Okay opening this conversation up. Now that we have atleast 4 different torpedos now. I bring this up because in the games X-wing and Rouge Squadron torpedos did more damage than missiles. However in X-wing miniatures it seems that missiles have a firepower advantage and are fielded more often. What are your thoughts on them?

Rouge Leader, is that you?

Rouge Leader, is that you?

Still back on topic Missiles or Torpedoes? Which is better and why? (and does it match the fluff?)

Here, I'll try to be less oblique:

I told you I have a terrible sense of humor. Edit: is it just me, or does he look like Linda Richman? I'm getting all verklempt, talk amongst yourselves.

Here, I'll try to be less oblique:

I told you I have a terrible sense of humor.

Still...

MISSILES OR TORPEDOES?!?!?!?!?!?

Missiles still offer better offensive potential, are more versatile, and are available on more ships. I find it a bit odd, to be honest, since I'm more invested in the movies than the X-Wing vidya games. Perhaps vets of the series can chime in.

In universe torpedoes are supposed to be more powerful than missiles though I don't know how significant the difference is. In the digital side side of Star Wars this has usually been true but with the addition that missiles track and turn better than torps. In this game however there is not much difference in destructive power. Missiles tend to see more use as they are usually easier to use and are more worth their points.

Short rundown of the averages, I've left focus out of the picture because it's about the stopping power of the cards alone

Flechette Torps [Range 2-3]:

3 = average of 1.5 hit (including crits) results, plus Stress for the Defender if not >4

Proton Torps [Range 2-3]:

4 = Average of 2 hit results pre-modification; Average of 1 Focus result which post-modification becomes a crit/3rd hit result (Modifier capped at 1 result changed)

Ion Torps [Range 2-3]:

4 = Average of 2 hit results; Splash Ion Tokens at Range 1

Adv. Proton Torps [Range 1]:

5 = Average of 2.5 hit results and average of 1.25 Focus pre-modification; Avergage of 1.25 Blanks which post modification become Focus (Modifier capped at 3 results changed)

Ion Pulse Missiles [Range 2-3]:

3 = Average of 1.5 hit results; Always Target Lock modifier (raises average hits by 0.75 if spend), 2 Ion Tokens put capped at 1 Damage

Proton Rockets [Range 1]:

2 + Agilty Value = Average of 1 + Agility*0.5 hit results; Possibility of Target Lock modifier

Cluster Missiles [Range 1-2]:

3 x 2 = Average of 1.5 hit results each, summing up to an average of 3 hits

Concussion Missiles [Range 2-3]:

4 = Average of 2 hit results pre-modification; Average of 1 Blank result which becomes a 3rd hit post modification (Modifier capped at 1 result changed)

Assault Missiles [Range 2-3]:

4 = Average of 2 hit results; Splash 1 Damage at Range 1

Homing Missiles [Range 2-3]:

4 = Average of 2 hit results pre-modification; always has Target Lock modifier (raises average hits by 1 if spend)

The first Torps and Missiles that are in a field of direct comparison are Concussion Missiles and Proton Torpedos, which level out hits-wise at an average of 3 - Proton Torps have the superior modifier (Focus to Crit) on an average roll, Concussion Missiles have the superior modifier on a less that average roll

The second pair that is in a field of comparison are Ion Trops and Assault Missiles; as far as hits are concerned have the same average but so it comes down to the secondary effect which is far harder to compare (Ion can be very disruptive and set up a kill from another ship, while damage is damage)

Adv. Proton Torps vs Proton Rockets on a 3 ship is a possible comparison at a TL+F stage in which both level out at an average of 5 hits (rounded up for Proton Rockets); however the comparison is difficult because you have to factor in the ship involved (e.g. cheapester carriers are Prototype A-Wing with Proton Rockets and Scimitar T/B with Adv. Proton Torps - in which the Scimitar is more expensive by 1 point)

Flechette Torps vs Ion Pulse Missiles is a clear win in damage category for the Flechette Torps as they are not capped, but in the utility category it depends on the Target: on a >4 ship the Ion Pulse Missile comes out ahead (esspecially since most ships with >4 are large ships), on a <5 ship Flechettes come out ahead as Stressed can possibly last longer than Ionized

Clusters and Homing Missiles have no clear counterpart. Homing Missiles are superior to Proton Torps but also more expensive; Clusters are cheaper and have higher range than Adv. Proton Torps but have lower damage average which even more diminished as it done against 2 evade rolls instead of 1

In the end none is superior by the averages to the other, but it depends on what you want with the secondary effects (and of course which ships you have avalible).

Short rundown of the averages, I've left focus out of the picture because it's about the stopping power of the cards alone

You shouldn't, because focus is a big factor. For example, concussion missiles benefit much more from a F+TL stack, while proton torps don't gain very much from the focus token since you're already turning an eye into a crit. On the other hand cluster missiles are really bad with focus because it's two separate attacks and you can only focus one of them.

Adv. Proton Torps [Range 1]:

5 = Average of 2.5 hit results and average of 1.25 Focus pre-modification; Avergage of 1.25 Blanks which post modification become Focus (Modifier capped at 3 results changed)

This is missing the key fact that you almost always fire advanced proton torps with a focus token available, and if you can't consistently do it you don't waste points on them. So what this really means is that you have a 98.5% chance of dealing 5 damage, and a 99.9% chance of dealing at least 4 damage.

Proton Rockets [Range 1]:

2 + Agilty Value = Average of 1 + Agility*0.5 hit results; Possibility of Target Lock modifier

You're missing the fact that proton rockets just require you to have a focus token, they don't spend it. So, assuming you take them on a 3-agility ship (the only ship that's likely to ever use them) you're averaging 3.75 hits, and even a 2-agility ship is getting 3 hits.

Cluster Missiles [Range 1-2]:

3 x 2 = Average of 1.5 hit results each, summing up to an average of 3 hits

One important thing to note here is that your target rolls defense dice against each attack separately, so those 3 hits will average less damage inflicted (often by a rather large margin) compared to a single concussion missile that scores its average 3 hits.

Homing Missiles [Range 2-3]:

4 = Average of 2 hit results pre-modification; always has Target Lock modifier (raises average hits by 1 if spend)

You also need to consider the fact that your target can't use evade tokens against the homing missile. So, while you have the same average 3 damage as a concussion missile, you're going to inflict more damage in a lot of situations.

Adv. Proton Torps vs Proton Rockets on a 3 ship is a possible comparison at a TL+F stage in which both level out at an average of 5 hits (rounded up for Proton Rockets); however the comparison is difficult because you have to factor in the ship involved (e.g. cheapester carriers are Prototype A-Wing with Proton Rockets and Scimitar T/B with Adv. Proton Torps - in which the Scimitar is more expensive by 1 point)

And besides cost you have to consider chances of getting to range 1 to deliver a good shot. An a-wing's superior maneuverability and easy access to PTL for boost + focus (getting into range consistently) or focus + TL (maximizing damage) make it a lot more likely to successfully use its weapon compared to the ships that can take advanced torps.

I've tried to compare the cards without accounting for the Ships that use it or defend against it, because that is a whole different can of worms (because you have to factor in the base size, the dial, other actions etc.)

Taking Focus out of the calculations is another thing because there are other ways to gain and loose Focus before/during the attack (e.g. firinig at Dark Curse, being in Range 1 of Carnor Jax, getting a token/action from Garven/Lando/Kyle Kartan)

Also the effect of Focus has nothing to do with the stastics of the dice roll and I was concered with the attack roll only

In short, both are bad. Both tend to be expensive and you only get one shot, which in a dice game just isn't good enough.

They're not all bad. I've been able to have a LOT of fun with Assault Missiles, which usually have one of two very good effects: they either will force formations apart and thus mitigate focus fire (not to mention controlling your opponent's moves) or they deal out a bunch of damage to several ships. And if you stick 'em on Lt. Blount, you can do it without even having to hit.

Also the effect of Focus has nothing to do with the stastics of the dice roll...

In short, both are bad. Both tend to be expensive and you only get one shot, which in a dice game just isn't good enough.

They're not bad, they're finicky.

Every time I play a Bomber list against someone new, my opponent's eyes bug out and he or she thinks I'm getting incredibly lucky with my dice rolls. Then I explain that the most common outcome for Proton Torpedoes with Jonus' reroll is 4; with two torpedoes, I'm overwhelmingly likely to get 6-8 hits and crits.

The round after that is usually when I launch Cluster Missiles, at which point I've had people just quit.

The thing about Missiles and Torpedoes is they are one shot and best used against something with few green dice. This generally favors the Imperials using them more often than the Rebels. Imperials get more options for Missiles than Torpedoes. Therefore, you see more Missiles than Torpedoes on the table.

Wait until the Decimator comes out. With no green dice, it will become a magnet for Proton Torpedoes. Once the shields go down, the Torpedoes will come out. The ability to most likely have a crit is going to be great against big ships.

I think Munitions Failsafe pretty much makes Missiles and Torpedoes worth it. I have often wondered about taking Proton Torpedoes more often with MF.

The best use of Missiles or Torpedoes that I've seen is to them in pairs. Two Concussion Missiles have a good chance to destroy a ship, especially if they are X-wings (less green dice). OK...one of those is usually Vader...who gets a focus, as well.

Probably missiles for versatility though in the fluff, torps are more powerful. With releases such as Flechettes and Ions, this might change however.

Proton Torpedoes are more powerful, technically. Concussion Missiles and PT both give an average of 3 hits, but the Proton Torpedoes means one of those will be a crit (most likely). So....they are more powerful. It's just that the Imperials don't have a derth of low agility ships to use them against (at the moment).

Problem is ordinance is just to expensive (flechette, proton rockets, ion pulse, ion, and assault exceptions). This is being ratified however.

I would love to see a modification that lets you fire *Hit* and keep your ordnance for one more attack. MF to me is kind of a crappy bandaid to make ordnance more viable. All it really does is now make them more expensive.

Would missiles/torpedoes be OP if they were NOT a one use item? i.e. you could fire every round, so long as you were a: at the correct range and b: had a target lock available to spend?

I think they might still be too expensive compared to the other options available, even then...

Would missiles/torpedoes be OP if they were NOT a one use item? i.e. you could fire every round, so long as you were a: at the correct range and b: had a target lock available to spend?

I think they might still be too expensive compared to the other options available, even then...

They would not be too expensive for me!!!!

I'd love to see Wedge firing off a Proton Torpedo every round.

It's not an original thought, but basically all munitions have been overcosted and underperforming. It's no coincidence that missiles and torps are coming in cheaper now, don't always require spending TL/focus, and that Munitions Failsafe was introduced. They still need some combination of easier use (e.g., not having to spend the target lock so that it can be used for more efficiency), a point reduction (1-2 points in some cases), and/or being more than single use. If there had been some mechanism for reload/cooldown, all ordnance could have (for the current price), been multi-fire weapons without being overpowered. But as it is, do you want a turret or cannon that fires all day for 3/5/7 points, a 4/5 point missile/torp that fires once?

Not all ships have the option for a turrent or cannon. Missiles or Torps are the weapon for the little guy to hit something hard.

The effectiveness of ordinance also depends on the pilots. Cluster Missiles tend to be three attack dice that you can maybe focus once. Cluster Missiles on Vessary (if he has his own target lock) are three dice attacks that get a TL to spend on each roll. Flechettes on Nera will also be terrific, and with a Failsafe you actually want them to miss.

They also depend on the target. Clusters are not great against Interceptors, but will murder YT-1300s, Decimators, Y-Wings, B-Wings, shuttles and Huge Ships. Flechettes, meanwhile, will barely scratch the hull of those ships, and will only stress a B-Wing.

Would missiles/torpedoes be OP if they were NOT a one use item? i.e. you could fire every round, so long as you were a: at the correct range and b: had a target lock available to spend?

I think they might still be too expensive compared to the other options available, even then...

If you price something high enough it is pretty hard to make something overpowered.

I DO think they could make a missile or torpedo that could be used round after round assuming you meet the basic conditions. In fact they already have them now although they are in a different upgrade slot: Cannons. Looking at the Scyk upgrade title it would seem that Cannon, torpedo, and missile upgrade slots would all be valued the same so the "balancing" factor between those secondary weapons must be their cost and use requirement.

If someone wanted to test things I'd suggest a non-discarding Proton Torpedo for 7 points that has the "Attack (TL). Discard TL to use this attack," language on it. The perfect test platform for how OP it would be is the B-Wing as it could clearly be compared to the HLC. Run some tests with B-Wings using the HLC and some using this Proton Torpedo bank and see which perform better. I suspect things to still favor the HLC when the ordnance had TL requirement before it could even be used.

I suspect things to still favor the HLC when the ordnance had TL requirement before it could even be used.

Why? If you can acquire a TL then you can usually also fire on the enemy, and you get the target lock right before you fire.