Isn't this the squad the US national winner was flying?

Yes.

This is probably the single most talked-about list at the moment. There has been tons of detailed discussion about it from both its creator and its opponents.

The best discussion I've heard is a podcast interview with the list's creator Rick Sidebotham HERE.

There's a really great post by Sidebotham (aka D4rkt3pl4r) where he talks about strategy HERE (scroll down to post #15).

There's a discussion from the opponent's perspective by the 2nd place player Jeff HERE - he was playing an amazing two-falcon build at the final table against this list.

We're all waiting for Team Covenant to post a video of the game and a video interview with Sidebotham.

And that's what I don't get.

Why does everyone automatically assume that if a squad wins a big tournament it must be a semibroken superlist that instantly should become the "new meta"? Is it an ingrained mentality from playing unbalanced games?

If this hadn't won GenCon it would have been completely dismissed as an average list. This assumption that there must be something giving it an edge that anyone picking it up can use is nuts. It's a normal list in a balanced game that was played by a very good player who through a combination of good luck and great skill won GenCon with it. It does something unusual (K-turning phantoms and PTL interceptors with their full dial) and that's its strength: it's not a netdeck and has the advantage of surprise. Why can't people accept the GenCon winner is simply a good player and the game is balanced?

Hell, if someone flew four TIE advanceds and won Gencon I bet TIE Advanced Swarm would suddenly be everywhere.

I am not sure what you are getting so excited about. I don't recall anyone saying or implying that (1) Sidebotham's list is inherently superior to all other lists or (2) Sidebotham is not a "very good player". As a matter of fact Sidebotham himself pointed out his list's weaknesses and the fact that he lost a number of games during the qualifiers.

In contrast to your view, I think this list is so discussed precisely because it was so surprising that a three-ship imperial build (with a shuttle!) could perform so well in a highly competitive setting populated by very creative and talented players.

Also - I think your implication that all lists are balanced and equal is misguided. Some lists and combos are clearly more effective in many circumstances than others. Meaning, if players of equal skill were to field two different lists across replicated games there are situations where one list would predominantly prevail. Of course we can't do this actual experiment - the closest we can get are the tournaments where the top 32 or 16 players are almost certainly all very skilled players. But in any case I think most players would agree some lists and combos are better than others.

Lastly - I think that there are two major facets to player skill - (1) list building and (2) flying. I think by dismissing Sidebotham's (and others') skills at constructing creative and powerful lists you are being somewhat disrespectful. You should listen to Sidebotham's interview on Nova Squadron Radio - he put a lot of time and thought into this squad. Great work, I think. Definitely better than "average". Show some respect, dude!

I think the GenCon runner-up list is more generally terrifying than the one that won.

Isn't this the squad the US national winner was flying?

Yes.

This is probably the single most talked-about list at the moment. There has been tons of detailed discussion about it from both its creator and its opponents.

The best discussion I've heard is a podcast interview with the list's creator Rick Sidebotham HERE.

There's a really great post by Sidebotham (aka D4rkt3pl4r) where he talks about strategy HERE (scroll down to post #15).

There's a discussion from the opponent's perspective by the 2nd place player Jeff HERE - he was playing an amazing two-falcon build at the final table against this list.

We're all waiting for Team Covenant to post a video of the game and a video interview with Sidebotham.

And that's what I don't get.

Why does everyone automatically assume that if a squad wins a big tournament it must be a semibroken superlist that instantly should become the "new meta"? Is it an ingrained mentality from playing unbalanced games?

If this hadn't won GenCon it would have been completely dismissed as an average list. This assumption that there must be something giving it an edge that anyone picking it up can use is nuts. It's a normal list in a balanced game that was played by a very good player who through a combination of good luck and great skill won GenCon with it. It does something unusual (K-turning phantoms and PTL interceptors with their full dial) and that's its strength: it's not a netdeck and has the advantage of surprise. Why can't people accept the GenCon winner is simply a good player and the game is balanced?

Hell, if someone flew four TIE advanceds and won Gencon I bet TIE Advanced Swarm would suddenly be everywhere.

You are both right and not so right.

Rick is a solid player. He rarely makes mistakes when he plays and always comes in with a good plan of attack for winning matches. Not to mention he's a really great guy. So as far as list piloting goes, he is certainly someone who could put this sort of list to great use. That was the "right" portion.

As far as the list only being average, this is not so right. If you look at it more closely, Whisper and Fel have all the makings of pilots thay can pull wins out of their assess. PS 9 and great abilities give you the tools you need to succeed, and these pilots can outmanuever and out play better than any other pilot. They can outmanuever all lower PS Ints, Phantoms, or any non turret ship that might have put on Engine Upgrade and expert handling, and this is solely by being PS 9 and using decloak and boost/barrel roll to dodge arcs.

With this in mind, the ships DO have weaknesses.

Weakness 1: Stress mechanics that prevent free cloak from ACD, such as Rebel Captive or R3A2 on Wes + VI, can make it difficult for the Whisper. For Fel, stress is still bad, as it means you cant barrel roll and boost in the same round and still shoot at that Rebel Captive Firespray without becoming double stressed. Sure, you get the focus, but it means at SOME point you will be less manueverable, whether it is choosing not to do 2 movement actions, or being double stressed for a turn, which can be a killer. To counter this, as well as open the possibilities of K Turning or using more than just 2 turn on Fel, we bring in Yorr. Yorr fixes this glaring weakness in Phantom and PTL Interceptor lists. Not to mention, he is a 3/4 dice gun, a big road block, a damage sponge. Even when he isn't taking in stress, he is likely left alone while your opponent tries to catch Fel and Whisper, and if you REALLY think about it, if you get Yorr to shoot every turn, then he is equally as deadly as Fel, and in this list, he can be easily forgotten, making it easy for the shuttle to get into a chasing position, or a blocking position.

Weakness 2: Han + VI + Gunner. As you might guess, and I don't need to explain why. However, it really isn't a HUGE problem for THIS list, as Rick fixes some of the weaknesses by 1, picking Soontir Fel. His ability to get 2 Focus tokens and an Evade token means he is the best probably interceptor pilot for fighting turrets with Gunner, and/or he always has a focus for offense and defense. 2, Whisper can negate some of the PS 11 turrets effectiveness by taking the Evade action. This way he can't be 1 shot easily, and at range 2/3, has pretty good odds of preventing 2 damage, leaving Whisper at least 4 turns to live, 3 of them shooting. The usual tradeoff is taking evade hurts your offense. FCS + Gunner combo shores up this weakness by giving you some really great odds of pulling off a hard hitting attack. If youve never flown the Buzzsaw shuttle, you don't know what youre missing. The combo gives you freedom to take any action and not miss out on offense. Also makes it easy to set up TL + F shots. Im a big fan. With a 3 ship list, you cant have bad red dice, and this combo helps negate that possibility.

Overall, I will say that the list is more finely crafted than some might think at first glance, with upgrade and pilot choices that help against lists you are weak against. This sort of list building strategy is no different than a 4 ship Rebel list including stress mechanics to stop Phantoms from murdering them.

Sorry Rick if I stole your thunder for speaking for you or anything. I mean no offense to anyone, and please correct me if I'm wrong. These are just the sorts of thoughts I've had about this list, and in general, the lists I've been building. And as always, I ramble on a lot these days. You should hear my wife complain it.

I think the GenCon runner-up list is more generally terrifying than the one that won.

Yeah!

It sounds like one of the keys to defeating it was using the shuttle to block the falcons and thus deny them their actions through collisions. Can't wait to see the video!

Back to the OP - thinking about how to defeat a Soontir, Yorr, Fel squad I think one of the keys is predicting the route of the shuttle a few turns ahead so it doesn't get in the way of your phantom hunting.

Thanks for the shout out Lagomorphia! Rick was a great interview!

I agree, that interview at the end was great. I'm not just plugging it because Ed graciously invited me onto the show either - there's some good stuff in Rick's interview!

I just added the rest of these links, that I had missed, to the Nationals thread under the Saturday Finals spoiler tab. Thanks for the reminder.

Also - I think your implication that all lists are balanced and equal is misguided. Some lists and combos are clearly more effective in many circumstances than others. Meaning, if players of equal skill were to field two different lists across replicated games there are situations where one list would predominantly prevail. Of course we can't do this actual experiment - the closest we can get are the tournaments where the top 32 or 16 players are almost certainly all very skilled players. But in any case I think most players would agree some lists and combos are better than others.

Lastly - I think that there are two major facets to player skill - (1) list building and (2) flying. I think by dismissing Sidebotham's (and others') skills at constructing creative and powerful lists you are being somewhat disrespectful. You should listen to Sidebotham's interview on Nova Squadron Radio - he put a lot of time and thought into this squad. Great work, I think. Definitely better than "average". Show some respect, dude!

Quite the opposite, I have no doubt that Sidebotham put a great deal of thought into his list and customising it to his play style, and it paid off with a championship win. Because he actually built a list rather than doing what far too many players do and copy it off the Top X rankings and expect it to work.

Of course not all lists are equal but game balance means that a very large number of combinations are viable. There seems to be an ingrained mindset that list building >>> gameplay skill which I suspect comes from broken wargames such as what Games Workshop pumps out nowadays where unless it's netdeck on netdeck the actual game is little more than a formality. GenCon had amazing diversity which is pretty good evidence that this is a balanced game where a huge variety of combinations are viable. We don't get the same lists coming up over and over because they actually are that much better, it's because once a list wins a tournament people get the idea that it's better than all the other lists, copy it, and drive diversity through the floor.

A three ship Imperial build with a Lambda shuttle in it won the US national. I'd have hoped that would be taken as proof that netdecking doesn't grant an advantage and that flying something other people aren't is an advantage in of itself. If instead slight variations on this multiply out of control until they're as everywhere as XXBB was then what hope is there?

I really, really hope GenCon is a sign of things of come rather than a blip on the netdeck radar. I really do.

Netlisting will only get you so far but in tournaments pairings and dice also play a pretty big factor.

It's people who don't play in tournaments who don't realise this, and that's where the majority of the hee-hawing comes from.

It sounds like one of the keys to defeating it was using the shuttle to block the falcons and thus deny them their actions through collisions. Can't wait to see the video!

That final round was actually a very good matchup for Rick. Jeff's falcons were set up as tanks (probably the best tanks I have ever seen), but they lacked the punch to meaningfully threaten Soontir and Whisper. Rick got an additional advantage in the late/midgame when both falcons bumped the shuttle two rounds in a row, but but Rick had the guns to get past the Chewie/Threepio/Artoo/Falcon defense, and Jeff lacked the offensive upgrades (and/or pilot skill) to deal with cloak/focus/evade on Whisper.

It would have taken a lot for the falcons to pull this one off. I'm not saying it couldn't happen, but it would have been a surprise. Likewise, if Paul and his Fat Han build had made the final instead, it would have been a very difficult game for Rick.

Of course, I finished in the middle of the pack, and I didn't even stay at a Holiday Inn Express, so take my analysis for what it's worth.