I just want to point out that "invested" game players have a tendency to believe that a company makes decisions on their behalf. They don't realize that they might represent 10% of the player base or less. In short, if they went away it isn't like the game wouldn't sell. So, when a dozen (hundred? Doesn't really matter, its negligible) of them huff and puff and storm away when a company executes their legal rights, they do absolutely nothing to effect change other than prevent themselves from enjoying the game.

I've been involved with a lot of game communities and I've never seen a situation where the "die hards" haven't had an overblown sense of how much the company "cares" about them and who haven't felt betrayed when, lo and behold, the bottom line is followed.

FFG is a business. They have to make decisions based upon their business interests, otherwise we don't get any FF products. While it is generally bad business policy to alienate large groups of customers, I bet you that the die hards represent a much smaller source of revenue for the game than many of you might think.

Their lawyers should go through their PR people first.

Their lawyers should go through their PR people first.

No one can make lawyers look good.

This only has to do with imagery, not text. All the squad builders have done have been to type out the words on the cards. The words are not copyrighted, unless it has gone through an expensive trademarking process.

The only things that FFG truly have control over is the actual artwork.

Jacob

I'm not an IP lawyer but I'm looking at the bottom of an E-wing blister right now and see the words "All rights reserved. No part of the product may be used without specific written permission." That means that unless your squad builder site has specific written permission they can file a C&D order if you're using any part of their game material, including text. There is no expensive trademarking process for copyrighting text, either.

This only has to do with imagery, not text. All the squad builders have done have been to type out the words on the cards. The words are not copyrighted, unless it has gone through an expensive trademarking process.

The only things that FFG truly have control over is the actual artwork.

Jacob

I'm not an IP lawyer but I'm looking at the bottom of an E-wing blister right now and see the words "All rights reserved. No part of the product may be used without specific written permission." That means that unless your squad builder site has specific written permission they can file a C&D order if you're using any part of their game material, including text. There is no expensive trademarking process for copyrighting text, either.

Yes, you can write out your own text.

Copyright law is very specific in this case. I know about it because of the another industry I work in. All rights reserved only means "what we can control, we reserve the right to control."

I too am not an IP lawyer, but I can say confidently that if you were to write out a copy of the text of a card, in any format, from typing or handwriting it on a piece of paper and scanning it, you would be fine. If, however, you were to take a picture of the card, scan it, or recreate it in some way that was very close to, or perhaps even moderately close to looking like the original, then FFG has grounds to pursue legal action.

Words themselves can't be protected except in that their original format. I don't own words, they're free use. I can combine them in any possible pattern I'd like, which may include the combination you've also put words into, or that a business has put them into.

Where it gets sticky is in terms of art. For example, a novel, or a book, or even a card for a game, is a piece of art. Now that can be protected. If FFG were to claim that the very combination of words on the cards were to be claimed as art, then they might have a case. However, proving and defending that case would involve lawyers and court and get messy, which is why C&D letters are very effective. Nobody really wants to go down that road unless they have a reason to. FFG might feel the text on the cards is art beyond the image printed, which might make this more complicated than I originally assumed.

All that said, I think that a smart squadbuilder/deckbuilder would probably be in contact with FFG and have them provide clear guidelines for using their property. FFG might provide permission for the art to be used, or the text, or neither. They have obviously given permission in some cases, and have either revoked permission or the Netrunner deck builder site didn't ask it in the first place. They should have.

Jacob

Wow, so books can just be copied and uploaded to the Internet for free?

Didn't FFG buy a Netrunner Card DB in GenCon 2013? I remember it being one of the announcements at GenCon. If so, I can see them trying to push their product over someone else's.

Now with X-wing squad builders, if they end up building their own I can possibly see them doing the same.

The even scarier reality, not FFG sending a C+D letter, but Disney sending a C+D letter.

Yeah, that really has little to do with that. I am pretty certain that NetrunnerDB's ability to allow what Jinteki.net was planning is why it got caught in the crossfire. It looks like everyone was convinced that Jinteki.net was going to get a C&D for the plans to have online play with high def images. Yes, it is unfortunate that NetrunnerDB was issued the C&D as well, but there really was no way that FFG was going to allow them to potentially to again be the source for another similar site like Jinteki.net.

It also may have been where it was the final straw. Darksbane has talked about the restrictions CardgameDB had on the card images he uploaded before it was bought. Part of it was he had to wait to upload high quality images until X amount of time after release. Vassal and OCTGN both get around it because of the images they lack.

I think NetrunnerDB may be able to work out a compromise with FFG. Considering at least 2 other Netrunner deck builders didn't get hit with a C&D, I highly doubt FFG is going after deck builders.

I think a part of it is Americas copyright and licencing system is very old and outdated, companies have to protect their properties or lose them.

For copyright and patent, you can allow anyone to use your IP and at the same time forbid anyone else for any or no reason at all. You never run the risk of losing it for lack of enforcement. But you do risk losing money obviously.

I think it's a poor allocation resources personally.

I mean, they could've used the manpower to fix the TIE Advanced.

-Cal

Right, because their legal department does game design on the side...?

I'm considering law school, and you can bet your bum that I would do game design on the side if I was on FFG's legal team, and I'm betting there's at least one gamer among their legal team who would do game design on the side.

So yes, poor allocation of resources

I went to law school in part because I was spending so much time debating 40k rules that I figured I should get paid for doing something similar!

Wow, so books can just be copied and uploaded to the Internet for free?

No. That's not what I'm saying at all. Books are a more than a piece of art. Copyright law for books is a lot more explicit and protected, so short answer: No.

My point is that words themselves aren't protected. However, art is very protected. Books are also protected, but FFG isn't producing books. The issue at hand is that Netrunner artwork is up on a site not controlled by FFG, which is a breach of their IP, which they need to pursue action on or else potentially loose their IP on Netrunner, which would be very bad.

Jacob

Wow, so books can just be copied and uploaded to the Internet for free?

No. That's not what I'm saying at all. Books are a more than a piece of art. Copyright law for books is a lot more explicit and protected, so short answer: No.

My point is that words themselves aren't protected. However, art is very protected. Books are also protected, but FFG isn't producing books. The issue at hand is that Netrunner artwork is up on a site not controlled by FFG, which is a breach of their IP, which they need to pursue action on or else potentially loose their IP on Netrunner, which would be very bad.

Jacob

Combinations of words can be protected by copyright. Changing the medium does not invalidate copyright claims most of the time.

It depends.

And that is a very, very basic view of what happened. It is likely a combination of high quality images and the ability to use said images in a program designed to allow play the game online with out any purchase required.

It depends.

The only valid answer to almost all legal questions.

I think a part of it is Americas copyright and licencing system is very old and outdated, companies have to protect their properties or lose them.

It could be the legal team acting on their own.

We don't have the full picture.

Not just America but Europe, in some countries if a native (as in one of their countries) ends up using someone else's IP it then become public domain unless a cease and desist order is put on it. There is allot of loop holes in Copyright laws and it is not just America's but international laws as well.

Where Vassle slips through is that it is designed in a way to technically require you to own the pieces you are using, and then "facilitates" playing with those pieces online. That's why Vassle doesn't have card art or show you what powers the various cards have.

Now granted, anyone can look up the various cards online and play with them in Vassle, but Fantasy Flight seems willing to not pay that much attention.

I'd bet if Vassle and Yet Another joined forces, though, there would be a problem.

I have no clue what the net runner issue is nor do I care. I certainly would not want to see any squadron builder sites shut down. The only one I use is voidstates. I see no cause to worry pertaining to his content.

I am not a IP/copyright lawyer either but I do have 20 years experience in the legal field and have worked on some IP and copyright cases, including some cease and desist.

Definitely don't throw a C&D in the trash. You wouldn't like what comes next. The C&D could and would come from FFG in this case.

I've seen some these cases dictate the color of a building be changed or even having a chain of seafood restaraunts remove all marlins from their walls. Seemingly silly things such as this were approved by the courts and enforced. A few more rare instances led to walking into a seaside resort posting a court order on the door and informing management, staff, and guests to please vacate immediately - you are hereby out of business. Another I had to attend an international company's board meeting and remove several members and have them escorted out by police, by the way give me the keys to the BMW you can call a cab.

Yeah, don't throw it away and ignore it.

Most companies wil use outside legal and not direct employed general counsel. There are some legal aspects and protections involved in that, just as my position is also kept outside that of the client. Attorney client privilege covers me also and none of my work is discoverable through subpoena. Only what I wish is submitted to evidence. This would be quite different if I worked directly for a client.