I never liked that you could cancel a Barrel roll if it caused you to land on an Asteroid. I mean, just watch where you're flying, if you crash, too bad for you. If you do a turn and slam into a rock, you don't get to switch to a straight to avoid overlapping either.

It prevents scenarios where you would want to overlap things, like ships. For example, if you have a higher PS and make a bad maneuver, you could potentially barrel roll into an enemy ship to prevent it from firing at you. That's clearly not the intent of the action, so while it may not fit thematically, it works mechanically.

I already pasted the barrel roll related paragraph from the FAQ in this thread. How I read it is you may do the template premeasure before committing as stated in the rulebook, then if you decide to follow through an take the BR action you do so in the way described on the competitive play FAQ.

Then you're reading it wrong. The rules don't permit you to "decide to follow through" after you measure. You declare the action, at which point you're committed. Then you measure, and if it's legal you can complete the maneuver. It's very straightforward. At no point in the game are you permitted to use your templates to measure something without having made a declaration first.

It seems like it will really come down to whether Dash's "may" will supersede the "can" and "must" of the FAQ and barrel rolling.

The original rulebook left Target Lock, Boost, and Barrel Role with opportunities for exploitation without the current FAQ (which I assume was mostly based on measuring the action to gain additional information without the actual intent of completing it). That may have been written before and/or without considering the impact/conflict of the wording of the two rules. So, the ultimate ruling will probably be based on how Dash's ability interacts/impacts the original purpose for the ruling in the FAQ.

Why should it be as soon as? We have a time when you must consider overlapping obstacles, it comes when you measure and you overlap them. Till then you don't have to declare anything about what you are doing. So no declaration about his ability till the trigger which is "Here is an obstacle I am overlapping". In most situations that would mean cancelling the action at that point. For Dash, at that point, he can choose to ignore the obstacle. He is not required to.

I don't see this as at all complicated.

Because that's what when means? Think about what you're trying to compare here. Han's ability is worded poorly, because it gives you a trigger for an ongoing process. Despite that fact, the attack phase has seven discreet steps which make the poor wording of his ability irrelevant. Attack dice can only be modified at one specific point, so that's when you do it. Dash's ability says "when performing actions." There is no universal set of steps for resolving every action, and Dash doesn't single out boost and barrel roll. As soon as and after are the only other common denominators, and after simply makes no sense for a trigger. It must be as soon as.

Again, the problem we're encountering here has more to do with the rules than it does Dash. In Magic, there are specific and very clearly defined trigger words ("when," "whenever," and "at"), and they always happen immediately. We're not afforded the luxury of such concrete and explicit rules in X-Wing, sadly.

Remember that Magic also has delayed effects from triggers.

Dash's ability will trigger when he performs an action, but the effect is delayed until he encounters an obstacle.

I agree with WonderWAAAGH's interpretation of the trigger period being at the beginning of performing an action, ie before measuring begins. This of course means you can use the "try the action without it, if it fails then you can decide whether or not to try the action with it" trick, so you might as well play it as decide while performing the action, just to save time.

As for "during the activation phase", which is clearly vaguer, to me this would trigger a new opportunity every time the overlapping obstacles rule is triggered, allowing you to choose whether or not to use the ability multiple times throughout the phase.

Eh, it's a semantic distinction. There are triggering events and triggered effects, and it's too easy to refer to either as simply a "trigger." Delayed triggers still have the appropriate phraseology to establish when they occur, which is immediately upon a set condition being fulfilled. In this case "when performing an action" would be the triggering event, at which point Dash's controller would have to make a choice. The effect would then kick in at the relevant time.

The delayed trigger kicks in when Dash encounters the obstacle while performing his action.

You know what our problem is?

We're trying to use established Magic conventions for very loosely written cards that don't follow that structure.

Frank admitted in an email that Tactician is ambiguous, and it is one of the more recent cards printed.

We're not getting perfection. What we do get is a fairly simple game that suits most people. Responsible TOs will rule as best as they can and casual players will roll dice to settle rule disputes over their kitchen tables, like the rule book tells them to.

Sometimes it might be worth swallowing a big RAI pill and remember thst card text trumps the rules.

We are unlikely to ever get watertight X-Wing rules, so at some point we have to make do with what we have.

Keep in mind we are just talking about the result of the question. These are all opinions until FFG has made the final ruling. It's fine to guess and apply any logic you can. No one is ,Cheating or Wrong. Keep the topic civil please.

Why should it be as soon as? We have a time when you must consider overlapping obstacles, it comes when you measure and you overlap them. Till then you don't have to declare anything about what you are doing. So no declaration about his ability till the trigger which is "Here is an obstacle I am overlapping". In most situations that would mean cancelling the action at that point. For Dash, at that point, he can choose to ignore the obstacle. He is not required to.

I don't see this as at all complicated.

Because that's what when means? Think about what you're trying to compare here. Han's ability is worded poorly, because it gives you a trigger for an ongoing process. Despite that fact, the attack phase has seven discreet steps which make the poor wording of his ability irrelevant. Attack dice can only be modified at one specific point, so that's when you do it. Dash's ability says "when performing actions." There is no universal set of steps for resolving every action, and Dash doesn't single out boost and barrel roll. As soon as and after are the only other common denominators, and after simply makes no sense for a trigger. It must be as soon as.

Again, the problem we're encountering here has more to do with the rules than it does Dash. In Magic, there are specific and very clearly defined trigger words ("when," "whenever," and "at"), and they always happen immediately. We're not afforded the luxury of such concrete and explicit rules in X-Wing, sadly.

It may be poorly worded, but I don't see any logic why the trigger for checking why you activate Dash's ability should be declaring an action. The ability refers to overlapping obstacles. The first 2 clauses determine when you can activate the second part of the ability which allows you to ignore the obstacle. They give no information on how to trigger the ability, so I think it would have to trigger when you overlap. At that point you get to choose whether you want to ignore or not.

The above is why I feel the Howlrunner example works best. Since you wait until after the attack to declare her ability and reroll 1 die. Imagine if you had to declare her ability before the first attack and then if you rolled 2 hits were forced to reroll one and got a blank.

After you commit to your action you can. Throwing down your template at any other time is cheating.

A whole lot of people are basing this on the competitive rules, which are optional unless playing in tournament that uses them. FFG doesn't rule based on the competitive rules, they're based on the standard rules.

Per the standard rules, you can in fact put down the template during your activation and check every possible place a BR could take you before you commit to making one at all. In standard rules there is never a "must if it can fit" case.

So per the standard rules, Dash's ability will let you chose to use it or not after you check to see where the BR takes you.

The core issue here is with barrel roll. What is a pre-measure? To me, it's placing the maneuver template after declaring a barrel roll (right or left) action. If it appears there aren't any valid positions on that side, you aren't committed to the action and can choose another. Dash's ability doesn't make any difference.

The confusion for me is in moving the model. Moving your model is not a premeasure, it's executing an action. If you're taking the action and it turns out that somehow you misjudged the premeasure, you must use Dash's ability to perform the barrel roll.

The other part is: what happens when you premeasure and try to barrel roll a TIE into an asteroid? I've always played that you lose your action because the action you're locked into (by having attempted to execute by picking up the model) is impossible to complete. Unless the rules specifically say you get to select another action if the barrel roll can't be performed during execution, the "take back" section of premeasurement doesn't apply, as after premeasurement you are committed to that action.

I believe that the ability's use should be declared before the attempted action, after all, coordinating a fleet requires situational awareness; does it not??

I believe that the ability's use should be declared before the attempted action, after all, coordinating a fleet requires situational awareness; does it not??

Fluff not needed in rules discussions...

The core issue here is with barrel roll. What is a pre-measure? To me, it's placing the maneuver template after declaring a barrel roll (right or left) action. If it appears there aren't any valid positions on that side, you aren't committed to the action and can choose another. Dash's ability doesn't make any difference.

The confusion for me is in moving the model. Moving your model is not a premeasure, it's executing an action. If you're taking the action and it turns out that somehow you misjudged the premeasure, you must use Dash's ability to perform the barrel roll.

The other part is: what happens when you premeasure and try to barrel roll a TIE into an asteroid? I've always played that you lose your action because the action you're locked into (by having attempted to execute by picking up the model) is impossible to complete. Unless the rules specifically say you get to select another action if the barrel roll can't be performed during execution, the "take back" section of premeasurement doesn't apply, as after premeasurement you are committed to that action.

There is no premeasurement, if you can't complete the barrel roll or boost you go back. That is specifically determined in the rules.

I'm in the SableGryphon camp for all the reasons he already listed. I feel like that's the most logical and least confusing way to interpret it.

As has been said, I don't know if that's how things will shake out, just my opinion. If I was running a tournament where those ships were legal tomorrow, that would be my ruling until a more firm ruling is in place.

The core issue here is with barrel roll. What is a pre-measure?

That depends on what version you're playing, standard or competitive.

Under standard rules you can measure the BR before you commit to the action, even if you do fit, you can still do something else.

Under competitive rules you effectively have to declare the BR and then measure, if you can fit, you have to preform the BR, if you don't fit, you can do something else.

I've always played that you lose your action because the action you're locked into (by having attempted to execute by picking up the model) is impossible to complete.

You never lose your ability to take an action. The BR rules are quite clear on this, you can not BR onto an obstacle, so if you measure and are unsure, put the model down and find out it does in fact overlap, and you can't slide one way or the other off, you have to put the model back where it was and pick a different action.

From the Competitive Rules

If the ship cannot perform the barrel roll action, the player may declare a barrel roll in the other direction, or he may declare a different action.

From the Standard Rules

A ship cannot perform a barrel roll if this would cause its base to overlap another ship or obstacle token. The player may measure to see if his ship can perform a barrel roll before committing to this action.

That falls in line with what I said. You can premeasure. You've done so with the template and it looks clear. You're now committed to the action.

Then you attempt to execute. Picking up the model, it turns out you're over the line of an obstacle somehow. Now you're prevented from executing as you can't barrel roll onto an obstacle, but you are committed to the action because you're no longer premeasuring.

The core issue here is with barrel roll. What is a pre-measure? To me, it's placing the maneuver template after declaring a barrel roll (right or left) action. If it appears there aren't any valid positions on that side, you aren't committed to the action and can choose another. Dash's ability doesn't make any difference.

The confusion for me is in moving the model. Moving your model is not a premeasure, it's executing an action. If you're taking the action and it turns out that somehow you misjudged the premeasure, you must use Dash's ability to perform the barrel roll.

The other part is: what happens when you premeasure and try to barrel roll a TIE into an asteroid? I've always played that you lose your action because the action you're locked into (by having attempted to execute by picking up the model) is impossible to complete. Unless the rules specifically say you get to select another action if the barrel roll can't be performed during execution, the "take back" section of premeasurement doesn't apply, as after premeasurement you are committed to that action.

Ok, so here is an example of two ships that can Barrel Roll to the right. I've set up the templates for the intended action. One of these ships can't make the move while one can. With out moving the ship can you really tell?

By being so close the only real way to tell is by moving the ship. If we open this "don't move the ship or you committed" the who makes the call if the ship will fit? So here the rocks are moved slightly and it appears there is plenty of room for the action to be completed. What if I decide my ship does not fit without actually seeing and decide another action. That just feels wrong:

but you are committed to the action because you're no longer premeasuring.

It doesn't work that way though, and has nothing to do with measuring. If you can't preform the BR, because it will cause you to overlap, then you are allowed to preform a different action.

The fact that you picked up your model doesn't change how the rules work. In fact you may very well have to put the model where it will go before you can know if you overlap or not.

At any point in the process if you find out you overlap something you can not preform the BR action and then have to rewind back to before you tried and pick a different action.

Keep in mind we are just talking about the result of the question. These are all opinions until FFG has made the final ruling. It's fine to guess and apply any logic you can. No one is ,Cheating or Wrong. Keep the topic civil please.

I submit that you email FFG to ask them! At the very least it should make it into the next FAQ.

Keep in mind we are just talking about the result of the question. These are all opinions until FFG has made the final ruling. It's fine to guess and apply any logic you can. No one is ,Cheating or Wrong. Keep the topic civil please.

I submit that you email FFG to ask them! At the very least it should make it into the next FAQ.

I submit that you email FFG to ask them! At the very least it should make it into the next FAQ.

I have already done that .

Keep in mind we are just talking about the result of the question. These are all opinions until FFG has made the final ruling. It's fine to guess and apply any logic you can. No one is ,Cheating or Wrong. Keep the topic civil please.

I submit that you email FFG to ask them! At the very least it should make it into the next FAQ.

With this many pages a response should arrive fairly quickly too.

Not always, they tend to wait until the official release of products before ruling on them.

Not always, they tend to wait until the official release of products before ruling on them.

They may answer this one now, since there are wave 5 ships out there. But the number of pages on the form doesn't seem to have to do with how fast they answer.

Let's just hope they give a generic answer regarding whether you have to use "may" abilities if it would allow you to comply with a "must" ability.

Speaking of which, if Biggs was behind Nera, and she had Deadeye, a focus token, and a torpedo, I suppose she'd be compelled to shoot him with it rather than use her primary weapon to shoot forwards.