doesn't make sense when the object *is* the target.

Further thoughts: How about having it be a part of the Basic Power? Allow neophyte Move users to Push Sil 0 objects away from themselves (like pesky Jawa and Mouse Droids)?

Also any thoughts on making the damage Stun instead of regular damage?

I had also considered Stun damage, would that play better do you think?

I do think it needs to be part of a Control upgrade, not just part of the basic power though.

I get that when the user is throwing an object at a target. It just doesn't make sense when the object *is* the target.

I had also considered Stun damage, would that play better do you think?

I looked at it as the PCs in the show (pretending for a moment the Protagonists are the PCs) don't seem injured by being Pushed, just shoved away/knocked down/etc. However, battle Droids are decimated by the score.

To me that looks like Stun damage.

I do think it needs to be part of a Control upgrade, not just part of the basic power though.

And apparently it's already RAW: as the Basic power, the user just needs 1 Strength upgrade to toss Sil 1 opponents from Engaged to Short Range (granted he can't damage them or anything else without generating Triumph, which is impossible since he's not rolling any Dice aside from Force Dice).

I had also considered Stun damage, would that play better do you think?

Not sure honestly.

I looked at it as the PCs in the show (pretending for a moment the Protagonists are the PCs) don't seem injured by being Pushed, just shoved away/knocked down/etc. However, battle Droids are decimated by the score.

To me that looks like Stun damage.

A compelling point. If I think about it, the only time "PCs" in TCW are injured by a push is when they're pushed *into* something.

I think I'll wait for F&D to arrive before making further changes. I want to see how it scales with Unleash first.

And apparently it's already RAW: as the Basic power, the user just needs 1 Strength upgrade to toss Sil 1 opponents from Engaged to Short Range (granted he can't damage them or anything else without generating Triumph, which is impossible since he's not rolling any Dice aside from Force Dice).

It does bother me that these things aren't contested. The first Control upgrade does at least require a Discipline check, which is halfway to a contested roll.

It does bother me that these things aren't contested. The first Control upgrade does at least require a Discipline check, which is halfway to a contested roll.

As far as being contested, there is the sidebar on page 195 that pretty much allows any Force power to become "contested" automatically, simply be the target deciding they don't want to be affected.

It's written more from the POV of the players resisting an enemy's usage of the Force, but it could be applied by NPCs as well. Of course, the issue becomes that it adds more rolling and could make using Force powers even less reliable than it already is for FR 1 PCs, since not all of them are going to make Discipline/Willpower a priority, and they could very well roll the necessary light side points to trigger Move with a Strength Upgrade (which depending on some players could be a very rare occurance) but still fail to use the power because they failed the Discipline check, resulting in a (perhaps justifiably) upset player that can't get to use an ability they paid XP for when other PCs don't have to worry about having to succeed on what amounts to two separate checks to use an ability (Force die roll to generate sufficient Force points plus opposed Discipline check).

Of course, the issue becomes that it adds more rolling and could make using Force powers even less reliable than it already is for FR 1 PCs, since not all of them are going to make Discipline/Willpower a priority, and they could very well roll the necessary light side points to trigger Move with a Strength Upgrade (which depending on some players could be a very rare occurance) but still fail to use the power because they failed the Discipline check, resulting in a (perhaps justifiably) upset player that can't get to use an ability they paid XP for when other PCs don't have to worry about having to succeed on what amounts to two separate checks to use an ability (Force die roll to generate sufficient Force points plus opposed Discipline check).

They have to make a Discipline check to hurl objects too...however, the difficulty of that is going to be less than most contested rolls, so that's a fair point. I have to get my hands on F&D...

Can someone explain me the "Prepare" rule please? It's from the book or its a homerule?

Thanks!

Can someone explain me the "Prepare" rule please? It's from the book or its a homerule?

Thanks!

It's in the Gear and Equipment chapter of all three rulebooks.

In short, it requires the user to spend a number of Maneuvers equal to the Prepare rating before they can fire the weapon.

Actually, I took it out based on feedback, no longer relevant.

Wow, whoever wrote that needs to have their head removed from whatever dark place it's nestled in...

That would be Kevin J Anderson. And yes, the line of people waiting to help remove his head is long indeed.

(Side note - what the hell does PEACH stand for?)