Will you always be in the hole, no. But if you can force him to use his action for Barrel Roll or Boost, then you are coming out okay. Unmodified attacks, even with 4 dice, is not that scary.

Will you always be in the hole, no. But if you can force him to use his action for Barrel Roll or Boost, then you are coming out okay. Unmodified attacks, even with 4 dice, is not that scary.

Yep. Blocking or forcing him to use actions to barrel roll is one of the more effective options. Stress and Ion will also be highly useful strategies. If you can force half of their points to be making an unmodified HLC shot once per turn then you will be doing quite well.

As a YT-2400 player: You should play expecting your opponent to know about the blind spot and try to compensate accordingly.

So running multiple ships with IPMs is really going to ruin Dash's day. Good to know.

So running multiple ships with IPMs is really going to ruin Dash's day. Good to know.

That is something else I thought of. Those are some of my favorite ordnance.

I've been more interested with an outrider + ion set up than HLC. While not as good on paper, since everyone is expecting HLC's it could be a good "under the radar" kit.

And at least there's no donut hole

I've been more interested with an outrider + ion set up than HLC. While not as good on paper, since everyone is expecting HLC's it could be a good "under the radar" kit.

And at least there's no donut hole

You've also got a 45-50 point ship doing a whopping 1 damage per turn, if it hits at all. That's simply not going to cut it.

If I understand right, you are defining the "donut hole" as the only safe places to hide after movement from a non barrel rolling, non boosting YT-2400 + HLC + Outrider.

Although your diagram is interesting, I don't find it very meaningful since you removed all range 1 that overlapped with range 2 or 3. I'd like to see what happens when you superposition range 1, 2, and 3 of all possible movement. Rather than giving us the "donut hole" I want to see what the probability of a spot being in range 1 after all possible movement is considered.

When I made this diagram, I deleted all Range 1 bands, then I added layer after layer of each movement's Range 2/3 firing arcs.

(Starting positions were kept identical, of course)

So the information you're looking for isn't "lost" in the way I've done this, but it's not easily extractable, either. You can determine the probability of a spot being within Range 1 based on the opacity of the layers.

We could say this:

"Very opaque" means there's a lot of arcs that hit that spot; therefore, zero or near-zero chance of being at Range 1.

"Somewhat opaque" means there's a better probability of that spot being at Range 1.

"Somewhat transparent" means a high chance of being at Range 1.

"Completely transparent" is 100% chance of being at Range 1.

Problem is, I arbitrarily set each layer at 50% transparency, because that was a nice round number. But it adds up very quickly. So I don't know how good your eyes are, but I can only count about four firing arcs deep before I can't tell the difference between adding another one or not. If I made them more transparent, it would be easier to see the relative "safety" of the various areas inside the danger zone; but in any case, it's not really quantitative information anyways. This is all just to answer the question, "Qualitatively, what can we tell from the possible final results of a ship's movement?"

Could you possibly tweak and redo this diagram? Looking back, I think all we need is to determine if it is or isn't range 1. That is if differentiate range 1 from the union of range 2 and 3.

There are a number of ways of doing this but leaving range 1 transparent and having both range 2 and range 3 say 10% transparent would be a good place to start.

I've been more interested with an outrider + ion set up than HLC. While not as good on paper, since everyone is expecting HLC's it could be a good "under the radar" kit.

And at least there's no donut hole

You've also got a 45-50 point ship doing a whopping 1 damage per turn, if it hits at all. That's simply not going to cut it.

Dare to dream, brother! I can think of a few lists/strategies that could be effective, or at the very least, quite fun. Given, I prefer to have the ship in hand before getting deep in the strategies, so maybe I'm missing something critical, but that's ok. I prefer a good uphill battle.

EDIT: OK, I lied about waiting to have the ship in hand. I might try this:

YT-2400 [40]

Wild Space Fringer (30)

Ion Cannon (3)

Outrider (5)

APL's (2)

Other Crap (except e-wings...ugh) [60]

/end list

Since the YT-2400's dial is so good, it shouldn't have a problem ion'ing, then getting in front of most ships. If you do it right, you could possibly deny the ship you're blocking a shot, then ion something further out to deny another shot next turn. Somewhat troll-ish, but I'm still going to try it.

I've been more interested with an outrider + ion set up than HLC. While not as good on paper, since everyone is expecting HLC's it could be a good "under the radar" kit.

And at least there's no donut hole

You've also got a 45-50 point ship doing a whopping 1 damage per turn, if it hits at all. That's simply not going to cut it.

Yeah I'm not sold on the idea of a ship costing 50% of your squad and only doing one damage. It would also be dead in the water vs another large base ship 1vs1.

I can see all the exciting Dash vs. Dash tournament matches now! Yawn...

At first the shiny new toy will see a lot of play. It is a very good combo and the meta will shift to compensate for it's existence. Thankfully FFG has kept things balanced in this game and the answers are out there for such builds. The Meta may be finally at a paper rock scissors format. The swarm will dominate if to many people move away from phantom builds and pick up Fat Falcons and Outriders. If swarms become to dominate the Phantom will come and put the swarm back down, only to reintroduce the flying saucers back on top. The squad you decide to play will mean more to your success in a tournament then ever before.

The diagram may be misleading, but the reality is that the YT2400, as a large base ship with barrel roll, a good dial, and most likely an engine upgrade, will be super fast and working actively to stay at Range 3. Trapping it, blocking it, or even catching a ship that can turn on a dime and quite probably boost AND barrel roll will be exceptionally challenging.

And Dash can fly through asteroids.

Which is why you sub in debris fields instead let's see him barrel roll with stress eheheh.

Dash's ability specifies obstacles, not asteroids, so he is unaffected by both.

Ahh bugger so it does.

So, ironically will high PS (Turr + VI, Soontir) interceptors be a decent counter to the Outrider? They'll be able to stick with the ship and stay in the donut hole. Tricky part will be getting to the hole (thats what she said).

Exactly... I shoot down Outrider+HLC in 2-3 turns every time with this approach using any of the maneuverable, hard hitting ties. The Outrider pilot is double-screwed because those Range 1 hits are always going to be 4-5 dice.

Once an imperial player sees the Outrider+HLC he's going to immediately set up a block and flank sandwich, so Outrider pilots are going to need to think hard about (1) running interference to keep TIEs away (without blocking their own path) and (2) outmaneuvering blockers.

This all makes for super fun tactical game play on both sides, which is good!

The diagram may be misleading, but the reality is that the YT2400, as a large base ship with barrel roll, a good dial, and most likely an engine upgrade, will be super fast and working actively to stay at Range 3. Trapping it, blocking it, or even catching a ship that can turn on a dime and quite probably boost AND barrel roll will be exceptionally challenging.

And Dash can fly through asteroids.

Which is why you sub in debris fields instead let's see him barrel roll with stress eheheh.

Dash's ability specifies obstacles, not asteroids, so he is unaffected by both.

Ahh bugger so it does.

And, even if it didn't, we don't know if that will be a common accepted practice in competitive play.

I can see all the exciting Dash vs. Dash tournament matches now! Yawn...

At first the shiny new toy will see a lot of play. It is a very good combo and the meta will shift to compensate for it's existence. Thankfully FFG has kept things balanced in this game and the answers are out there for such builds. The Meta may be finally at a paper rock scissors format. The swarm will dominate if to many people move away from phantom builds and pick up Fat Falcons and Outriders. If swarms become to dominate the Phantom will come and put the swarm back down, only to reintroduce the flying saucers back on top. The squad you decide to play will mean more to your success in a tournament then ever before.

So this has me thinking, what is the counter to HLC Outrider + support?

• Swarm beats Fat Falcon because all the dice chew through C-3P0 Falcon quickly.
• Phantom beats Swarm because of maneuverability and 2 attack dice rolling at 4 defense dice
• Fat Falcon beats Phantom because turrets negate maneuverability, although gunner or higher PS is required to be a true counter.

So lets look at the HLC Outrider.

• HLC Outrider vs. Fat Falcon: depends on the support, but if HLC Outrider stays at range then it should have the advantage. HLC + Outrider + Fat Falcon should beat most wave 4 Fat Falcon lists.
• HLC Outrider vs. Phantom: will depend on PS and maneuvering. PS9 Dash can still keep Whisper out of range 1. PS7 Dash loaded up with PtL + Kyle will be a monster and easily hard counter the Phantom, if it can stay out of range 1. Support blockers will be key here.
• HLC Outrider vs. Swarm: I'm not sure about this one, actually. It'll depend on the support the HLC Outrider has. If the Outrider can fly around the edge of the swarm at range, it'll be hard for the swarm to pin it down. Dash actually has the maneuverability advantage here, especially in obstacle fields.

So, I'm not really sure that HLC Outrider lumps in with Fat Falcon, even though both are large base ships. Fat Falcon works as an end game closer because the 2 armor is a non linear effect. HLC Outrider is just a stat beast during the entire game, that wants to stay at range 3. 10 HP behind 3 agility, on a moving turret platform that can run through obstacles is really a pain to deal with.

Another thought / anecdote about countering Outrider+HLC...

I've had excellent success with Defender+HLC against the Outrider. It has the moves to stay in R1 for 4-dice primary weapon shots, but still has the agility, shields, and hull to handle a few pings from support vessels or obstacles, or in case it gets stuck at R2 for a turn. I'm kind of loving the Defender more every day.

Again, the key is the Outrider's HUGE achilles heel of the R1 blind spot. Great gameplay.

The blocking seems good at first but hard to put into practice. I have played many games at this point with this build:

Dash Rendar + Veteran Instincts + Heavy Laser Cannon + Outrider (49)

Chewbacca + Gunner + C-3PO + Millennium Falcon (51)

Dash at a PS 9 can prove to be very dangerous against the high PS ties. Currently there are two ships that match the PS level with out a Veteran Instinct on it, Soontir Fel and Darth Vader. Really only one of those is a good option and your not going to give Soontir a VI to insure he moves after Dash so you have to build low in squad points to ensure Soontir moves after Dash. Once we consider VI we do get a host of option to match or beat Dash in PS. One of the most common Pilots to match Dash is the Whisper w/ VI & ACD. Now you have a very had decision to make. Do you take initiative so you can recloak before Dash can fire the HLC at Whisper and allow Dash to adjust to the Phantoms position. Do you give up initiative and risk being fired at by the HLC with only 2 defense dice.

Here is an example of just how elusive a YT-2400 can be:

A large base ship that can end up further back then it started or:

If you plan on cutting the short game it goes long.

Now you have to take into consideration this is not a YT-1300 is rolls 2 evade dice. It will still fall under concentrated fire from a swarm. My personal belief is High PS Imperial ships will fall under the heavy hand that a HLC Turret will slap them with, however a swarm will send the combo packing in just a few turns.

Always give Dash the initiative with a phantom. Who cares if he fires first when you're hiding in the hole?

Again, forcing VI Dash to either use his boost or barrel roll is a win. Quite a few people are saying that you won't always be able to be in the hole. But, forcing him to use his actions to get a ship into firing range is a win. A HLC is nice, but there is a very good reason why Expose isn't as favored as it is.

Again, forcing VI Dash to either use his boost or barrel roll is a win. Quite a few people are saying that you won't always be able to be in the hole. But, forcing him to use his actions to get a ship into firing range is a win. A HLC is nice, but there is a very good reason why Expose isn't as favored as it is.

I agree if I'm going to be shot at with a HLC, I don't want a focus to asset it. If you are being shot at by an unfocused HLC and you don't get to shot back at it, is just plan bad. The Barrel Roll can easily move you out of arcs and I'll take that exchange all game long as the YT-2400. The easiest way to keep the Outrider in sight is to keep it in the widest point of your arc and that is at range 3. By doing that you give the upper hand for the HLC as the Outrider will be getting the defense bonus while you will not. the closer you get to it the narrower your arc becomes and that Barrel Roll can escape it. More then a few times I opted to park Dash on an astroid to keep out of all arcs and just take a shot with Chewbacca.

Always give Dash the initiative with a phantom. Who cares if he fires first when you're hiding in the hole?

Yes, by moving after Dash you have a better chance of getting into that blind spot. If you fail to do it once, you'll be hit with a brick, twice and it's likely the end of that phantom. My advice would be to take Sensor Jammer on your Phantoms so if the Outrider has to Barrel Roll to keep a shot you have a good defense vs that HLC shot. It will also help vs the Fat Falcons as they more often then not evade for their action.

Now lets consider the option to fly a 40pt Phantom in the meta that is likely to come with wave 5. So we are going to have Fat Falcons, HLC+Outrider and Decimators running amuck. all of these thing spell trouble for the Soontirs and Whispers of the world. If that is not enough to convince you to leave the Phantom at home, good luck!

I can see all the exciting Dash vs. Dash tournament matches now! Yawn...

At first the shiny new toy will see a lot of play. It is a very good combo and the meta will shift to compensate for it's existence. Thankfully FFG has kept things balanced in this game and the answers are out there for such builds. The Meta may be finally at a paper rock scissors format. The swarm will dominate if to many people move away from phantom builds and pick up Fat Falcons and Outriders. If swarms become to dominate the Phantom will come and put the swarm back down, only to reintroduce the flying saucers back on top. The squad you decide to play will mean more to your success in a tournament then ever before.

So this has me thinking, what is the counter to HLC Outrider + support?

• Swarm beats Fat Falcon because all the dice chew through C-3P0 Falcon quickly.
• Phantom beats Swarm because of maneuverability and 2 attack dice rolling at 4 defense dice
• Fat Falcon beats Phantom because turrets negate maneuverability, although gunner or higher PS is required to be a true counter.

So lets look at the HLC Outrider.

• HLC Outrider vs. Fat Falcon: depends on the support, but if HLC Outrider stays at range then it should have the advantage. HLC + Outrider + Fat Falcon should beat most wave 4 Fat Falcon lists.
• HLC Outrider vs. Phantom: will depend on PS and maneuvering. PS9 Dash can still keep Whisper out of range 1. PS7 Dash loaded up with PtL + Kyle will be a monster and easily hard counter the Phantom, if it can stay out of range 1. Support blockers will be key here.
• HLC Outrider vs. Swarm: I'm not sure about this one, actually. It'll depend on the support the HLC Outrider has. If the Outrider can fly around the edge of the swarm at range, it'll be hard for the swarm to pin it down. Dash actually has the maneuverability advantage here, especially in obstacle fields.

So, I'm not really sure that HLC Outrider lumps in with Fat Falcon, even though both are large base ships. Fat Falcon works as an end game closer because the 2 armor is a non linear effect. HLC Outrider is just a stat beast during the entire game, that wants to stay at range 3. 10 HP behind 3 agility, on a moving turret platform that can run through obstacles is really a pain to deal with.

That extra Agility over a Falcon makes a huge difference vs swarms. Against an 8 TIE swarm, it's an extra 3 HP per turn, although that is the most extreme case.

But the more guns you turn on that ship (without killing yourself to block it) the better. A good Howlrunner squad will make short work of the Outrider with a good chance of only losing 1 tie in the process. Forget the blind spot, as simply as you can put it

"it's a trap"

Again, forcing VI Dash to either use his boost or barrel roll is a win. Quite a few people are saying that you won't always be able to be in the hole. But, forcing him to use his actions to get a ship into firing range is a win. A HLC is nice, but there is a very good reason why Expose isn't as favored as it is.

I agree if I'm going to be shot at with a HLC, I don't want a focus to asset it. If you are being shot at by an unfocused HLC and you don't get to shot back at it, is just plan bad. The Barrel Roll can easily move you out of arcs and I'll take that exchange all game long as the YT-2400. The easiest way to keep the Outrider in sight is to keep it in the widest point of your arc and that is at range 3. By doing that you give the upper hand for the HLC as the Outrider will be getting the defense bonus while you will not. the closer you get to it the narrower your arc becomes and that Barrel Roll can escape it. More then a few times I opted to park Dash on an astroid to keep out of all arcs and just take a shot with Chewbacca.

Always give Dash the initiative with a phantom. Who cares if he fires first when you're hiding in the hole?

Yes, by moving after Dash you have a better chance of getting into that blind spot. If you fail to do it once, you'll be hit with a brick, twice and it's likely the end of that phantom. My advice would be to take Sensor Jammer on your Phantoms so if the Outrider has to Barrel Roll to keep a shot you have a good defense vs that HLC shot. It will also help vs the Fat Falcons as they more often then not evade for their action.

Now lets consider the option to fly a 40pt Phantom in the meta that is likely to come with wave 5. So we are going to have Fat Falcons, HLC+Outrider and Decimators running amuck. all of these thing spell trouble for the Soontirs and Whispers of the world. If that is not enough to convince you to leave the Phantom at home, good luck!

Regarding your last question, it's really about whether those ships will be worse for the phantom than the current YT builds, since they're pretty prevalent already. If they end up being more challenging, then that will affect the phantom. If they are comparable, it's just going to be replacing the same challenge with a different flavor. I definitely see the Dash+Outrider+HCL as being stronger against a phantom, though.

As for interceptors, and elite interceptors, I know this isn't the status quo opinion, but I have not had trouble facing falcons with them and am not too worried about the Decimator. The outrider with HCL may present a different problem, but I'm interested to see. Either way, I'm looking forward to what Alex and Frank hinted at regarding interceptors and an upgrade vs. turrets once S+V is released -- too bad whatever it is it won't be an option for World's.

Maybe my visualization is off, but I'm not seeing a great ability to dodge with the new barrel roll rules for large bases.

Still, as interesting as Wave 5 is going to be, I am really, really excited to see how the Scum stuff shakes things up.

Maybe my visualization is off, but I'm not seeing a great ability to dodge with the new barrel roll rules for large bases.

Still, as interesting as Wave 5 is going to be, I am really, really excited to see how the Scum stuff shakes things up.

On my next game on Vassal, I will take screen shots or real game situations of the ability of the YT-2400 to arc dodge.

Its great against shuttles! ;-)