First of all in a casual game who cares. Especially when playing with a player for the first time I tend to allow new players to take back actions or perform actions retroactive as long as I haven't moved any ships or just let them take the focus or evade.

Now for tournaments I can understand the need for more precise order and don't allow for things that would be allowed in a casual game. However in this case I would call the official who would more likely side on the word "may" saying Dash doesn't have to land on the Asteroid even if his ability allowed him to and then the TO will tell you to continue to play the game as you only have so many minutes before you have to go to the next round.

Pre-measuring is not illegal as this is not 4th or 5th edition 40K and it has been clarified in official matches when it is allowed. Using the template to see if the action can be done is the procedure. Not using an ability that has the word "may" is listed in the rule book if you read it. The above in not cheating, also what advantage did Dash gain other than to avoid not being able to attack because of obstacles? That's what Dash was designed to do is use obstacles to his advantage. That's what the extra point cost is for. Cheating would be something like Barrel Roll Creep but that's another topic.

No one is confused here unless this is another one of your jokes then you are confusing everyone dear Confused Confuser.

Either way point here is casual games are for fun. Official games are on a time schedule. Arguing over rules is counterproductive to both. Call the TO who will take the word "may" heavily on his/her judgment and then play on it whatever the call was.

Who cares? People who want to be competitive even in casual games, that's who. I play with my friends a lot outside of official events, but that doesn't mean we don't prefer the rules to be both balanced and consistent. The core rulebook doesn't always provide that on its own. See my next point.

You still go back and start with the rule book. The FAQ and errata only provides clarification and minor changes. Now any change in errata takes precedence but it is not a substitute for not using the rule book. Also I did mention it would be nice to have an updated rule book however that will be at a later time when they release a new starter set.

If you start with the rulebook, the imperial player will get initiative every time. The FAQ doesn't simply add to the existing rules, it changes them in some very fundamental ways. That having been said, using templates to measure range at any time outside of an appropriate window is most definitely cheating. See page 9 of the FAQ.

You, and perhaps some other people as well, seem to think that the word 'confusion' implies that nobody can understand how to resolve the scenario. We each have our own way of interpreting it, the confusion comes into play when not everybody can agree. That's what's confusing.

And maybe not for you, but for myself, the ability to avoid having to barrel roll onto an obstacle has proven more positive then negative. It depends on the situation and different persons opinions and experiences. You just assumed that for everyone else out there that not being able to barrel roll onto obstacle at all times is a negative thing.

Here's what you said:

"...the unlikely event that FFG would give Dash an ability for being an excellent pilot at the expense of a benefit that any other pilot can make"

You didn't qualify it. You didn't say it depended. You said it's a benefit for any other pilot to not be able to land on an asteroid.

I, however, did. I said things like "nothing guarantees" and "potentially". And you say I'm declaring that it's a negative at all times.

Has the forum opened a rift into Bizarro World here? Are you trapped? We can send help!

And maybe not for you, but for myself, the ability to avoid having to barrel roll onto an obstacle has proven more positive then negative. It depends on the situation and different persons opinions and experiences. You just assumed that for everyone else out there that not being able to barrel roll onto obstacle at all times is a negative thing.

Here's what you said:

"...the unlikely event that FFG would give Dash an ability for being an excellent pilot at the expense of a benefit that any other pilot can make"

You didn't qualify it. You didn't say it depended. You said it's a benefit for any other pilot to not be able to land on an asteroid.

I, however, did. I said things like "nothing guarantees" and "potentially". And you say I'm declaring that it's a negative at all times.

Has the forum opened a rift into Bizarro World here? Are you trapped? We can send help!

So we've done a great job at keeping in the spirit of good debate, thanks guys. I know as well as you do we can see something that is completely logical to us and FFG toss a curve ball at us. This one will come down to the FAQ. I do however enjoy the open forums for everyone to toss in their thoughts.

Has the forum opened a rift into Bizarro World here? Are you trapped? We can send help!

Come on Buhallin, you're better than this.

And maybe not for you, but for myself, the ability to avoid having to barrel roll onto an obstacle has proven more positive then negative. It depends on the situation and different persons opinions and experiences. You just assumed that for everyone else out there that not being able to barrel roll onto obstacle at all times is a negative thing.

Here's what you said:

"...the unlikely event that FFG would give Dash an ability for being an excellent pilot at the expense of a benefit that any other pilot can make"

You didn't qualify it. You didn't say it depended. You said it's a benefit for any other pilot to not be able to land on an asteroid.

I, however, did. I said things like "nothing guarantees" and "potentially". And you say I'm declaring that it's a negative at all times.

Has the forum opened a rift into Bizarro World here? Are you trapped? We can send help!

So we've done a great job at keeping in the spirit of good debate, thanks guys. I know as well as you do we can see something that is completely logical to us and FFG toss a curve ball at us. This one will come down to the FAQ. I do however enjoy the open forums for everyone to toss in their thoughts.

Everyone is welcome to contribute. That does not mean everyone's contribution deserves equal weight. Shado's entire point rests on his perceived quality of Dash's ability, that ability as it relates to Dash's lore capabilities, and his assumption that FFG would follow his interpretation of both. I could as easily make an evaluation based on the astrological configuration on the day Dash's card was previewed, and it would have about as much bearing.

I'm perfectly fine with the rules discussion - I said back on the first page there's really not enough detail in the timing rules to call this one way or another for certain, and I still think that. And the rules debate is all fine and good.

But I'm not fond of someone literally inventing my words from whole cloth, especially when that invention is exactly what they were doing.

I know the products haven't officially released, but since they were available at Gen Con don't you guys think FFG should be held responsible for addressing these issues sooner rather than later? It may not be sneaky or flat out wrong on their part, but it is a little unfair to put these things in people's hands and then play mute for months on end.

And maybe not for you, but for myself, the ability to avoid having to barrel roll onto an obstacle has proven more positive then negative. It depends on the situation and different persons opinions and experiences. You just assumed that for everyone else out there that not being able to barrel roll onto obstacle at all times is a negative thing.

Here's what you said:

"...the unlikely event that FFG would give Dash an ability for being an excellent pilot at the expense of a benefit that any other pilot can make"

You didn't qualify it. You didn't say it depended. You said it's a benefit for any other pilot to not be able to land on an asteroid.

I, however, did. I said things like "nothing guarantees" and "potentially". And you say I'm declaring that it's a negative at all times.

Has the forum opened a rift into Bizarro World here? Are you trapped? We can send help!

So we've done a great job at keeping in the spirit of good debate, thanks guys. I know as well as you do we can see something that is completely logical to us and FFG toss a curve ball at us. This one will come down to the FAQ. I do however enjoy the open forums for everyone to toss in their thoughts.

Everyone is welcome to contribute. That does not mean everyone's contribution deserves equal weight. Shado's entire point rests on his perceived quality of Dash's ability, that ability as it relates to Dash's lore capabilities, and his assumption that FFG would follow his interpretation of both. I could as easily make an evaluation based on the astrological configuration on the day Dash's card was previewed, and it would have about as much bearing.

I'm perfectly fine with the rules discussion - I said back on the first page there's really not enough detail in the timing rules to call this one way or another for certain, and I still think that. And the rules debate is all fine and good.

But I'm not fond of someone literally inventing my words from whole cloth, especially when that invention is exactly what they were doing.

How is saying "unlikely event" the same as saying that FFG agrees with me? Its just my opinion that FFG doing that is an unlikely event.

It is also my opinion that being allowed to avoid an obstacle when barrel rolling is a benefit. Maybe not always, but at most times in my opinion. Sorry if I didn't convolute my post with a hundred extra words covering every fine detail of the topic I am pertaining to.

Again I ask, am I not entitled to my own opinions?

Maybe I'm the only one who would finds this odd.

Why give Dash the ability to ignore obstacles while maneuvering, and apparently performing actions, yet allow him to completely ignore that ability after learning he doesn't want to use that ability so he can go back to a state where he doesn't use the ability?

If you want to roll to the right to try to get out of an arc Dash can do it unless there is another ship in the say. Most other ships/pilots can't risk it if there is no safe place to roll but with Dash's skill there is almost always a safe place to go. Sometimes that place may leave him unable to shoot but he can still go there.

Until FFG wants to clarify things I believe they may be getting a little too liberal with the word may after getting stung by some completely unintended (anyone really think the problem with Swarm Tactics was obvious?) consequences of having things dictated. Aside from this one question which everyone seems to be arguing about are there really any circumstances where removing the word "may" from Dash's ability would have an effect? I don't know about any of you but I know "may" wouldn't even cross my mind when it lets me avoid taking damage and losing actions from crossing/landing on an obstacle.

Again I ask, am I not entitled to my own opinions?

Of course you are. But I'm also quite entitled to my opinion about your opinion.

You're allowed an opinion; that does not make it immune to evaluation.

How about we all agree to put Engine Upgrade and PTL on Dash and if he land on an astroid and there is a astroid close to where he might barrel roll he MUST boost first then barrel roll

or some thing like that

So i was reading my dictionary

may

verb (3rd singular present may; past might /mʌɪt/)

can

verb (3rd singular present can; past could /kʊd/)

must

just in case you wanted to know

To be safe, id call things like

1. "I'm going to attempt a barrel roll NOT USING Dash's ability", attempt the roll, if you fit, you must take it.

If you don't fit, you can take another action.

2. Then, if you'd like, you can say "ill attempt a barrel roll USING Dash's ability" then proceed to roll on the rock (in hopes to boost off it I assume)

Though in all honesty, you should be able to choose whilst looking at the barrel roll. It says "may" after all, and it doesn't day when that "may" applies. Osoroshi is probably right.

To be safe, though, for now I would use the order of operations I outlined above.

Maybe I'm the only one who would finds this odd.

Why give Dash the ability to ignore obstacles while maneuvering, and apparently performing actions, yet allow him to completely ignore that ability after learning he doesn't want to use that ability so he can go back to a state where he doesn't use the ability?

Page 9 of the main rulebook. Unless an ability has the word "may" or "Action" or "Attack" in the header then the ability is mandatory. Since Dash's cards says "may" it means the ability is not mandatory and can be used at the discretion of the player controlling it.

Since Dash's cards says "may" it means the ability is not mandatory and can be used at the discretion of the player controlling it.

Unless what they meant was that Dash "can" ignore obstacles and they are just screwing up because of the English language. [rolleyes]

Well I got one answer back from FFG on a question I asked about triggering PTL and EI off of a free action. I submitted this question the same day so figures crossed we "may :p" get a ruling soon on this.

In terms of shooting someone in arc who is range 1 of Biggs. I think she would not have to shoot Biggs with the torp. She could fail the "may" check on her ability if he is out of her arc. Since unlike turrets her ability is a "may". As a note turret upgrades specifically state "Attack: Attack 1 ship (even a ship outside your firing arc)." and turret primaries state "When attacking with a turret primary weapon, a ship may target an enemy ship inside or outside its firing arc.". So neither allow a choice to target inside or outside of firing arc. Thus she can decide to just use her APT on her original choice of target.

I'm confused. You say that turrets are not a "may," then quote a block of text that specifically says "may."

Indeed the word may is used. But not to say you may target a ship outside of your firing arc. It is specifically "may target an enemy ship inside or outside its firing arc". This is giving you the choice of whether you shoot inside or outside, not a choice on whether you want the ability to shoot outside firing arc.

But that is kinda beside the point because I misread Nera's ability as "may perform" instead of "can perform". So going to go fetch my coat about now!

Indeed the word may is used. But not to say you may target a ship outside of your firing arc. It is specifically "may target an enemy ship inside or outside its firing arc". This is giving you the choice of whether you shoot inside or outside, not a choice on whether you want the ability to shoot outside firing arc.

We now know how turrets are supposed to work, but only after much clarification. As written, you could actually interpret it either way. It just didn't matter until recently.

True that.

And maybe not for you, but for myself, the ability to avoid having to barrel roll onto an obstacle has proven more positive then negative. It depends on the situation and different persons opinions and experiences. You just assumed that for everyone else out there that not being able to barrel roll onto obstacle at all times is a negative thing.

Here's what you said:

"...the unlikely event that FFG would give Dash an ability for being an excellent pilot at the expense of a benefit that any other pilot can make"

You didn't qualify it. You didn't say it depended. You said it's a benefit for any other pilot to not be able to land on an asteroid.

I, however, did. I said things like "nothing guarantees" and "potentially". And you say I'm declaring that it's a negative at all times.

Has the forum opened a rift into Bizarro World here? Are you trapped? We can send help!

Oh, and I said "at the expense of an ABILITY (not benefit, as I know that ability is sometimes a negative) any other pilot can make."

So your insult was very misplaced, especially after having accused me of inventing your words from whole clothe. But I forgive you. We all make mistakes.

Buhallin wasn't being snarky, he was truly and honestly concerned that you might have gotten trapped in another dimension. Truly.

Just checked to see what could've gotten this thread to 9 pages and saw dictionary definitions. Obviously, the discussion has reached the end point.

Just checked to see what could've gotten this thread to 9 pages and saw dictionary definitions. Obviously, the discussion has reached the end point.

Adolf Hitler had a dictionary too, you know.

Now it has reached the end point.

It's really unresolved until we get the FAQ for wave 5. It will be a wait and see.

Well I am glad what they did to clarify Dash' ability. I thought it would be weak if Dash' ability denied him the ability to opt out of a barrel roll or boost if it landed him on an obstacle, seeing as every other pilot has that ability (which I am aware is not always a positive thing). But I agree that it would probably be too powerful of an ability if he could choose to opt out or use his ability after seeing if he lands on an obstacle. I like that he has the choice to not use his ability if you suspect you may land on an obstacle, but have to declare not using his ability before measuring. I like that this gives Dash both abilities, but not at too powerful of a factor, IMO.

So to the OP, I would say that no it wasn't sneaky, as Dash is allowed to avoid landing on obstacles. Seeing as there was no wording yet stating that Dash must declare to not use his ability before measuring, the player technically was following the now existing protocol, minus the new FAQ.

From the FAQ:

"Dash Rendar

When declaring a barrel roll or boost, Dash Rendar must choose whether or not to use his ability before measuring if he would overlap an obstacle."

Ok, kinda disappointed in this rule. However the rules are the rules, but let's have fun. So Dash says he may ignores Obsticles during movment, so what is the default on or off. The FAQ only says I have decide befor measuring for an action. What about befor the movment? Is this a separate trigger for Movment. So I revel my dial for Dash and it has a 4 Straight and goes over a rock. Now I move and say yeah I use his ability and the I decide not to use his ability while I attempt to boost over another?

Did they really even fix anything with the FAQ update to dash. So I say I'm not using his ability and move my ship to see that I overlapped. I then regain my action and declare I'm now going to use his ability and take the same action landing on the rock!